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[Dean_the_Young]

Joccaren wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This is an amusing thread, not least for all the people calling the Crucible or even the Catalyst a deus ex machina.

The Star Child? You could make that claim, but the Star Child was an exposition device, not the solution. It only explained what long-established devices would do, it didn't provide them out of nowhere.

Well, it technically fits the criteria. It never states "Must appear at the last 5 minutes", only that it is contrived, sudden, abrupt and unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, tell me that the Crucible at the start of ME3 was not Contrived, Abrupt, sudden and unexpected. It was nothing but those things.

Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

[Xeranx]

Demadrio wrote...

Eain wrote...

Again you are wrong. Blatantly, flat-out wrong. The only reason the galaxy was unprepared had nothing to do with the Reapers and everything with the infinite and CONTRIVED stupidity the galaxy's rulers.

*sigh*

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The galaxy's rulers were indoctrinated.

Reaper artifacts can indoctrinate anyone over prolonged exposure. This is a point made over and over in the games. So is the point that the Citadel is a Reaper artifact.

Sovereign specifically states that the main function of the Citadel and the mass relays to ensure that galactic civilization evolves the way the Reapers want it to.

Again: the Council was not stupid, it was indoctrinated by the Reapers to dismiss Shepard's warnings. Which fits perfectly into established lore and history within the ME verse. And if you started ME3 expecting the Council to behave differently, you simply weren't paying attention.

Wouldn't that mean that the catalyst was exerting some amount of force in getting the Council to think differently about the threat of the Reapers?  By the end of the first game, the Council had realized that they had buried their heads in the sand.  A month later in ME2, they have Shepard looking for Geth forces.  Two years later, within the same story, they classify Shepard as delusional.  If you select Anderson as a Councilor...actually never mind that, Anderson is on the Citadel regardless of your choice and he still believes you.

Now, of course, it could be said that Anderson was given the go ahead to believe as he wished so that Shepard would spin his/her wheels, but why bother if the Council decides where Shepard operates in the end regardless of Spectre status?

Then there's side characters like Chorban and his partner (forgot his name) who come up with a way to scan the Keepers who were previously impervious to any method of scanning.  Did the Catalyst influence them as well?

Then there's other bits with the Council finally helping Shepard in an effort to keep their civilations safe.  Why the change, and why are they able to make that change if we come to some agreement that the Catalyst did indoctrinate them?  I ask this because Saren was indoctrinated and it took him considerable effort to ignore Sovereign's influence and kill himself.  The Council members don't seem to have had any trouble at all.

[Eain]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Nope, absolutely wrong. The eleventh hour has nothing to do with it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Being the contrived solution to an insurmountable problem is the key facet. That's it, nothing more. When this problem occurs is of no relevance. If there is a problem at all and it is overcome by a contrived solution then there is a deus ex machina.

Nothing dictates that this has to happen at the last possible moment, and nothing makes a contrived thing's consistent presence any less contrived. If the plot does not establish the solution to a problem before it presents itself, then it is a deus ex machina. All Mass Effect 3 does is present us the contrived solution to the Reaper problem at the start, and then it stalls until it can stall no more, and then the solution does the very thing it could also have immediately done.

Do note that for storytelling purposes it would not have mattered at all if the Crucible had been found ready for use or whether it had to be constructed first. The entire construction process is an arbitrary delay there to present the illusion of a story. In fact there is no story: Reapers invade, Crucible is conveniently found, Crucible deploys, Reapers die, the end. Nothing that happens in between makes any difference as to whether it gets deployed or not, therefore it exists in a realm entirely of its own, disjointed, disconnected and separated from the setting we have come to know.

It's a DEM.

Modifié par Eain, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Xeranx]

Eire Icon wrote...

Eain wrote...

Can anyone tell me in what world it's considered quality writing to make an enemy invincible just to give the writer an opportunity to resolve the conflict with a deus ex machina?

