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[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

I respectfully disagree, watch the scene where they are placing Shepherd's name on the memorial wall in the Synthesis ending, EDI express emotion and is almost shown crying.  Compared to the Control ending this is a massive change.  

The Synthesis beam alters the matrix of all organic life, allowing them to fully integrate with Synthetics. This in turn allows Synthetics to fully understand organics. The change to Synthetics comes from Organics, the change to Organics comes from Shepard's organice energy.

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well sir, there are two reason's why people call the the Catalyst out.  The first is his assertion is that they harvest all Organic life (and Synthetic life according to the EC) and store it in Reaper form.  This is dissproved by the conversations of Sovereign and Harbinger and the Collector's existence.

What do Sovereign and Harbinger say exactly that disproves what the Catalyst says about the harvest? It is supported by statements from EDI and Legion.

The second fact is the Catalyst's existence.  His existence pretty much nullifies the entire plot of Mass Effect 1.  By his own admission, he was an AI who reaped his creators and now guides them on the murderous killing sprees. So now instead of the Citadel being the Reaper Gateway to the universe, it is now the Reaper Overmind.

Again, how does his existence nullify the plot of ME1?

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

I respectfully disagree, watch the scene where they are placing Shepherd's name on the memorial wall in the Synthesis ending, EDI express emotion and is almost shown crying.  Compared to the Control ending this is a massive change.  

The Synthesis beam alters the matrix of all organic life, allowing them to fully integrate with Synthetics. This in turn allows Synthetics to fully understand organics. The change to Synthetics comes from Organics, the change to Organics comes from Shepard's organice energy.

Remind me again how understanding Organics would change Synthetics.  Just because they can say "Oh, thats why Organics cry" does not mean that they would in turn actaully produce real emotion.  You can understand a lot of things, that does not mean they change you, sorry.  

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Remind me again how understanding Organics would change Synthetics.  Just because they can say "Oh, thats why Organics cry" does not mean that they would in turn actaully produce real emotion.  You can understand a lot of things, that does not mean they change you, sorry.  

EDI is constantly trying to understand organics and emulate them, the understanding she gains after Synthesis "perfects" her understanding. EDI learns how to be a real girl.

In fact I'm more surprised she isn't the same way in Control given her little speech about being "alive" thanks to Shepard (as his furthering her understanding allowed her to change). Either she was alive but had no idea of grief pre-Synth, or they made a difference in the endings for dramatic effect.

(Actually having just checked the videos on youTube they are identical until the name is placed on the wall, at which point Control fades out).

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well sir, there are two reason's why people call the the Catalyst out.  The first is his assertion is that they harvest all Organic life (and Synthetic life according to the EC) and store it in Reaper form.  This is dissproved by the conversations of Sovereign and Harbinger and the Collector's existence.

What do Sovereign and Harbinger say exactly that disproves what the Catalyst says about the harvest? It is supported by statements from EDI and Legion.

The second fact is the Catalyst's existence.  His existence pretty much nullifies the entire plot of Mass Effect 1.  By his own admission, he was an AI who reaped his creators and now guides them on the murderous killing sprees. So now instead of the Citadel being the Reaper Gateway to the universe, it is now the Reaper Overmind.

Again, how does his existence nullify the plot of ME1?

First:

Sovereign: "Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

Harbinger:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Wow...they really want to ascend ALL advanced civilizations.


Second:

How does it not? Let's recap, shall we?  Sovererign needs to manually activate the Citadel's Relay becuase the his command to the Keeper's did not work.  So he gathers an army of Geth led by Saren to get him to the Citadel to try manually open the relay.  Now IF the Catalyst is the Reaper Overmind and the Citadel is "a part of him" why is Soveriegn needed?  Oh wait, I know, he isnt. 

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:04 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Agreed. People are pretty phony about this one.


Let's be honest, "suspension of disbelief" is only broken here because people want to reject the ending. Not the science, because Bioware has played fast and loose with science since ME1, and it only got worse in ME2.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Remind me again how understanding Organics would change Synthetics.  Just because they can say "Oh, thats why Organics cry" does not mean that they would in turn actaully produce real emotion.  You can understand a lot of things, that does not mean they change you, sorry.  

