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[Heeden]

wantedman dan wrote...

By completely coming out of left-field and having no precedent in the lore.

Sure, it might by Syfy channel standards for their d-rate movies.

When you consider the psychic abilities of Asari and Protheans, and the way synthetics work by consensus, you can find reasonable ways for Synthesis to function.

Eezo on the other hand is not only made out of space-magic, the way it functions should not produce the alleged results.

[Fawx9]

Hackulator wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Everything in Mass Effect is Space Magic. Biotics, Mass Relays, FTL, Telepathy, Resurrection....it is ALL space magic, and people who say things like "oh well element zero explains it" are being retarded, cause all element zero is is more space magic.

It's space magic grounded within the confines of the story.

Every story requires some suspension of disbelief in order to work. We signed up with everything you mentioned being explained in some way within the story. This helped our suspension of disbelief to be set at a certain level.

The green wave of feelings, unicorns, rainbows and energy destorys it. It's nowhere close to what we had preparred for. The worst of it is that it happens at the very end with no build up, so of course most people are going WTF.

I don't get why this is such a hard concept to understand, if a story teller goes to far of course they're going to get people calling their story ridiculous.

The Crucible was part of the story for the entire third game, and throughout the game you learn that it is the combined work of EVERY cycle that has ever existed. Every type of technology that was ever created, every kind of thought process that a living being has ever had, all have gone into the creation of the Crucible. The resources of every species currently part of the Galactic community have gone into building it. So, how is that a less significans background for understanding than, for example, "eezo makes it work"?

The curcible throught the game was referred to as a repaer off switch with unknown effects. That led me to believe it was an anti reaper gun of some sort or something that weakend them.

There is nothing to prepare you for the Synthesis ending. There is no forshadowing, nothing. I don't see how introducing this grand concept of DNA altering magic firing wave of greeness in the last 5 minutes is anywehre close to the same as learning about biotics, reapers and such throughout 3 full games.

[RiouHotaru]

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

[wantedman dan]

RiouHotaru wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

By completely coming out of left-field and having no precedent in the lore.

Saren

EDI

The Geth/Quarian conflict

The Rogue AI sidequest in ME1

Project Overlord



That seems like precedent in lore to me...

Yes, remind me where each of those had organic DNA transfigured into biosynthetic parts at the molecuar level, oh and how synthetics suddenly had organic components.

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

Maybe the understanding each other part(which we were appoching on our own anyways). The part where it fires a giant green energy wave that can modify everything in the galaxy at a molecular level. No, just no. There was nothing in the story that even comes close to that level of absurdness.

[Ryzaki]

Fawx9 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

Maybe the understanding each other part(which we were appoching on our own anyways). The part where it fires a giant green energy wave that can modify everything in the galaxy at a molecular level. No, just no. There was nothing in the story that even comes close to that level of absurdness.

This.

The game was going towards Synthetics and Organics remaining themselves but reaching an understanding.

That's...not Synthesis.

[wantedman dan]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

By completely coming out of left-field and having no precedent in the lore.

Sure, it might by Syfy channel standards for their d-rate movies.

When you consider the psychic abilities of Asari and Protheans, and the way synthetics work by consensus, you can find reasonable ways for Synthesis to function.

Eezo on the other hand is not only made out of space-magic, the way it functions should not produce the alleged results.

It works and has precedent in the universe.

False equivalency, btw.

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, the game was moving towards the differences between organics and synthetics and how it causes problems.

Synthesis was the solution that couldn't be reached through conventional means.

[mauro2222]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

You're misunderstanding what synthesis does, and what is required to finish such conflicts.

Synthesis grants understanding to synthetics, but it doesn't grant acceptance to organics, wich is the core of the problem. Organics lack acceptance towards synthetics.

Modifié par mauro2222, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:15 .

[Heeden]

wantedman dan wrote...

Yes, remind me where each of those had organic DNA transfigured into biosynthetic parts at the molecuar level, oh and how synthetics suddenly had organic components.

At what point do synthetics get organic components in Synthesis?

[Ryzaki]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually, the game was moving towards the differences between organics and synthetics and how it causes problems.

Synthesis was the solution that couldn't be reached through conventional means.

Yeah I don't agree on that. No more than the game showed any other kind of conflict through differences (like the Krogan, and the Rachni and so on).

