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[Doom972]

Obviously they aren't invincible - you can destroy them, just not by throwing ships at them.

The Reapers seem heavily influenced by the work of H.P. Lovecraft: They are ancient beings from beyond the stars (dark space) who have power (technology) incomprehensible to mortals (organics) - even their very presence makes mortals go insane (indoctrinated).

This concept has already proven itself in adult literature, so calling it childish is just wrong.

[Reptilian Rob]

Doom972 wrote...

Obviously they aren't invincible - you can destroy them, just not by throwing ships at them.

The Reapers seem heavily influenced by the work of H.P. Lovecraft: They are ancient beings from beyond the stars (dark space) who have power (technology) incomprehensible to mortals (organics) - even their very presence makes mortals go insane (indoctrinated).

This concept has already proven itself in adult literature, so calling it childish is just wrong.

At the Mountains of Mandess comes to mind. 

[Naerivar]

Yes, there's some pretty bad writing, but the Crucible itself is just fine. Over
the course of the game, we find out that the Crucible is a device
intended to end the Raper threat, once and for all. The militarily
minded characters assume that means it's a weapon, but they don't know
that for sure. We also learn that it's not of Prothean design — it's
been passed down from cycle to cycle, modified a little each time, and
nobody knows who conceived it in the first place.

When Shepard
finally activates it, she interfaces with the Catalist, who controls the
Reapers. Shepard is the first organic being ever to do so, and her
ability to do so informs the Catalist that the cycle isn't working
anymore and that a new "solution" is required. So the Catalyst presents
Shepard with her available options, and the consequences of her choice
are felt throughout the galaxy. The cycle is broken (even if Shepard
chooses to let this particular harvest finish, it is the last), and the
galaxy is free of the Reaper threat. Which is just what we set out to
do. So...

I'm sorry to be so rude, but... No.

The crucible itself is a rather silly plot device. At first it is introduced as a device with unknown qualities, designed by the Prothean's to destroy (or stop, whatever) the Reapers. This, is more or less acceptable. I'm not happy with it, because if we look back at the prevous two games we must have found a pattern:
Citadel; thought of to be built by prothean's, was in fact, built by reapers.
Omega; thought of to be a Prothean mining facility, has in fact, Reaper architechture. (I am unsure of how the Prothean's could mine anything if it was made by the Reapers countless cycles ago, but the fact remains that it is Reaper made.)
Relays: thought of as Prothean, were in fact Reaper-made.

We even learn from mass effect 1, that pretty much the entire mass effect technology is used by the Reapers to control the sentient species. I don't know if it is confirmed anywhere, but how do you think the protheans got their hands on Mass effect tech? Javik implies that they invented it themselves (he mocks Liara for using their tech), but I wouldn't be surprised if they found tech from a civilisation before them.

Pretty much anything that the Protheans did was designed or made use of Reaper tech. Now, I am not stating that because Reapers designed it, it must be bad. However, one ought to think thrice before using technology designed by your enemies, ESPECIALLY if you know that such tech has the power to corrupt the minds of those near it.

Fine, fine, fine. We guess/hope that the crucible is in fact of Prothean design and lets hope that it offers the end of the Reapers on a silver platter. We don't know what it does, or if it even does something, but sure, pour all our resources into our last hope. I could, if barely, accept that as a plot device. (lets compare, we actually knew that destroying the ring would kill Sauron, how? I don't know. But would you have accepted Frodo bringing the Ring into enemy territory if it MIGHT destroy sauron? Especially if it would cost you everything you had?)

However, we later learn that the Crucible is not Prothean made, in fact, it is countless cycles old. At this moment a bell should start ringing rather loudly, more specifcally, a bell that is placed at the front door of Hell. Can you even estimate the odds of such a plan surviving throughout all the cycles? I can't, lets give a few reasons:

The chance of these plans surviving through thousand consecutive cycles is insanely small. I know that in mass effect we deal with impossible odds, but most of those were defeated because of strength of will. Not because thousands INDEPENDENT civilisations decided to pass through plans for a superstructure.
Lets look at that more carefully, it means that every civilisation thought it worthy to pass along the information. But it also means that none of the receiving cylcles actually learned of or believed the existance of the Reapers. However, after the existance of said reapers had been proven, a large number of species decided that they would improve on this rather weird and unknown device. While enduring an invasion.
Lets also think about how long it took for this cycle to built the crucible. It was finished in about six months. That means that ALL cycles before us either found the plans very late in the war, but still managed to hide the information and pass it on (do note that it basically means that the information was stored at the same cluster multiple times). Or, that they found it early but decided not to built it, but still managed to pass it on (or even improve on it).