EDI is constantly trying to understand organics and emulate them, the understanding she gains after Synthesis "perfects" her understanding. EDI learns how to be a real girl.

In fact I'm more surprised she isn't the same way in Control given her little speech about being "alive" thanks to Shepard (as his furthering her understanding allowed her to change). Either she was alive but had no idea of grief pre-Synth, or they made a difference in the endings for dramatic effect.

(Actually having just checked the videos on youTube they are identical until the name is placed on the wall, at which point Control fades out).

My point is that there is a major difference between in Synthesis AI and Control AI.  In fact, lets see what EDI said during the Synthesis ending:

EDI: I am Alive.  All of us, Synthetic and Organic have been changed.

Synths were changed directly in the ending, case closed. 

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

First:

Sovereign: "Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

Those don't contradict the Catalyst and all are true except possibly the empty words one, which could be hyperbole.

Harbinger:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Wow...they really want to ascend ALL advanced civilizations.

Wasn't that assessment for creating a sovereign-class Reaper? I'm sure only some races are suitable for the larger Reapers and the rest become lesser-types like the destroyers.

Second:

How does it not? Let's recap, shall we?  Sovererign needs to manually activate the Citadel's Relay becuase the his command to the Keeper's did not work.  So he gathers an army of Geth led by Saren to get him to the Citadel to try manually open the relay.  Now IF the Catalyst is the Reaper Overmind and the Citadel is "a part of him" why is Soveriegn needed?  Oh wait, I know, he isnt. 

Because that's how it works, the Reapers enact the cycle. Possibly the Catalyst is in hibernation like the Reapers in dark space, or maybe he has a hands-off policy.

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

My point is that there is a major difference between in Synthesis AI and Control AI.  In fact, lets see what EDI said during the Synthesis ending:

EDI: I am Alive.  All of us, Synthetic and Organic have been changed.

Synths were changed directly in the ending, case closed. 

Yes, Synthesis changed Organics, Organics changed Synthetics. All of us are changed. None of that requires Shepards organic-energy to affect Synthetics, particularly not causing them to grow organic parts which is the point I was arguing against in the first place.

Edit: I'll add that I have no problem with the idea of Synthesis affecting Synthetics directly, pre-EC I figured Shepard's energy would be the source of them learning to be "alive" but the Catalyst's words killed that idea.

Modifié par Heeden, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:24 .

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

First:

Sovereign: "Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."

Those don't contradict the Catalyst and all are true except possibly the empty words one, which could be hyperbole.

Harbinger:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Wow...they really want to ascend ALL advanced civilizations.

Wasn't that assessment for creating a sovereign-class Reaper? I'm sure only some races are suitable for the larger Reapers and the rest become lesser-types like the destroyers.

Second:

How does it not? Let's recap, shall we?  Sovererign needs to manually activate the Citadel's Relay becuase the his command to the Keeper's did not work.  So he gathers an army of Geth led by Saren to get him to the Citadel to try manually open the relay.  Now IF the Catalyst is the Reaper Overmind and the Citadel is "a part of him" why is Soveriegn needed?  Oh wait, I know, he isnt. 

Because that's how it works, the Reapers enact the cycle. Possibly the Catalyst is in hibernation like the Reapers in dark space, or maybe he has a hands-off policy.

1. Man, that "Vangaurd of Destruction" bit" sounded like he really cared about us and just wanted to save us from those  evil robots we can never undstand. 

2. True, but if this is always the case, why do the Collector's exist?  They should have been Destroyer'fied when they were no longer good enough to be a Sovereirgn.  In fact instead of making a different Reaper with them, they just made them into better husks!  Sounds like they really care about preserving the Protheans!

3.  Oh, so now the Catalyst, the GUIDING FORCE behind everything the Reaper's do can not enact his own cycle?  He Reaped the first Reaper into Existence and yet he can not start his own cycle?

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:34 .

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

My point is that there is a major difference between in Synthesis AI and Control AI.  In fact, lets see what EDI said during the Synthesis ending:

EDI: I am Alive.  All of us, Synthetic and Organic have been changed.