Nope. Still not seeing the series as remotely pushing Synthesis until the last 10 minutes of ME3.

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually, the game was moving towards the differences between organics and synthetics and how it causes problems.

Synthesis was the solution that couldn't be reached through conventional means.

Cause I don't have an organic and synthetic in love aboard my ship, and the Geth don't become allies and good friends with the Quarians? Oh wait, I do and the Geth are helping rebuild. Until the last 5 minutes all we've been doing is understanding and learning more about each other.

[Torrible]

Fawx9 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

Maybe the understanding each other part(which we were appoching on our own anyways). The part where it fires a giant green energy wave that can modify everything in the galaxy at a molecular level. No, just no. There was nothing in the story that even comes close to that level of absurdness.

Maybe precedent isn't the best word. More like foreshadowing.

[Heeden]

wantedman dan wrote...

It works and has precedent in the universe.

False equivalency, btw.

Eezo is a magic material that turns people in to wizards and breaks the laws of physics in several ways that defy the definition of how it works. As soon as you read the description you should have realised magic was going to be an intrinsic part of the game, look at all the flashy spell-effects eezo technology features.

[RiouHotaru]

Torrible wrote...
Maybe precedent isn't the best word. More like foreshadowing.

Yeah, good point.  More foreshadowing and setting up an idea.

[wantedman dan]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Yes, remind me where each of those had organic DNA transfigured into biosynthetic parts at the molecuar level, oh and how synthetics suddenly had organic components.

At what point do synthetics get organic components in Synthesis?

The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.

[savionen]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

It works and has precedent in the universe.

False equivalency, btw.

Eezo is a magic material that turns people in to wizards and breaks the laws of physics in several ways that defy the definition of how it works. As soon as you read the description you should have realised magic was going to be an intrinsic part of the game, look at all the flashy spell-effects eezo technology features.

Not everything is magic. Thanix cannons certainly are not. Eezo is also there at hour one of the first game. Synthesis is on a much much larger scale and pops up in the last 10 minutes.

Modifié par savionen, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:20 .

[Fawx9]

Torrible wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's break this apart as they come.

Saren: Complete failure. Implants were used as mind control by Reapers. He died a puppet. Hell if you talk some sense into him he kills himself because he knows he's a puppet.

EDI: Isn't Synthesis in the least. Her bodies synthetic. Her forming attachment =/= synthesis. It = cooperation and understanding.

Geth Quarian conflict: Both Geth and Quarians...remain Geth and Quarians. The geth deciding to upload into the Quarians suits and help them with their immune systems doesn't make them similar beings. They cooperate IN SPITE OF their differences. They don't get rid of them. Not synthesis.

Project Overlord: Same. An attempted cooperation inspite of differences (well more like an attemtped control but still David was clearly organic only his mind was being used in an attempt to control the Geth via virtual interaction). Plus it was a massive failure because David couldn't handle the sensory output that the hordes of Geth were putting out.

But the fact those examples exist sets a precedent for the idea of Synthesis in the lore, regardless of how they turned out.

Maybe the understanding each other part(which we were appoching on our own anyways). The part where it fires a giant green energy wave that can modify everything in the galaxy at a molecular level. No, just no. There was nothing in the story that even comes close to that level of absurdness.

Maybe precedent isn't the best word. More like foreshadowing.

Maybe I mis-phrased it, but my point was that it only foreshadows the understandning and cohabitating part of Synthesis. Those examples do nothing to foreshadow a magical DNA alterating wave at a galactic scale.

So while I agree synthesis speeds up the understadning process, it does it in the most rediculous and absurd way possible(actually thats a lie, I'm sure theres more silly ways that could have been thought of, but you would need to try really hard).

Modifié par Fawx9, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[wantedman dan]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

It works and has precedent in the universe.

False equivalency, btw.

Eezo is a magic material that turns people in to wizards and breaks the laws of physics in several ways that defy the definition of how it works. As soon as you read the description you should have realised magic was going to be an intrinsic part of the game, look at all the flashy spell-effects eezo technology features.

Which has precedent in the universe and works. As long as you keep arguing the same points over and over again, I'm going to counter with the same retort.

[Heeden]

wantedman dan wrote...

The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Yes...that doesn't include the phrase "...and give organic components to synthetic life too."