Yes, some of these cases can be described by indoctrination, or small factions wanting to built it and others not.But those fond of shoving the existance of thousands of Sovereign-Reapers down my throat must admit that it is unlikely that such things happened in each and every cycle.

If you're still not convinced, that ask yourself how it is possible that apart from the crucible we have found no data on the cycles before the protheans, other than what we discovered by archeology.

In short, the chances of the crucible's plan passing along for thousands of cycles is so extremely small that it is practically impossible. The fact that it is 'merely an energy source;  makes it even more implausible. We can see that all three devices (destroy, Synthesis, control) are actually ON the citadel. Which meant that the Reapers basically kept the means to destroy themselves.

If you are writing any plot, be it book, film or game. You need to ask yourself "'Is what I am writing plausible?" if it is not, it will require suspension of belief. Those things are usually better of at the start of the plot; the introduction of biotics, a race of beautiful blue alien women, eezo, hyperspace tunnels etc. Even shepard's death can be seen as such because suspending your disbelief about her resurrection is the only way to actually continue the story. You may not like it, but suspending your disbelief rewards you with an entire game. So...
Is finding an unknown weapon passed on from an extinct race plausible? sure.
Is pouring all your resources into it plausible? It would be if you truly have no other option. Something which was hammered down our throats several times.
Is finding out that the device has been passed down through thousands of cycles, with species improving it, but not actually managing to use it succesfully plausible? No, it's very implausible.
Is suspecting that the crucible is actually a Reaper device (which would immediatly explain how it survived through all the generations so long) plausible? why yes, it is.
Is it therefore plausible to not use the crucible? yes, it is.
Especially if you find out that the focusing crystal, or catalyst if you will, is the Citadel, a REAPER MADE CONSTRUCT? Do I even need to answer that? (By the way Bioware, in a chemical reaction a Catalyst is a substance which accalerates the chemical process without actually changing the end product, it's also never 'used up' because it reappears again after the reaction. So why did the Catalyst give me new options and blow itself up?)

Editorial Note:I am not claiming that the crucible is Reaper-made. However, there must exist a rather large suspicion that it actually COULD be. Enough to, in my eyes, no use the crucible at all. To me, you can't justify its use, becayse you're basically just praying that it might do something... something good.

After you ask and answer that question, ask the following one.  Can I justify the actions of my characters?  I'm not going into this, because you can hopefully see what for can of worms that question would open up.

As for the Crucible being a DEM, I think it is, or rather the starbrat. Yes, the crucible is introduced from the start, and even as a way of destroying the Reapers. But they spend the entire game telling us that they didn't know what it would do. Then in the eleventh hour, the starbrat appears to explain how it works.

The starbrat appears in the last few minutes to present the solution to all the problems. It does not really matter that the WAY it came into existance was there all along. In old greek plays the sky from which the God came was there all along also, and does it really matter whether you've been gazing for your answers at the sky all play, or not? I believe not. Nor does it matter that the starbrat offers you a choice, he still presents the solutions. As such, I'd qualify him as a DEM.

long rant is long. Maybe I was more fed up with the whole Crucible thing than I had guessed.

Editorial note 2. It is rather silly that the Reapers are seen as invincible, they then swarm around the citadel to protect it. But still the shield fleet manages to get an object the size of several Sovereign Reapers through their lines, unharmed. That's only possible if there was either a gap in the defense (and all the Reapers didn't pay attention for some 10 minutes). Or if they pushed through, which means that while the Reapers are (nearly) invincible, they can still be pushed back.

Bah, I keep finding mistakes and spelling errors. I apologise if I missed some. It's rather late here.

Modifié par Naerivar, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[S Atomeha]

I still think Arrival showed how the reapers should have been beaten. No sacrifice is too great in the war against the reapers.

[hoodaticus]

Heeden wrote...

It's cosmicism, the idea that the universe is so old and vast there could be beings of incomprehensible might and intellect to which we as individual life-forms barely register. It's a particular theme of Lovecraft's horror which is alluded to by the C'thulu like appearence of the Reapers.