Synths were changed directly in the ending, case closed. 

Yes, Synthesis changed Organics, Organics changed Synthetics. All of us are changed. None of that requires Shepards organic-energy to affect Synthetics, particularly not causing them to grow organic parts which is the point I was arguing against in the first place.

Edit: I'll add that I have no problem with the idea of Synthesis affecting Synthetics directly, pre-EC I figured Shepard's energy would be the source of them learning to be "alive" but the Catalyst's words killed that idea.

Aye and there is the problem.  How can the Cruicible, stated as not being able to discriminate between Super-AI like Reapers and Geth, be able to discriminate between Organcis and Synthetics.

[Eluril]

Synthesis, The Reapers, The Crucible, the Citadel, the Catalyst......all of this is meant to represent technology a quantum leap beyond our own, probably a billion years of advance beyond what is seen in the ME "mainstream" universe. It is at the same level as the Black Oil in Prometheus or the Monoliths in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Science and technology advanced to an almost "spiritual" level. I thought enough of the ME universe was totally grounded to make it plausible while also given enough flexibility to remain interesting and mysterious and inspiring.

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1. Man, that "Vangaurd of Destruction" bit" sounded like he really cared about us and just wanted to save us from those evil robots.

Plain fact with a touch of the dramatic, and he didn't want to save "us" from evil robots. He actually wanted to Harvest "us" as  part of the Catalyst's solution.

2. True, but if this is always the case, why do the Collector's exist?  They should have been Destroyer'fied when they were no longer good enough to be a Sovereirgn.  In fact instead of making a different Reaper with them, they just made them into better husks!  Sounds like they really care about preserving the Protheans!

If you have any other info on the Collectors/Protheans I'd like to see it, but as far as I know it is unknown whether there was any Prothean Reapers created or if the Collectors were the only way they were preserved.

3.  Oh, so now the Catalyst, the GUIDING FORCE behind everything the Reaper's do can not enact his own cycle?  He Reaped the first Reaper into Existence and yet he can not start his own cycle?

Possibly can not, I don't know how the Catalyst is wired in to the Citadel's mass relay system, or possibly can but does not, for whatever reasons. All we actually know is he did not, that neither proves or disproves anything.

[o Ventus]

Heeden wrote...

If you have any other info on the Collectors/Protheans I'd like to see it, but as far as I know it is unknown whether there was any Prothean Reapers created or if the Collectors were the only way they were preserved.

They tried making a prothean Reaper, but failed because the protheans had that unique genetic structure. So they decided to go with the Collectors instead.

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Aye and there is the problem.  How can the Cruicible, stated as not being able to discriminate between Super-AI like Reapers and Geth, be able to discriminate between Organcis and Synthetics.

There are three types of energy released by the Crucible.

Destroy is a destructive force, like some sort of EMP (only with extra science or magic, your choice). With a well-functioning Crucible it can be tuned to do the most damage to Reapers and only minor damage to other tech, with a pretty crappy Crucible it blows the crap out of everything.

Control is like a reprogramming - the Shepard AI thing is software that is made to control certain types of Synthetic (i.e. the Reapers) this is why (to some people's confusion) control does not take charge of the Geth and EDI, for the same reason you can't run Windows 7 on an Amiga 500.

Synthesis is Shepard organic energy, it effects organics because they also have organic energy.

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

So...a large chunk of people hate Synthesis because it's ridiculously advanced science (coined as "Space Magic" because it's outside our realm of understanding)...

...But no one has a problem with the "Space Magic" that is the Reapers?

I mean, I accept that the game makes them a collective uploaded consciousness of entire civilizations (ME2 implied it with Legion's statements regarding Sovereign/Nazara, and then canonized it in ME3), but that doesn't make the process by which they do it any less ridiculous or space-magicky.

And then Control does the exact same thing to Shepard (breaks Shepard down and somehow uploads his/her consciousness).

Even the premise of the absolute genocide of the Reaper cycles is ridiculous. If Ilos could escape notice, all things considered it would be pathetically easy for even post-Arrival cycles to arrange means to hide secret population centers to wait out the Reapers.