The Catalyst explains the beam alters the matrix of all organic life, allowing them to integrate fully with technology. Through this Synthetics will gain understanding of organics and the fundamental incompatibility which he believes makes conflict inevitable will be gone.

There's no explanation of what this matrix actually is, although one definition has it as an array of information which could tie in to the source of Asari/Prothean psychic powers.

[Heeden]

savionen wrote...

Not everything is magic. Thanix cannons certainly are not. Eezo is also there at hour one of the first game. Synthesis is on a much much larger scale and pops up in the last 10 minutes.

That's kind of my point, the game kicks off saying that space-ships fly by magic and this guy is a wizard. Finding out more stuff is achieved through magic later on shouldn't be a surprise.

[wantedman dan]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Yes...that doesn't include the phrase "...and give organic components to synthetic life too."

The Catalyst explains the beam alters the matrix of all organic life, allowing them to integrate fully with technology. Through this Synthetics will gain understanding of organics and the fundamental incompatibility which he believes makes conflict inevitable will be gone.

There's no explanation of what this matrix actually is, although one definition has it as an array of information which could tie in to the source of Asari/Prothean psychic powers.

So basically, you've headcannoned that Synthetics aren't even affected by synthesis on the physical level, despite all synthetic and organic life being combined into a new framework and DNA. I see.

[Torrible]

Shepard's journey is one that is thematically pointing towards Synthesis. In ME1, he was disgusted with the notion of Synthesis. "I'd rather die than live like that!" The Geth were definitely regarded as the enemy.

In ME2, he died and was 'reborn' with technology replacing some of his vital organs. Like it or not, he had become part synthetic. Met Legion and gained a nearly completely different notion of what the Geth (uncorrupted) truly are. He had become friends with a Geth.

In ME3, he guided EDI in her search for a moral identity. Even before the 'mad dash towards the beam', she credited him for being the one who made her feel truly alive. Met up with Legion who connected him to the Geth's virtual world. There, he saw how the Geth-Quarian conflict started. The experience planted the seeds of a desire to end all organic/synthetic conflicts. Soon after, he had achieved something no one else ever had; he united the Geth and Quarians once and for all.

[DGMockingJay]

Heeden wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

It works and has precedent in the universe.

False equivalency, btw.

Eezo is a magic material that turns people in to wizards and breaks the laws of physics in several ways that defy the definition of how it works. As soon as you read the description you should have realised magic was going to be an intrinsic part of the game, look at all the flashy spell-effects eezo technology features.

The universe of Mass Effect is defined. And Eezo is capable of creating mass effect, and it is so important to the story, that the developers named the game after it. It is the CORE of the game, and is well established technology in last 2 games.

Just because it is a sci fi, doesn't mean u can create anything out of air, and label it as advanced technology. It has to look coherent and in universe. U have rules in the world, and u have to exercise restraints on how to bend the science u have. U cant bend them too much and too often that they start appearing as contrivences, just to move ur plot further.

Imagine, in last Harry Potter book, Dumbledoor came back from the dead, picked up a wooden stick from the ground, and magicaly turned it into a wand, equivalent or maybe better than the Elder wand, so Harry can use it to killl Voldemort. Now, U can argue that it is very much possible, even though u are told a thousand time before that people dont come back from the dead. Since its a world of magic. Anything CAN be done in this world by magic. But that did not happen. Since it would look like Muggle Science, which is equivalent of Space Magic in HP universe. It is a cheap way to end ur story, and it looks lame!!

Modifié par DGMockingJay, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Synthesis is just a big headache.

"We tried before, but you can't force the change."
"In other news, YOU CAN FORCE THE CHANGE NOW!"

What?
Building a battery doesn't mean anyone is ready to have integrated WiFi, nor bluetooth, nor anything.

Also considering that mostly everything in the universe has some form of explanation as fitting a work of SciFi:
"Eezo, allows us to muck around with mass. Allows FTL, Artificial Gravity, Kinetic Weaponry, shields, biotic powers, etc."

Some things, like FTL, are more "hard" SciFi because the explanation doesn't leave out much. Biotics are "softer" because it's a bit washy from a reality standpoint, but the explanation is still there. The "Science" has been properly mixed with the "Fiction."

Synthesis goes full retard and ditches the science completely and goes full Fantasy.