299 réponses à ce sujet

[v TricKy v]

thefallen2far wrote...

Some people are nihilists. Like for instance, they saw the end of Mass Effect 1 and thought Soverign annnounced he was going to assault the citadel by himself and show up with trashcans in orbit around him that didn't do mech, he took every shot from every ship fired at it, begging for more for days on end and then luckily downloaded all his power into the body of a dead turian for no other reason than to let you stop him and his sheilds would collapse.

Then there are people who actually played the game and know he suprise attacked an unprepared fleet unable to call in reinforcements. He assaulted it with an Armada of Geth ships that would swarm and shoot down other ships, all in a blitz attack he couldn't survive for long. When it became apparent that he couldn't defend himself any longer he tried to reactivate his the biotics of the dead agent to try and complete the objective before the assalt on him broke through his sheilds and he died, all taking place in less than an hour.

So, a nihilist sees the ending as "soveriegn is unbeatable" but anyone else would say, "you bea sovereign." Some people desperately want an impossible to beat enemy to shoehorn a fictional arbitrary moral dilema. Some people believe that difficult thing aren't impossible. You see? There are some people who like an "impossible" enemy forcing you to do something you don't want to do[but secretly are cool with]. And some people aren't cool with that.

I think you are right with that. I see quite a few people who claim that the Reapers are unbeatable.
I sometimes have to laugh at the arguments like that it took a whole fleet to destroy Sovereign. I mean it also took a whole fleet of Geth ships to destroy the Destiny Ascension. Dreadnoughts are tough if the only enemies are Cruisers.

[Pitznik]

Conventional victory is achieved by an army. If ME was a strategy game or an RTS, it would be totally possible.

RPG games (or books/movies with a single protagonist) are won by either DEM device (ring in LOTR, exploitable breach in Death Star, can't remember what in Independence Day movie) or final boss, whose death somehow kills all his army (Archdemon in DA and thousand more examples), which is something of a DEM in itself.

It would be more epic and less offensive to common sense to have conventional victory but then, Shepard wouldn't be able to achieve it. DEM is required for a protagonist to be the final deciding factor in the victory, to personally and meaningfully contribute to the final climactic moment of the war. Having super Reaper boss (computer, hive mind, whatever) controlling all other Reapers, yet possible to be beaten by Shep and his squad would be even worse than Crucible.

Modifié par Pitznik, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .

[JamesFaith]

thefallen2far wrote...
Then there are people who actually played the game and know he suprise attacked an unprepared fleet unable to call in reinforcements. He assaulted it with an Armada of Geth ships that would swarm and shoot down other ships, all in a blitz attack he couldn't survive for long. When it became apparent that he couldn't defend himself any longer he tried to reactivate his the biotics of the dead agent to try and complete the objective before the assalt on him broke through his sheilds and he died, all taking place in less than an hour.
.

Ehm, suprised attack? As someone, who actually played game, I know that Citadel was prepared for geth attack and that it was mention more then once in game.

[Conniving_Eagle]

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Mixed with

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[Dusen]

JamesFaith wrote...

thefallen2far wrote...
Then there are people who actually played the game and know he suprise attacked an unprepared fleet unable to call in reinforcements. He assaulted it with an Armada of Geth ships that would swarm and shoot down other ships, all in a blitz attack he couldn't survive for long. When it became apparent that he couldn't defend himself any longer he tried to reactivate his the biotics of the dead agent to try and complete the objective before the assalt on him broke through his sheilds and he died, all taking place in less than an hour.
.

Ehm, suprised attack? As someone, who actually played game, I know that Citadel was prepared for geth attack and that it was mention more then once in game.

I'm fairly certain it was a surprise attack. Answer me this: If the citadel forces knew about the attack before hand why didn't they bother to close the citadel until Sovereign was right on their doorstep?

[Jamie9]

Dusen wrote...
I'm fairly certain it was a surprise attack. Answer me this: If the citadel forces knew about the attack before hand why didn't they bother to close the citadel until Sovereign was right on their doorstep?

The Council knew it was coming. Shep tells them it is, and the Council says they will prepare for Saren's attack, but not go to Ilos.

I presumed they closed the arms as fast as they possibly could, but Sovereign was too fast. After all, only Sovereign makes it, none of the Geth do.

[Tealjaker94]

Sovereign didn't even bother to engage the ships because they posed absolutely no threat to him. Even after the citadel opens and the entire 5th fleet moves in you can't even breach his barriers.

[Sajuro]

zambot wrote...