All the way back in ME1, which also had its Prothean Beacons and Asari and Alliance great-power space magic nonsense, the Reapers were pretty ridiculous.

[savionen]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Agreed. People are pretty phony about this one.


Let's be honest, "suspension of disbelief" is only broken here because people want to reject the ending. Not the science, because Bioware has played fast and loose with science since ME1, and it only got worse in ME2.

Why would people want to hate the endings intentionally? I thought it was an abomination before I talked to another person about it, or came here. Mass Effect was my favorite franchise, why would I want to hate it?

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1. Man, that "Vangaurd of Destruction" bit" sounded like he really cared about us and just wanted to save us from those evil robots.

Plain fact with a touch of the dramatic, and he didn't want to save "us" from evil robots. He actually wanted to Harvest "us" as  part of the Catalyst's solution.

2. True, but if this is always the case, why do the Collector's exist?  They should have been Destroyer'fied when they were no longer good enough to be a Sovereirgn.  In fact instead of making a different Reaper with them, they just made them into better husks!  Sounds like they really care about preserving the Protheans!

If you have any other info on the Collectors/Protheans I'd like to see it, but as far as I know it is unknown whether there was any Prothean Reapers created or if the Collectors were the only way they were preserved.

3.  Oh, so now the Catalyst, the GUIDING FORCE behind everything the Reaper's do can not enact his own cycle?  He Reaped the first Reaper into Existence and yet he can not start his own cycle?

Possibly can not, I don't know how the Catalyst is wired in to the Citadel's mass relay system, or possibly can but does not, for whatever reasons. All we actually know is he did not, that neither proves or disproves anything.

1.  Sov despises organics and wants us dead.  Go listen to the Virmire conversation. 

2. Go Play Mass Effect 2 again please.

3.  He is the Citadel, He controls the Reapers, and you are telling me he can't open his own relay? All we know is that he stated the fact that the Citadel is a part of him.

4. Hopefully the Levithan DLC will clear up this mess.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Aye and there is the problem.  How can the Cruicible, stated as not being able to discriminate between Super-AI like Reapers and Geth, be able to discriminate between Organcis and Synthetics.

There are three types of energy released by the Crucible.

Destroy is a destructive force, like some sort of EMP (only with extra science or magic, your choice). With a well-functioning Crucible it can be tuned to do the most damage to Reapers and only minor damage to other tech, with a pretty crappy Crucible it blows the crap out of everything.

Control is like a reprogramming - the Shepard AI thing is software that is made to control certain types of Synthetic (i.e. the Reapers) this is why (to some people's confusion) control does not take charge of the Geth and EDI, for the same reason you can't run Windows 7 on an Amiga 500.

Synthesis is Shepard organic energy, it effects organics because they also have organic energy.

So that "basic" Cruicible which, in the end, is just a giant genertor according to the Catalyst, is able to produce not one, but three types of energy?

Also, seeing as the Geth (if alive) and EDI are built of off Reaper Tech, why couldn't Shep control them as well.  He controls Husks, why not the Geth.  

[Heeden]

savionen wrote...

Why would people want to hate the endings intentionally? I thought it was an abomination before I talked to another person about it, or came here. Mass Effect was my favorite franchise, why would I want to hate it?

People get emotionally attached to "long journeys" like this, especially if they really, really like them. If the ending is a bit meh (and as a rule of thumb, the greater the journey the more disappointing the ending) they tend to let the double-whammy of knowing it's ended and the disappointment of the ending overcloud how fantastic a thing it was, they feel like their entire time was wasted and the next thing you know there's an internet hate-train rolling.

The Dark Tower series of novels is a good example of this - it's an absolutely brilliant fantasy epic that absolutely enthralled me for the time it took to read the six books but the ending was absolute bobbins (far, far worse than ME insofar as lack of resolution and bizarre terms of "victory" goes). So people, rather than accepting that sometimes endings just aren't fun, head to the internet to slate the author.

With ME the effect is magnified because gamers in general are well practiced at slating the products they love.