It can also be described as an "Outside Context Scenario", something completely unexpected and possibly lethal that forces a society to evolve or die.

OT: I'm pretty sure the cosmic super-intelligence is actually the Free Market.  It governs almost all human activity, determining what is produced and where and by whom, and who consumes what.  It's barely a VI-level intelligence at the individual level, but in a network of many such individiuals it can govern an advanced, global industrial economy.  The super-intelligence emerges from the decisions of each individual, and new individuals become a part of it merely by interacting with any individual who is already in it.

I wonder if even Adam Smith knew how big that invisible hand really is.

[Naerivar]

laecraft wrote...

Regarding why the DEMs, and the Crucible in particular, are so unsatisfying.

Many heroic stories have this simple, but powerful message: "If the enemy is much stronger and seems to be impossible to defeat, but you're skilled and courageous and don't give up and give it your everything and make friends and you all hold hands and stand together, then you will win."

I bet many people expected ME story to follow this formula.

Instead, the message is "If the enemy is invincible and you close your eyes on the problem until it hits you and hinder the only people who do something about it, you will find miraculous schematics lying around that will solve the problem for you if you follow the instructions."

And not only that, but a DEM doesn't reward you for what you did.

In some stories, this is reasonally managed. In Avatar, Eywa only helps after the Omatecaya are on the verge of losing. They tried, but it wasn't enough. Enter DEM and voila, everything is saved. The fact that Eywa is never actually portraited as a sentient creature helps.

In ME3 you spend the whole game gaining allies and resolving their conflicts. Some of that gains you aid for the Crucible, however, it changes little. The Catalyst needed the crucible for the new solutions. But it didn't need the solutions in the first place. It could have decided to stop the Harvesting at any moment. But it only did when you connected the crucible. And therein lies the crux of many DEM. You only win, by the grace of that 'god'. The catalyst could easily have decided that because Shepard entered his domain, every cycle would start a thousand years earlier. He could, after he had won, order the Reapers to completely eradicate the crucible's plan. All in order for his original solutions to keep working.

The only way you can survive in ME3 is by the goodwill of the Catalyst. And seeing what he did for countless cycles, what monstrosities he wrought... I wouldn't want to depend on that goodwill.

[gmboy902]

BioWare did kind of set themselves up there. They've spent the whole trilogy saying that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally, and in the first two games the galaxy refuses to prepare for the invasion because they don't believe Shepard up until they're staring down the Reapers' death beam. At that point, a deus ex machina is really the only way to get out and still respect your prior story. Of course, BioWare managed to screw up on both fronts by creating a machina that both defeated the Reapers and made them pansies.

That being said, I think that the omnipotent Reaper threat being beaten by a well-done deus ex machina would be better than a clearly beatable Reaper threat. That's part of what made Mass Effect 1 and 2 so good - the Reapers were just so badass, so unstoppable. And then they got entirely emasculated in ME3.

Modifié par gmboy902, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:26 .

[Demadrio]

Naerivar wrote...

However, we later learn that the Crucible is not Prothean made, in fact, it is countless cycles old. At this moment a bell should start ringing rather loudly, more specifcally, a bell that is placed at the front door of Hell. Can you even estimate the odds of such a plan surviving throughout all the cycles?

Heh. Yeah, I'll grant you that.

My feeling is that it would have been better if we hadn't been thrown into the game with the crucible plans just discovered. We've known since ME1 that Liara's particularly good at putting a bunch of disperate fragments of information together to form a bigger picture (even before meeting Shepard and hearing of the Reapers for the first time ever, she's already figured out that the Protheans were but the latest iteration of a cycle of galactic extinctions). How about a few missions with her where she gets the clues that tells her not just that the Crucible plans exist, but where it might have come from?
 
Instead, Hackett says "First, get your ass to Mars" and voila! Crucible plans. And you're right, some debate on whether to continue working on the device after Javik says the Protheans didn't design it would have been a good idea.

I still think the problem is more with the script writing than the plot device itself, though I'll admit part of this may be due to my being new enough to ME3 that I've only played it through with the Extended Cut.

Side note: I don't mind the Catalyst appearing as the kid in the ducts so much as I mind those frakking dream sequences. Holy hell I could really do without those.

[DeepChild]

Demadrio wrote...

DeepChild wrote...