People keep saying "we can't beat the Reapers in conventional warfare, we need some sort of superweapon."

Why should that be the premise of a story? Even if you strongly feel that we cannot beat the Reapers conventionally, does it at least not feel like rather childish storytelling?

Just curious.

Firstly the Reapers are not invincible, they are superior, There is a difference

The fact that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally is the story !!! - If conventional victory was possible Shepard would not have had the same level of influence, it would have gone down completely different paths. The Reapers superiority is the premise for the story !

I disagree with the last statement.  I don't see how Shepard would be less influential if a conventional victory was possible.  It's kind of like saying the Protheans are less influential if a conventional victory is possible.  The Protheans gave us an early warning message...that we couldn't understand, but it got the ball rolling.  For Shepard, every piece of evidence gave Shepard more conviction that what s/he was taking the right course of action.  Had the galaxy beaten the Reapers in a conventional battle it would be because Shepard never gave up pursuing the goal of thwarting the Reapers.

[MrDavid]

Well it's not like the Reapers are far more advanced than anyone else and even just one of them is strong enough to take on multiple fleets and only loses because it assumes control of a weaker proxy. Because if that were actually true, you would look like a total idiot. You dodged a bullet there OP.

[Kamfrenchie]

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Nope, absolutely wrong. The eleventh hour has nothing to do with it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Being the contrived solution to an insurmountable problem is the key facet. That's it, nothing more. When this problem occurs is of no relevance. If there is a problem at all and it is overcome by a contrived solution then there is a deus ex machine.

Nothing dictates that this has to happen at the last possible moment, and nothing makes a contrived thing's consistent presence any less contrived. If the plot does not establish the solution to a problem before it presents itself, then it is a deus ex machina. All Mass Effect 3 does is present us the contrived solution to the Reaper problem at the start, and then it stalls until it can stall no more, and then the solution does the very thing it could also have immediately done. Do note that for storytelling purposes it would not have mattered at all if the Crucible had been found ready for use or whether it had to be constructed first. The entire construction process is an arbitrary delay there to present the illusion of a story. In fact there is no story: Crucible is found, Crucible deploys, the end. Nothing that happens in between matters.

It's a DEM.

I kind of agree, though even if anyone wants to deny that the crcible is a DEM, it's still at least an ass pull, and bad writing
Epecially if you consider all he nonsense about it. "No one ever made it work dring the previous cycle, none of us undersand how it works, we don't know whtat we're doing, stop trying to question the plot you entitled player"

[Kamfrenchie]

MrDavid wrote...

Well it's not like the Reapers are far more advanced than anyone else and even just one of them is strong enough to take on multiple fleets and only loses because it assumes control of a weaker proxy. Because if that were actually true, you would look like a total idiot. You dodged a bullet there OP.

sovereign didn't take on multiple fleets by himself. He had a geth armada, and killed a few cruisers. He didn't kill multiple fleets.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Nope, absolutely wrong. The eleventh hour has nothing to do with it. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Making a claim repeatedly doesn't make you correct.

Being the contrived solution to an insurmountable problem is the key facet. That's it, nothing more. When this problem occurs is of no relevance. If there is a problem at all and it is overcome by a contrived solution then there is a deus ex machina.

All solutions are contrived. Fiction, by its nature, is contrived and arbitrary. You're making a meaningless definition.

Nothing dictates that this has to happen at the last possible moment, and nothing makes a contrived thing's consistent presence any less contrived. If the plot does not establish the solution to a problem before it presents itself, then it is a deus ex machina. All Mass Effect 3 does is present us the contrived solution to the Reaper problem at the start, and then it stalls until it can stall no more, and then the solution does the very thing it could also have immediately done.

The timing is what dictates a deus ex machina: the sudden and immediate appearance before the solution is enacted. If there is a significant delay or development between the introduction of a solution and its enaction, it ceases to be a deus ex machina.