Whether or not you consider the crucible to be a Deus Ex Machima is dependent on whether you believe introducing it at the beginning of ME3 is sufficiently far from the climax. I do believe that it was introduced sufficiently far enough in advance that it's not a DEM, but I can certainly see someone's point that by introducing it in the 3rd game makes it one.

Beyond a doubt, though, the Catalyst is a DEM or sorts.

Michael Creighton sold a crap ton of books, but he had this habit of creating impossible problems for his characters to solve, and thus almost all of his books ended with a DEM. Rather silly if you ask me.

If you would consider the Crucible to be a DEM, then the file you get from Vigil would be a DEM. I would say the Catalyst is Macguffin more than Deus Ex Machine, we know we need the catalyst but it could be the citadel, a lost power orb, or a pink pony. The Crucible is a plot ticket if anything

[Jamie9]

Sajuro wrote...

If you would consider the Crucible to be a DEM, then the file you get from Vigil would be a DEM. I would say the Catalyst is Macguffin more than Deus Ex Machine, we know we need the catalyst but it could be the citadel, a lost power orb, or a pink pony. The Crucible is a plot ticket if anything

Vigil is a DEM. He just spews out exposition. It's awesome, because of the music and the awe of the Protheans. But it's still a DEM.

I'd agree that the Catalyst is a Macguffin. It's what you're after, what you're trying to find.

[JamesFaith]

Dusen wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

thefallen2far wrote...
Then there are people who actually played the game and know he suprise attacked an unprepared fleet unable to call in reinforcements. He assaulted it with an Armada of Geth ships that would swarm and shoot down other ships, all in a blitz attack he couldn't survive for long. When it became apparent that he couldn't defend himself any longer he tried to reactivate his the biotics of the dead agent to try and complete the objective before the assalt on him broke through his sheilds and he died, all taking place in less than an hour.
.

Ehm, suprised attack? As someone, who actually played game, I know that Citadel was prepared for geth attack and that it was mention more then once in game.

I'm fairly certain it was a surprise attack. Answer me this: If the citadel forces knew about the attack before hand why didn't they bother to close the citadel until Sovereign was right on their doorstep?

Because there is difference between suprise attack and underestimating your enemy. They simply believed that Citadel fleet was strong enough, because they though Sovereign is just big geth cruiser.

[v TricKy v]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Sovereign didn't even bother to engage the ships because they posed absolutely no threat to him. Even after the citadel opens and the entire 5th fleet moves in you can't even breach his barriers.

Like I said in an earlier post. Dreadnoughts are pretty tough when only Cruisers are firing. The Destiny Ascension endured pretty long too after being surrounded by Geh ships

[Eain]

zambot wrote...

Eain wrote...

zambot wrote...

Whether or not you consider the crucible to be a Deus Ex Machima is dependent on whether you believe introducing it at the beginning of ME3 is sufficiently far from the climax.

The time at which a DEM is introduced has nothing to do with whether or it not is one, actually. It is entirely possible to write a story and introduce the DEM in the very first chapter.

I disagree.  I use this definition of a DEM:

 a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

If the crucible were introduced along with the reapers in ME1, then it would certainly not be a DEM.  The story would have been about building the cruicible over 3 games perhaps, and not have been a sudden or abrupt solution.

Except your definition never states when this intervention is supposed to happen. If I create a fantasy world in which noone has magical powers and the premise is that the evil dark lord is going to destroy the peaceful people of the forest, then the challenge for them is to overcome their lack of magic and win, somehow. But if I were to start chapter one with the introduction of Bob the Caster who teleports around galaxies to find worlds in need of protection and has the talent to fling fireballs the size of the sun he would be present throughout the entire story but would have no logical presence in the setting and the plot. He would still a convenient arrival designed to make the protagonist race win when all seemed doomed.

Modifié par Eain, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[o Ventus]

Because reasons.

[Gold Dragon]

Pitznik wrote...

RPG games (or books/movies with a single protagonist) are won by either DEM device (ring in LOTR, exploitable breach in Death Star, can't remember what in Independence Day movie) or final boss, whose death somehow kills all his army (Archdemon in DA and thousand more examples), which is something of a DEM in itself.

Independence Day Movie installed a Virus into the mothership that lowered all shields on all vessels.

The Arch-Demon's Death in DA:O didn't kill off all the Darkspawn.  They lost confidence and fled the battle.  DEM?  Maybe, maybe not.

Hidden weaknesses are really better than flat out DEM, IMO. Sovereign was over-confident, and thus, destroyed.