The Reapers are not an enemy in the traditional sense.  They are so advanced, so powerful, so numerous, that they are more akin to a force of nature, a Lovecraftian horror, if you will.  All throughout ME1 and 2 we're led to believe that if the Reapers arrive in our galaxy, we're completely doomed.  From the very beginning of ME3, we're shown just how devastating the Reapers are.  It's been stated a thousand times in discussions about the endings that the goal in the ME games is the destruction of the Reapers.  I take issue with that.  It's really to find a way to survive the raging storm that has consumed every civilization in every cycle before.  Yes, Shep wants to destroy them.  Who wouldn't after seeing the atrocities they've committed.  But that's often phrased as "I'll find some way to stop them".  And that's all Shep can really hope for: some way to stop the killing.

Agreed. I liked that too. I reminds me of FreeSpace, a sci-fi game from about 15 years ago which featured a similarly unstoppable, incomprehensible alien force bent on wiping humans of the face of the galaxy. (Unfortunately, the third game in that trilogy was never developed, so the aliens' motives and the fate of human civilization remains a mystery.)

Freespace was great!  I hadn't thought about that before, but the similarities between the Shivans and Reapers, as well as their role as unknowable terrors, are certainly there.

[Bullets McDeath]

I thought this thread was about Kai Leng, hah... =D

[daboy042188]

if the reapers weren't BASICALLY invincible then there's no way shep could have united the galaxy through fear of them. The Turians would be like "Well it's gonna suck but we can probably pull this one out, maybe throw the humans a bone" The Krogans would be all "Nothing can live on Tuchanka except for us because have the biggest quads in the universe and those damn Salarians can suck on them" etc etc...
Plus the Reapers aren't invincible, IIRC it said somewhere that about 4-5 Dreadnaughts could take on a Sovvy class reaper and pull it out, albiet with losses. Theoretically if Javik had woken up when he was supposed to the resurgent Prothean empire would have spent all of it's time enslaving Asari and Krogans (and maybe Turians) and built one BMFS (big [explitive] ship) after another, and when the reapers came back the new prothean empire would have greeted them with 70 bajillion guns capable of punching holes through planets and the war would have been very short. But things like the treaty of Firaxen and all the wars had weakened the military of the galaxy and they simply weren't prepared for the Reapers. IIRC in the whole galaxy there's something like 51 dreadnaughts so they can maybe take out about 10 Reapers. There was more than that in London, simply put, there's no way the galaxy was winning without pulling an A-bomb out of it's cloaca

[Demadrio]

DeepChild wrote...

Freespace was great!  I hadn't thought about that before, but the similarities between the Shivans and Reapers, as well as their role as unknowable terrors, are certainly there.

Being a FreeSpace fan actually helped me the first time I ever played Mass Effect: The journal entry for finding Liara T'Soni said that she's somewhere in the Artemis Tau cluster, and to look for a planet with Prothean ruins. Given that the Protheans were ME's analogue of the Ancients in FS, I figured that the Knossos system would be a good place to start looking, and sure enough... 

[MongoNYC]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Well **** me. I guess you are the god of writing and know how people should write their villains. The Reapers being basically invincible is part of the story of Mass Effect. It makes the eventual triumph over them even sweeter.

But you don't truimph over them.  You are allowed to beat them only when a character who had not existed prior within the 100 hour long plot gives you to opportunity to defeat them.

That's not defeating an enemy, it's the unbeatable enemy giving up before you can lose to them.

Modifié par MongoNYC, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[satunnainen]

Naerivar wrote...

However, we later learn that the Crucible is not Prothean made, in fact, it is countless cycles old. At this moment a bell should start ringing rather loudly, more specifcally, a bell that is placed at the front door of Hell. Can you even estimate the odds of such a plan surviving throughout all the cycles? I can't, lets give a few reasons:

The chance of these plans surviving through thousand consecutive cycles is insanely small. I know that in mass effect we deal with impossible odds, but most of those were defeated because of strength of will. Not because thousands INDEPENDENT civilisations decided to pass through plans for a superstructure.
Lets look at that more carefully, it means that every civilisation thought it worthy to pass along the information. But it also means that none of the receiving cylcles actually learned of or believed the existance of the Reapers. However, after the existance of said reapers had been proven, a large number of species decided that they would improve on this rather weird and unknown device. While enduring an invasion.
Lets also think about how long it took for this cycle to built the crucible. It was finished in about six months. That means that ALL cycles before us either found the plans very late in the war, but still managed to hide the information and pass it on (do note that it basically means that the information was stored at the same cluster multiple times). Or, that they found it early but decided not to built it, but still managed to pass it on (or even improve on it).