Do note that for storytelling purposes it would not have mattered at all if the Crucible had been found ready for use or whether it had to be constructed first. The entire construction process is an arbitrary delay there to present the illusion of a story.In fact there is no story: Reapers invade, Crucible is conveniently found, Crucible deploys, Reapers die, the end. Nothing that happens in between makes any difference as to whether it gets deployed or not, therefore it exists in a realm entirely of its own, disjointed, disconnected and separated from the setting we have come to know.

All fiction is can fit your depiction: all plot developments are arbitrary, and exist to create an impression. You can always over-simply any scenario, no matter how complex, in both fiction and reality.


You're letting your bias and dislike show through.

It's a DEM.

It is not a deus ex machina, because deus ex machina is not synonymous with plot device solution.

[Eain]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Nope, absolutely wrong. The eleventh hour has nothing to do with it. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Making a claim repeatedly doesn't make you correct.

True. Being correct makes me correct. I have no desire to debate this any further. I have the feeling that if Liara had literally called the thing "a Deus Ex Machina device I found plans for in the archives" you would have disputed its nature. No skin off my back, in the end. I'm only agitated you're so stubbornly wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

I kind of agree, though even if anyone wants to deny that the crcible is a DEM, it's still at least an ass pull, and bad writing

It's as much an asspull and bad writing as, say, the Conduit, or the Cypher, or the Reaper IFF, or the Omega Relay, or the Reapers themselves.

It's a plot device. It's not a particularly well handled one, but it's hardly a fundamentally flawed one.

Epecially if you consider all he nonsense about it. "No one ever made it work dring the previous cycle, none of us undersand how it works, we don't know whtat we're doing, stop trying to question the plot you entitled player"

Most of that nonsense comes from the people claiming to be offended by the nonsense. These are the same people who conveniently ignore that no species has also ever successfully fought off the Reapers in any previous cycle as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Nope, absolutely wrong. The eleventh hour has nothing to do with it. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Making a claim repeatedly doesn't make you correct.

True. Being correct makes me correct.

Except you are not correct, because you are using a personal, rather than objective, definition of deus ex machina that includes nearly all plot devices regardless of nature.

I have no desire to debate this any further.

Except you do, because you want the last word. Even money is that you'll respond to this as well.

I have the feeling that if Liara had literally called the thing "a Deus Ex Machina device I found plans for in the archives" you would have disputed its nature. No skin off my back, in the end.

What Liara calls it would be irrelevant to what it is: what it is would be what it qualifies as.

I'm only agitated you're so stubbornly wrong.

I'm sure you feel that way. I'm also getting a faint expectation that you encounter this agitation a lot.

[Daniel_N7]

Eain wrote...

(...) All Mass Effect 3 does is present us the contrived solution to the Reaper problem at the start, and then it stalls until it can stall no more, and then the solution does the very thing it could also have immediately done.

Do note that for storytelling purposes it would not have mattered at all if the Crucible had been found ready for use or whether it had to be constructed first. The entire construction process is an arbitrary delay there to present the illusion of a story. In fact there is no story: Reapers invade, Crucible is conveniently found, Crucible deploys, Reapers die, the end. Nothing that happens in between makes any difference as to whether it gets deployed or not, therefore it exists in a realm entirely of its own, disjointed, disconnected and separated from the setting we have come to know.

It's a DEM.

Just quoting this because I agree completely.

Also, regarding the notion of not being possible to defeat the Reapers conventionally:

If that was the case, then the Reapers could just invade the galaxy - as they do in ME3 - and exterminate / harvest everyone. Every cycle - except this one - started with a surprise invasion of the Citadel. This allowed the Reapers to take control of the galactic government - possibly indoctrinating its most influent members - and then proceeding to harvest the various unprepared species.

Shepard achieved something extraordinaty in ME1 - s/he prevented the Reaper surprise attack. This should represent a serious sidestep of the Reaper's strategy. But, no, in ME3 the Reapers arrive on Earth by surprise. How idiotic is that - in such an advanced future, an invasion of hundreds or thousands massive enemy warships manages to travel to Earth and nobody knows about it until they descend in the skies. «We lost contact with Luna base». For christ sakes, people with telescopes could see an attack on the moon.