[Tealjaker94]

v TricKy v wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Sovereign didn't even bother to engage the ships because they posed absolutely no threat to him. Even after the citadel opens and the entire 5th fleet moves in you can't even breach his barriers.

Like I said in an earlier post. Dreadnoughts are pretty tough when only Cruisers are firing. The Destiny Ascension endured pretty long too after being surrounded by Geh ships

Yeah the fifth fleet has dreadnoughts in it. And even if the Reapers were only equal to the DA they'd still be stronger than any ship we have.

[wantedman dan]

o Ventus wrote...

Because reasons.

Irrefutable.

[zambot]

Eain wrote...

zambot wrote...

Eain wrote...

zambot wrote...

Whether or not you consider the crucible to be a Deus Ex Machima is dependent on whether you believe introducing it at the beginning of ME3 is sufficiently far from the climax.

The time at which a DEM is introduced has nothing to do with whether or it not is one, actually. It is entirely possible to write a story and introduce the DEM in the very first chapter.

I disagree.  I use this definition of a DEM:

 a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

If the crucible were introduced along with the reapers in ME1, then it would certainly not be a DEM.  The story would have been about building the cruicible over 3 games perhaps, and not have been a sudden or abrupt solution.

Except your definition never states when this intervention is supposed to happen. If I create a fantasy world in which noone has magical powers and the premise is that the evil dark lord is going to destroy the peaceful people of the forest, then the challenge for them is to overcome their lack of magic and win, somehow. But if I were to start chapter one with the introduction of Bob the Caster who teleports around galaxies to find worlds in need of protection and has the talent to fling fireballs the size of the sun he would be present throughout the entire story but would have no logical presence in the setting and the plot. He would still a convenient arrival designed to make the protagonist race win when all seemed doomed.

We just have different definitions of DEM then.  It's been a long time since I took any proper lit classes, but I've always understood that Bob the Caster doesn't fit the definition of a DEM for the reasons I stated.  I can see why Bob fits the role for you because he suddenly appears in the world.  I've been taught he would suddenly have to appear in the story.  So in my case, the story is just about a god character named Bob who saves the world.  

[v TricKy v]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Sovereign didn't even bother to engage the ships because they posed absolutely no threat to him. Even after the citadel opens and the entire 5th fleet moves in you can't even breach his barriers.

Like I said in an earlier post. Dreadnoughts are pretty tough when only Cruisers are firing. The Destiny Ascension endured pretty long too after being surrounded by Geh ships

Yeah the fifth fleet has dreadnoughts in it. And even if the Reapers were only equal to the DA they'd still be stronger than any ship we have.

Well the cinematics only show Cruisers firing so their is litlle conflict in what is true. 

[Binary_Helix 1]

thefallen2far wrote...

Some people are nihilists. Like for instance, they saw the end of Mass Effect 1 and thought Soverign annnounced he was going to assault the citadel by himself and show up with trashcans in orbit around him that didn't do mech, he took every shot from every ship fired at it, begging for more for days on end and then luckily downloaded all his power into the body of a dead turian for no other reason than to let you stop him and his sheilds would collapse.

Then there are people who actually played the game and know he suprise attacked an unprepared fleet unable to call in reinforcements. He assaulted it with an Armada of Geth ships that would swarm and shoot down other ships, all in a blitz attack he couldn't survive for long. When it became apparent that he couldn't defend himself any longer he tried to reactivate his the biotics of the dead agent to try and complete the objective before the assalt on him broke through his sheilds and he died, all taking place in less than an hour.

So, a nihilist sees the ending as "soveriegn is unbeatable" but anyone else would say, "you bea sovereign." Some people desperately want an impossible to beat enemy to shoehorn a fictional arbitrary moral dilema. Some people believe that difficult thing aren't impossible. You see? There are some people who like an "impossible" enemy forcing you to do something you don't want to do[but secretly are cool with]. And some people aren't cool with that.

Well said.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Jamie9 wrote...

Dusen wrote...
I'm fairly certain it was a surprise attack. Answer me this: If the citadel forces knew about the attack before hand why didn't they bother to close the citadel until Sovereign was right on their doorstep?

The Council knew it was coming. Shep tells them it is, and the Council says they will prepare for Saren's attack, but not go to Ilos.

I presumed they closed the arms as fast as they possibly could, but Sovereign was too fast. After all, only Sovereign makes it, none of the Geth do.

The council didn't know an attack was coming. Even Shepard doesn't really know until near the end. All the council does is deploy fleets to safeguard Citadel space not the Citdael itself.

The Geth served as a decoy to occupy everyone else so Sovereign can do his thing.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:59 .