Yes, some of these cases can be described by indoctrination, or small factions wanting to built it and others not.But those fond of shoving the existance of thousands of Sovereign-Reapers down my throat must admit that it is unlikely that such things happened in each and every cycle.

If you're still not convinced, that ask yourself how it is possible that apart from the crucible we have found no data on the cycles before the protheans, other than what we discovered by archeology.

In short, the chances of the crucible's plan passing along for thousands of cycles is so extremely small that it is practically impossible. The fact that it is 'merely an energy source;  makes it even more implausible. We can see that all three devices (destroy, Synthesis, control) are actually ON the citadel. Which meant that the Reapers basically kept the means to destroy themselves.

I just would like to add that the galaxy is a very big place. The reapers are not going through even all the planets, atleast not very througly. That is proven by the fact that they left plenty of protean tech lying around. For example mars archives, thessia temple, whole ilos, and so on. The plans can be passed on even if the next cycle doesnt find the cache, some later cycle can still find it. You have to remember that the cycles have continued maybe 20 000 times now or more. Also who else would find some ancient tech from ruins than archaeologist. Ok, anyone, but atleast they do explore the ruins constantly

[avenging_teabag]

humes spork wrote...

Eain wrote...

True. Being correct makes me correct. I have no desire to debate this any further. I have the feeling that if Liara had literally called the thing "a Deus Ex Machina device I found plans for in the archives" you would have disputed its nature. No skin off my back, in the end. I'm only agitated you're so stubbornly wrong.

No, Dean is correct in this regard. Both the classical and contemporary definitions of deus ex machina carry the very strong connotation that it is a plot device used to answer the dramatic question, resolve the primary narrative, or resolve the climax to a given work.

And that has nothing to do with the chronological point in the story that the plot device is introduced at. Whether Eain's definition is too broad, has no relevance in our case: the Crucible IS used to answer a dramatic question and to resolve the primary narrative of the Mass Effect trilogy (how do we defeat the reapers?) in a very arbtirary and contrived way. Hence, it's a DEM by any definition.

[avenging_teabag]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The timing is what dictates a deus ex machina: the sudden and immediate appearance before the solution is enacted. If there is a significant delay or development between the introduction of a solution and its enaction, it ceases to be a deus ex machina.

No. I believe there were definitions presented in this very thread, and not one of them mentions timing as a key aspect of a DEM. What makes a plot device a DEM is that it resolves a conflict in a way that is inconsistent with the previous plot development - usually, by introducing a new character, power, circumstance or object. The Crucible fits this definition to a tee, and timing has nothing to do with it.

Your claim that the Crucible is no less a DEM than the reaper iff, conduit, vigil etc., is also absurd, but i won't go in that direction, becuse therein lies madness.

[humes spork]

avenging_teabag wrote...

And that has nothing to do with the chronological point in the story that the plot device is introduced at. Whether Eain's definition is too broad, has no relevance in our case: the Crucible IS used to answer a dramatic question and to resolve the primary narrative of the Mass Effect trilogy (how do we defeat the reapers?) in a very arbtirary and contrived way. Hence, it's a DEM by any definition.

If the point at which a central plot device is introduced into (or employed in, really) a given story is irrelevant, there is literally no plot device in fiction that cannot be defined as deus ex machina.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .

[avenging_teabag]

humes spork wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

And that has nothing to do with the chronological point in the story that the plot device is introduced at. Whether Eain's definition is too broad, has no relevance in our case: the Crucible IS used to answer a dramatic question and to resolve the primary narrative of the Mass Effect trilogy (how do we defeat the reapers?) in a very arbtirary and contrived way. Hence, it's a DEM by any definition.

If the point at which a central plot device is introduced into (or employed in, really) a given story is irrelevant, there is literally no plot device in fiction that cannot be defined as deus ex machina.

Wrong. You said it yourself (I think it was you) that a DEM is used to answer a dramatic question and to resolve the primary narrative - and it does that in a way that is arbitrary and contrived, and defies the previously established rules of the given universe. That is the primary characteristic of a DEM, not the time of its introduction. Usually, it is introduced at the final part of a story, yes, however, it doesn't have to be. Not by a long shot.