So, yeah, the whole setting of ME3 is flawed, standing on a false premise - «the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally» - and a goal - the Crucible - that is in direct contradiction with your previous efforts in past games.

[humes spork]

Eain wrote...

True. Being correct makes me correct. I have no desire to debate this any further. I have the feeling that if Liara had literally called the thing "a Deus Ex Machina device I found plans for in the archives" you would have disputed its nature. No skin off my back, in the end. I'm only agitated you're so stubbornly wrong.

No, Dean is correct in this regard. Both the classical and contemporary definitions of deus ex machina carry the very strong connotation that it is a plot device used to answer the dramatic question, resolve the primary narrative, or resolve the climax to a given work. This connotation is identified and made distinct by numerous writers in history, not the least of which being Tolkein, who identified a distinct plot device virtually identical to but employed during the falling action or denouement, which he coined the eucatastrophe. Given the connotations of deus ex machina's definition, it must logically be used during the climax in order to follow traditional narrative structure, particularly the three-act structure most common in science fiction and fantasy.

Make of that what you will. I have no interest in bickering mirthlessly with people less interested in a meaningful discussion than pushing a narrative regarding the quality of ME3's ending. In what I do have interest is, regardless to whatever end, people are using (un-)applicable terms correctly rather than haphazardly in order to make themselves sound authoritative.

Modifié par humes spork, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:56 .

[PinkysPain]

Easier to call the Crucible a McGuffin and the the Starchild a Diabolus Ex Machina ... Lucas's definition of the former fits the Crucible well enough (the fact that it's from Lucas makes it extra appropriate) and someone already simply added ME3 to the tvtropes page for the latter ... so it automatically applies.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .

[Reptilian Rob]

MegaSovereign wrote...

You can't beat them conventionally because it isn't a conventional war.

When was the last time a war only ended when the other side is absolutely obliterated? Never. In conventional war the side that does the most damage to the other wins. In the Reaper war even if you managed to wipe out 75% of the Reaper forces, the other 25% will still be relentless.

This isn't a war fought over territory or power. It's about survival.

And this man just nailed it. 

[DiebytheSword]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This is an amusing thread, not least for all the people calling the Crucible or even the Catalyst a deus ex machina.

The Star Child? You could make that claim, but the Star Child was an exposition device, not the solution. It only explained what long-established devices would do, it didn't provide them out of nowhere.

Well, it technically fits the criteria. It never states "Must appear at the last 5 minutes", only that it is contrived, sudden, abrupt and unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, tell me that the Crucible at the start of ME3 was not Contrived, Abrupt, sudden and unexpected. It was nothing but those things.

Appearing at the eleventh hour out of nowhere is  the key facet of a deus ex machina.

Before ME3 came out, and we were all digging through the leaked TLK files, I had this argument so many times it made my fingers hurt from the excessive typing to explain that this is a key feature of a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere at the last moment to conveniently solve the plot.

Deus, a God, would literally come in via rope, and resolve the plot of the Greek play.

Just because popular usage is crowd sourced, doesn't mean it trumps the actual origins and usage of the phrase.  I can't decide that parsnip actually means cheese doodle, have my freinds agree with me, and change the meaning of the word parsnip.

[Dean_the_Young]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Before ME3 came out, and we were all digging through the leaked TLK files, I had this argument so many times it made my fingers hurt from the excessive typing to explain that this is a key feature of a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere at the last moment to conveniently solve the plot.

Deus, a God, would literally come in via rope, and resolve the plot of the Greek play.

Just because popular usage is crowd sourced, doesn't mean it trumps the actual origins and usage of the phrase.  I can't decide that parsnip actually means cheese doodle, have my freinds agree with me, and change the meaning of the word parsnip.