As an aside the last book (number 14 and they're all big books) of the Wheel of Time series is set to be released early next year. I know for a fact the chances of me being satisfied by the ending are very small, the story is too big and the world too rich for any ending to possibly give me all the closure I want. I'll finish it, and I'll feel a bit sad and empty that it's all over, and I'll think of all the things that I personally would have preferred, then I'll move on.

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1.  Sov despises organics and wants us dead.  Go listen to the Virmire conversation.

What makes you think he despises us

2. Go Play Mass Effect 2 again please.

If you have a point to make I'm sure you can give a quote or link to support it.

3.  He is the Citadel, He controls the Reapers, and you are telling me he can't open his own relay? All we know is that he stated the fact that the Citadel is a part of him.

That is not what I said, I said all we know is he did not open the Relay; we don't know if this is because he can not (either through inability or uncontactability) or chose not to because it is the function of the Reapers to enact the cycle, or for some other reason.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1.  Sov despises organics and wants us dead.  Go listen to the Virmire conversation.

What makes you think he despises us

2. Go Play Mass Effect 2 again please.

If you have a point to make I'm sure you can give a quote or link to support it.

3.  He is the Citadel, He controls the Reapers, and you are telling me he can't open his own relay? All we know is that he stated the fact that the Citadel is a part of him.

That is not what I said, I said all we know is he did not open the Relay; we don't know if this is because he can not (either through inability or uncontactability) or chose not to because it is the function of the Reapers to enact the cycle, or for some other reason.

1. Go Watch the Virmire Conversation. www.youtube.com/watch

2. Read: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Collector

3.  Seeing as the Relay is the Citadel, and the Citadel is the Catalyst, why can't the Catalyst open himself?

[Heeden]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1. Go Watch the Virmire Conversation. www.youtube.com/watch

Awesome bit in there, Sovereign says "Confidence born of ignorance, the cycle can not be broken". With retrospect it almost seems like an Elcor describing his words as being confident due to ignorance. Still he is cold, clinical, rather chatty actually (considering he didn't have to say anything) and with a flair for hyperbole (we have no beginning, no end - bollocks). So why does Sovereign mean the Catalyst is definitely deceiving us?

2. Read: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Collector

I've read it, and the article on the Protheans. All we have is EDI's speculation that another Prothean Reaper might not have been attempted, there is no concrete evidence.

3.  Seeing as the Relay is the Citadel, and the Citadel is the Catalyst, why can't the Catalyst open himself?

We do not know that the Catalyst can not open the Citadel-relay, all we know is he does not, there is a difference between being unable to perform a task and choosing not to do so. The events do not prove anything about his capabilities or motives.

[KnifeForkAndSpoon]

Heeden wrote...

We do not know that the Catalyst can not open the Citadel-relay, all we know is he does not, there is a difference between being unable to perform a task and choosing not to do so. The events do not prove anything about his capabilities or motives.

Either he can't or won't open it. Neither option makes any sense.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Heeden wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

1. Go Watch the Virmire Conversation. www.youtube.com/watch

Awesome bit in there, Sovereign says "Confidence born of ignorance, the cycle can not be broken". With retrospect it almost seems like an Elcor describing his words as being confident due to ignorance. Still he is cold, clinical, rather chatty actually (considering he didn't have to say anything) and with a flair for hyperbole (we have no beginning, no end - bollocks). So why does Sovereign mean the Catalyst is definitely deceiving us?

2. Read: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Collector

I've read it, and the article on the Protheans. All we have is EDI's speculation that another Prothean Reaper might not have been attempted, there is no concrete evidence.

3.  Seeing as the Relay is the Citadel, and the Citadel is the Catalyst, why can't the Catalyst open himself?

We do not know that the Catalyst can not open the Citadel-relay, all we know is he does not, there is a difference between being unable to perform a task and choosing not to do so. The events do not prove anything about his capabilities or motives.

1. You're right Sovereign is just an old cynical Reaper who actually doesn't know what he is talking about....

2. You're right, EDI is probably just wrong in her asseration....  

3. Okay, it is no streach to say the Catalyst can control himself.  He controls Reapers, he is the Citadel, why is it hard to believe he could access his relay?