Consider Conduit, for example. Is it introduced at the climax of ME1's story? Yes. Does it give the protagonist means to resolve the primary narrative? Also yes. Is it a DEM? Hell no. Why not? Because it follows the clearly established rules of the universe - the protheans knew important stuff, the beacons contain important stuff, beacons are connected to the reapers, Saren is connected tot he reapers, saren is searching for the conduit, conduit is on ilos. And finally, on ilos, vigil tells us what the conduit really is - it's the final piece of the puzzle, but the puzzle itself we started to assemble from the very beginning of the game.

On the other hand, consider a hypothetical situation - let's say, Lorik's quest on Noveria.  Just as he finished telling you about his woes, an unnknown representative of galactic Interpol contacts you saying that anoleis is charged with embezzlement and being under arrest atm, lorik is once again in full command of his company and the garage pass is waiting for you at Anolies' office. You never hear from that character before or since. Would such a plot development happen at the story climax? No. Would it resolve the primary narranive? No. Would it be a DEM? Very much so, because it would grant the protagonist a solution to a plot problem, which doesn't logically follows from the previously established rules of the universe, and in fact, defies them (there's no galactic interpol in Mass Effect, and Noveria, being a corporate world, wouldn't be accountable to it, even if such an organization did exist).

That's why the Crucible is a textbook DEM. I really can't put it any clearer than that.

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[Naerivar]

satunnainen wrote...

I just would like to add that the galaxy is a very big place. The reapers are not going through even all the planets, atleast not very througly. That is proven by the fact that they left plenty of protean tech lying around. For example mars archives, thessia temple, whole ilos, and so on. The plans can be passed on even if the next cycle doesnt find the cache, some later cycle can still find it. You have to remember that the cycles have continued maybe 20 000 times now or more. Also who else would find some ancient tech from ruins than archaeologist. Ok, anyone, but atleast they do explore the ruins constantly

True, the galaxy is a very large place, that works two ways.

In ME1 Liara tells us how little actual information there is about the protheans. Now, here at earth we didn't have actual civilisations 50,000 years ago (atleast, I don't think so), but look at Pompei. The little town near the Etna that was completely caught in a lava/mud stream. Ages later they found pretty much everything, but color, preserved. From the little amount of information we got from that, they were able to reconstruct some aspects of their lives.

Extrapolating this would mean that we only need about a single preserved city on a prothean planet to reconstruct some of their civilisation. (This idea is reinforced by Javik telling us all Protheans pretty much lived the same, thought the same and fought the same.) However, Liara clearly tells us there hasn't been found such a place.

Due to the trap the Reapers set, they know just about every colony the Citadel species (of that cycle) have, and as such they can easily eradicate them. The chances of one planet (even if newly discovered) slipping under their radar isn't very large. This means they can pretty much destroy any things left by the protheans (and they did, says Liara).

This is actually a little contradictory with the game, where indeed prothean tech is just about lying around. Until you take into account that the Reapers want the species to develop along a certain path, and probably left a lot of the ME tech lying around.

It's of course always possible that inside some of the tech they don't destroy, the plans for the crucible are kept. But for this to happen every single cycle? Very unlikely. To just give a numerical example. Every single cycle has a chance p to NOT pass on the plans for the crucible (We take an average p, I'm sure that not every cycle hsa the same chance to pass along the information. Note that this makes the calculations easier, and the end result even LARGER. Because sevral cycles with 100% chance to pass it on and one cycle with 0.0000001% still give a high average, but a very low actual chance).
So, chance for one cycle NOT to pass on information: p
chance for twenty thousand cycles to consecutively NOT pass on the information (I'm guessing the actual amount of times it skipped a cycle is low). p to the power 20,000.
Chance for the 20,001 th cycle to actually get the plans, (1-p) 20,000. Now, lets see what happens. Lets say that each cycle has a 95% chance to pass the crucible plans along (p=0.05). Actual chance to get to the 20,001th cycle would be 0.95 20,000 = 3 10 to the power -446. This is so incredibly small, that things with such a chance don't happen in our universe, unless they are forced. (e.g any particular order in a deck of cards has a very small chance, but actually have A order isn't a chance at all.)

Note that a chance of p=0.05 is a very low chance of not giving on the information, because it's still information about a device that didn't help their, nor the previous cycles. anyway, see my previous post about that.

Yes, the chance is not zero, so it may actually have happened that way. I won't deny that. But the chance is so incredibly small that I can't even make up events that have the same order of magnetide. And I study physics...


For some reason the capital 6 sign doesn't wok on this forum. Implications, unpleasant.

Modifié par Naerivar, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:55 .

[nos_astra]

So, according to Naerivar, finding the Crucible plans might as well have been due to divine intervention.

[Eain]

humes spork wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

And that has nothing to do with the chronological point in the story that the plot device is introduced at. Whether Eain's definition is too broad, has no relevance in our case: the Crucible IS used to answer a dramatic question and to resolve the primary narrative of the Mass Effect trilogy (how do we defeat the reapers?) in a very arbtirary and contrived way. Hence, it's a DEM by any definition.

If the point at which a central plot device is introduced into (or employed in, really) a given story is irrelevant, there is literally no plot device in fiction that cannot be defined as deus ex machina.

Incorrect. Likewise, if the introduction of a thing right before the resolution of a problem makes it DEM, then it would appear as though no amount of in-universe justification there exists for it, this thing would be a DEM.

My definition merely restricts itself to the contrivedness of a solution, not the time at which it is introduced. The Crucible comes entirely out of left field, absent of any foreshadowing or further justification within the setting. It wrecks all tension and all excitement previously built up, because now we discover that the universe was never in any real danger at all. Why? Because it's a universe in which convenient superweapons suddenly present themselves when needed, and whether this is at the start or end of a story is irrelevant.

Imagine if right before Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939, the Polish would suddenly find the plans for a DNA destroying superweapon that affects only those of German ethnicity. Well gee, for a moment we were all sitting on the edges of our seats about Poland would survive the invasion or not, but guess we had nothing to worry about after all. Now imagine if days before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, a giant guardian Kraken would destroy the entire Japanese fleet in the Pacific. Oh my god! We never had to worry about anything after all.

Now take these same conflicts and introduce the solutions earlier. Hitler knows as early as 1929, ten years before this invasion, that the Polish have a German-killing gun. And the Japanese know as early as 1922, twenty years before pearl harbour, that the coasts of the USA are guarded by a giant Kraken. Both superpowers now decide not to attack these countries. Are these devices any less a DEM? No. They're still contrived, convenient, out-of-universe solutions that should not even exist on Earth.

Imagine your company is going bankrupt and you're worried about your future, but out of nowhere comes a leprechaun with a giant pot of gold to stimulate your wealth and allow you to pay off all your debts. What if you could count on such a leprechaun appearing each time you got your company into trouble? Then you could do so at random! Nothing would matter at all!

Shepard's universe sure is a convenient universe. Who cares about getting invaded by Reapers when some library will magically produce a superweapon that will kill them all for you. Bye tension.

Worse yet, this one DEM stains all future Bioware releases too, or at least the things written by Walters and Hudson. You think I'm gonna make the mistake of investing myself in one of their IP's a second time, when I know that all buildup and all spectacle will get instantly nullified by a blatant asspull? "Have no fear, IWIN button is here!". Yeah, I sure enjoy engaging in fiction with the knowledge that nothing established in the lore matters because the resolution of the plot is always gonna come out of left field anyway.

Modifié par Eain, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[Naerivar]

klarabella wrote...

So, according to Naerivar, finding the Crucible plans might as well have been due to divine intervention.

I'm actually going with the idea that it is a Reaper tactic. That if, perchance, the cycle survives the initial assault, or if it takes a whole lot longer for the Reapers to eradicate the cycle, the species find a supposed superweapon. If they'd pour all the resources in it, it's less resources to combat the Reapers, less Reapers destroyed, more life preserved (in the mind of the Catalyst). It's just one more thing the Reapers use to force us along a certain path. That's what we found out in ME1 wasn't it? The possibility alone that we're again forced on a path should stop us from using the crucible.

That it actually turned out as a 'working' weapon that could solve the whole problem of the Reapers is a missed oppertunity.

[Seboist]

All the problems with the Crucible DEM and general Reaper stupidity stem from ME2 being a complete waste of time where we ran around the galaxy solving daddy issues for a bunch of overgrown man-children instead of preparing for war against the Reapers and finding a means to stop them.

Without these asspulls,having the reapers inside the gates picking off alien races one by one while their leaders run around like headless chickens needing Shepard to handle white man's burden spells DOOM for the galaxy.