[Sajuro]

Jamie9 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If you would consider the Crucible to be a DEM, then the file you get from Vigil would be a DEM. I would say the Catalyst is Macguffin more than Deus Ex Machine, we know we need the catalyst but it could be the citadel, a lost power orb, or a pink pony. The Crucible is a plot ticket if anything

Vigil is a DEM. He just spews out exposition. It's awesome, because of the music and the awe of the Protheans. But it's still a DEM.

I'd agree that the Catalyst is a Macguffin. It's what you're after, what you're trying to find.

I still don't think the Crucible qualifies as a Deus Ex Machina because after Lazarus Project, mind control being a biotic ability, and the Thorian/Indoctrinantion I think that Mass Effect is Science Fantasy and the dark energy device that releases a burst of energy through the relay networks is perfectly acceptable.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Sajuro wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If you would consider the Crucible to be a DEM, then the file you get from Vigil would be a DEM. I would say the Catalyst is Macguffin more than Deus Ex Machine, we know we need the catalyst but it could be the citadel, a lost power orb, or a pink pony. The Crucible is a plot ticket if anything

Vigil is a DEM. He just spews out exposition. It's awesome, because of the music and the awe of the Protheans. But it's still a DEM.

I'd agree that the Catalyst is a Macguffin. It's what you're after, what you're trying to find.

I still don't think the Crucible qualifies as a Deus Ex Machina because after Lazarus Project, mind control being a biotic ability, and the Thorian/Indoctrinantion I think that Mass Effect is Science Fantasy and the dark energy device that releases a burst of energy through the relay networks is perfectly acceptable.

No.

Mass Effect is sci-fi. It just so happens to strike the right balance. Star Wars is too fantasy focused which makes it unrealistic. Star Trek is too science focused which makes it boring. Mass Effect combined the best of both. The only problem arises is when it goes off into one direction and that being fantasy come ME3.

[Tealjaker94]

v TricKy v wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Sovereign didn't even bother to engage the ships because they posed absolutely no threat to him. Even after the citadel opens and the entire 5th fleet moves in you can't even breach his barriers.

Like I said in an earlier post. Dreadnoughts are pretty tough when only Cruisers are firing. The Destiny Ascension endured pretty long too after being surrounded by Geh ships

Yeah the fifth fleet has dreadnoughts in it. And even if the Reapers were only equal to the DA they'd still be stronger than any ship we have.

Well the cinematics only show Cruisers firing so their is litlle conflict in what is true. 

We have zero idea exactly what the difference between an alliance cruiser and a dreadnought is. I would assume a dreadnought just looks like a big cruiser so for all you know one of those ships could be a dreadnought.  And again, the DA gets destroyed by all those geth ships. Sovereign takes absolutely no damage until all of his systems are disabled. Thus Sovereign>DA>all our other ships. The Reapers also far outnumber us. So if the Reapers have more ships than us and each ship is individually stronger than each of ours, I'm not sure why you think we can just beat them in a straight-up fight.

[savionen]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

RPG games (or books/movies with a single protagonist) are won by either DEM device (ring in LOTR, exploitable breach in Death Star, can't remember what in Independence Day movie) or final boss, whose death somehow kills all his army (Archdemon in DA and thousand more examples), which is something of a DEM in itself.

Independence Day Movie installed a Virus into the mothership that lowered all shields on all vessels.

The Arch-Demon's Death in DA:O didn't kill off all the Darkspawn.  They lost confidence and fled the battle.  DEM?  Maybe, maybe not.

Hidden weaknesses are really better than flat out DEM, IMO. Sovereign was over-confident, and thus, destroyed.

Would have been a lot more satisfying. They're arrogant.

Instead we have no real dialogue, and you're basically talking to a 3rd party that doesn't really care what happens. ANTICLIMATIC.

[Jamie9]

Sajuro wrote...

I still don't think the Crucible qualifies as a Deus Ex Machina because after Lazarus Project, mind control being a biotic ability, and the Thorian/Indoctrinantion I think that Mass Effect is Science Fantasy and the dark energy device that releases a burst of energy through the relay networks is perfectly acceptable.

The Crucible itself isn't a DEM, but the functions it enables are, I think. The option of Synthesis especially. Control and Destroy were both foreshadowed right at the beginning - at Mars.

Synthesis can supposedly solve all your problems, and is never even so much as alluded to beforehand.

Mass Effect has always been Science Fiction to me with Fantastical elements given Sci-Fi explanations. Things like the Lazarus Project are clearly Fantasy elements, yet they are explained in a Sci-Fi manner. It's a subtle difference, though.