Parsnips... those are those round brown things farmers grow, right?

[Demadrio]

DeepChild wrote...

The Reapers are not an enemy in the traditional sense.  They are so advanced, so powerful, so numerous, that they are more akin to a force of nature, a Lovecraftian horror, if you will.  All throughout ME1 and 2 we're led to believe that if the Reapers arrive in our galaxy, we're completely doomed.  From the very beginning of ME3, we're shown just how devastating the Reapers are.  It's been stated a thousand times in discussions about the endings that the goal in the ME games is the destruction of the Reapers.  I take issue with that.  It's really to find a way to survive the raging storm that has consumed every civilization in every cycle before.  Yes, Shep wants to destroy them.  Who wouldn't after seeing the atrocities they've committed.  But that's often phrased as "I'll find some way to stop them".  And that's all Shep can really hope for: some way to stop the killing.

Agreed. I liked that too. I reminds me of FreeSpace, a sci-fi game from about 15 years ago which featured a similarly unstoppable, incomprehensible alien force bent on wiping humans of the face of the galaxy. (Unfortunately, the third game in that trilogy was never developed, so the aliens' motives and the fate of human civilization remains a mystery.)

[Gold Dragon]

DiebytheSword wrote...
Before ME3 came out, and we were all digging through the leaked TLK files, I had this argument so many times it made my fingers hurt from the excessive typing to explain that this is a key feature of a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere at the last moment to conveniently solve the plot.

Deus, a God, would literally come in via rope, and resolve the plot of the Greek play.

Just because popular usage is crowd sourced, doesn't mean it trumps the actual origins and usage of the phrase.  I can't decide that parsnip actually means cheese doodle, have my freinds agree with me, and change the meaning of the word parsnip.

Actually, it's not a rope but a crane.  Ropes are involved, but it's a crane.  Sometimes the actor comes from below the stage via an elevator (the devil? ), both of which are definitions of DEM.

[Dean_the_Young]

So maybe if the Star Child had been lowered in on a noose...

Too soon?

[DiebytheSword]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Before ME3 came out, and we were all digging through the leaked TLK files, I had this argument so many times it made my fingers hurt from the excessive typing to explain that this is a key feature of a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere at the last moment to conveniently solve the plot.

Deus, a God, would literally come in via rope, and resolve the plot of the Greek play.

Just because popular usage is crowd sourced, doesn't mean it trumps the actual origins and usage of the phrase.  I can't decide that parsnip actually means cheese doodle, have my freinds agree with me, and change the meaning of the word parsnip.

Parsnips... those are those round brown things farmers grow, right?

Hardly, my freinds and I decided that they are now jet puffed corn meal with flavoring.  They appear orange. 

[PinkysPain]

Couldn't be soon enough.

[DiebytheSword]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...
Before ME3 came out, and we were all digging through the leaked TLK files, I had this argument so many times it made my fingers hurt from the excessive typing to explain that this is a key feature of a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere at the last moment to conveniently solve the plot.

Deus, a God, would literally come in via rope, and resolve the plot of the Greek play.

Just because popular usage is crowd sourced, doesn't mean it trumps the actual origins and usage of the phrase.  I can't decide that parsnip actually means cheese doodle, have my freinds agree with me, and change the meaning of the word parsnip.

Actually, it's not a rope but a crane.  Ropes are involved, but it's a crane.  Sometimes the actor comes from below the stage via an elevator (the devil? ), both of which are definitions of DEM.

Quite true, but the crux of my argument remains.

So maybe if the Star Child had been lowered in on a noose...

Too soon?

As you've said yourself Dean, things can be bad without being a deus ex machina . . .

[Heather Cline]

Totally agree with the OP and the fact that you couldn't reunite with crew and LI even with the so called destroy option still ticks me off. It was bad writing, bad implementation and overall bad game development. As well as laziness.

[Heather Cline]

Edit double post

Modifié par Heather Cline, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .