236 réponses à ce sujet

[PoisonMushroom]

I've read a few different threads on this ending. Some saying that refuse is the ending you have to pick if you don't metagame. Others that say it's an FU right at players. 

At first I agreed with both of these points. It's seemed to me like the most in-character of all the endings for my Shepard to pick, but at the same time it felt like Bioware was slapping me on the wrists for choosing it. I found this confusing and treated it as sort of a non-ending at first.

I've since re-evaluated it. I do still think of it as a giant FU, but I also think that's the beauty of it. Let me explain.

I strongly believe that the refuse ending is most in keeping with Shepard's character throughout the trilogy. Particularly a paragon Shepard. This might not be the case for every Shepard, but I believe it is the case for most and it is certainly the case for my Shepard. I've said this before but refuse is the same choice that Bioware has given you time and time again, the only difference in the endings is that Bioware decided that, this time, choosing it kills you.

Shepard gets things done and he gets them done on his own terms; he would certainly never by bend to the will of a unknown creepy AI that's admitted to doing some pretty evil stuff, takes the form of a child from his dreams and acts in league with the Reapers. In the original endings, this created a massive narrative disconnect between myself and Shepard because I couldn't understand what the hell Shepard was doing when he went along with this.

It's also worth thinking about as a choice for the player and not just Shepard. I actually believe now, if you dislike the endings then the MORE you metagame, the more refuse makes sense. In my mind I'd refused Bioware's endings long before it was available as an option in the game. I did it when I came on here for the first time to see if anyone else felt the same way, I did it when I started reading fan-fiction and I did it when I wrote my own ending. Now I have an option to do it in-game as well as out of the game. 

But of course Bioware has added some big consequences to refusing the Catalyst's/Bioware choices and sticking to your beliefs just gets Shepard and the world you love killed. There's probably a really good quote somewhere that can sum this up better than I can but I would say that it's in the face of possible death that our beliefs are most stenuously put to the test.

It's odd that in the refuse ending Bioware has drawn parallels between themselves and the Reapers/catalyst but in doing so they've managed to do what I thought was impossible. They've not only given my Shepard a plausible choice, but they also re-established the connection between myself and my Shepard. I believe that Bioware's endings are terrible so I refuse them. My Shepard believes that the Catalyst's choices are terrible so he refuses them too.

So the refuse ending may be a massive FU but if it is, it's one from me and my Shepard as we hold the line and go down for the same values we've employed from the moment ME1 went in the disc tray. And in a weird and twisted way, it's not a bad way to end the trilogy.

[Jenonax]

Join us Brother! The Cult of the Refusers will grow ever stronger!

Seriously though I love it because it gave me back Shepard. I would have loved it even more if it had let to conventional victory rather than "Derp, everyones dead. Sucks to be you!"

[PoisonMushroom]

Ha. I feel like I've had an epiphany. I might even get myself one of those sigs.

[zambot]

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

[v TricKy v]

Welcome

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't fit my Shepard, who's greatly Paragon, of course, but also capable of understanding that sometimes, you just can't win perfectly. It would have been ideal to simply disable Sovereign so that it didn't have to explode and kill a bunch of people on the Citadel with its debris, but we couldn't do that; it didn't mean we refused to fight Sovereign. It would have been ideal to save the colonists from the Collector base, but we couldn't do that; it didn't mean we refused to bring down the Collectors. This decision is no different, and you can't interact with an ideal as if it was reality if you want to succeed at anything.

[UltmtBiz]

I liked it too.

[PoisonMushroom]

zambot wrote...

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

The fan-Bioware context and shortness of the ending make it seem as if it's an FU even if it wasn't intended that way. Either way it doesn't really matter. If it's not Bioware FU, then I'm happy to make it mine.

Glad you agree on the other stuff also.

[Xilizhra]

zambot wrote...

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

You know what my principles are? "No one gets left behind." "Save all the lives you can." "Personal isn't the same as important." "Everyone deserves a chance at life." Have different principles if you wish, but don't claim that mine, as a Paragon, are compromised by not picking Refusal.

[Galbrant]

zambot wrote...

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

The fact that you can trigger the refusal ending by shooting the catalyst speaks volume on their intent. There is no logical reason add it unless you want to spite your fans. 

[PoisonMushroom]

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't fit my Shepard, who's greatly Paragon, of course, but also capable of understanding that sometimes, you just can't win perfectly. It would have been ideal to simply disable Sovereign so that it didn't have to explode and kill a bunch of people on the Citadel with its debris, but we couldn't do that; it didn't mean we refused to fight Sovereign. It would have been ideal to save the colonists from the Collector base, but we couldn't do that; it didn't mean we refused to bring down the Collectors. This decision is no different, and you can't interact with an ideal as if it was reality if you want to succeed at anything.

I think this is where the metagaming thing comes in again. As I said before Refuse is the same choice my paragon Shepard has always been making, it's only that in this instance that it kills you. 
He refused Saren's offers to join with Sovereign in what essentially sounds like Synthesis anyway. He refused TIMs views on Control. The player might know that refuse leads to death, but Shepard doesn't. Refuse isn't the same as giving in.

Shepard has very little reason to believe the Catalysts solutions will work. He also doesn't know that refusing will lead to death, because he's always refused and he's always pulled it out of the bag. What he does know is that if he refuses and we lose, we'll have lost the 'right' way.

[Galbrant]

Jenonax, you don't happen to have a femshep version of that banner? O_o

[Xilizhra]

I think this is where the metagaming thing comes in again. As I said before Refuse is the same choice my paragon Shepard has always been making, it's only that in this instance that it kills you.
He refused Saren's offers to join with Sovereign in what essentially sounds like Synthesis anyway. He refused TIMs views on Control. The player might know that refuse leads to death, but Shepard doesn't. Refuse isn't the same as giving in.

But Refuse is the same as giving in in this case. The circumstances are wholly different. It isn't the same sort of choice at all.

Shepard has very little reason to believe the Catalysts solutions will work. He also doesn't know that refusing will lead to death, because he's always refused and he's always pulled it out of the bag. What he does know is that if he refuses and we lose, we'll have lost the 'right' way.

Then not only is your Shepard metagaming, but metagaming incorrectly. Harbinger is attacking the Crucible right now--that's why you get a critical mission failure if you take too long to make a decision. There's absolutely nothing Shepard can do in time if she doesn't act on one of the Catalyst's solutions.

[MegaSovereign]

Hipsters

[Jenonax]

Galbrant wrote...

Jenonax, you don't happen to have a femshep version of that banner? O_o

Unfortunately not my friend.  The chap in my sig made it for me.  PM him I'm sure he'd oblige 

[Joe Del Toro]

Galbrant wrote...

Jenonax, you don't happen to have a femshep version of that banner? O_o

I made the banner. I can try and do a femshep one if you want.

[Dharvy]

I do a little writing so I have different Shepards making different decisions throughout the 3 games. So while one of my Shepards may choose Control, another may Destroy, or Synthesis or maybe but I'm not sure any of my Shepards could gather the whole galaxy to help against the reapers partly with the knowledge that we have secret powerful weapon called the Crucible that may give a form of victory then get up there and not like the choices or the sacrifices needed for a form of victory and then decide instead to sacrifice the whole galaxy instead.

I have a question, didn't a conversation with Garrus result in Garrus saying something along the lines that as a leader you have to make tough decisions in wars. Like letting 10 billion over there die so 20 billion or here can live? How in any universe is letting all 30 billion of the people die a better choice as a leader? And paragon or renegade, are you not making that decision throughout the whole game? Did you not wipe a group of batarians out so you can postpone the reapers from killing everybody? Do you wish you could of refused then and ended the game with ME2?

(Note: My first post-EC playthroug I accidentally ended up Refusing by picking the bottom, typically renegade, option. So its probably more renegade than paragon.)

[wantedman dan]

Congratulations, sir.

[Galbrant]

Jenonax wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

Jenonax, you don't happen to have a femshep version of that banner? O_o

Unfortunately not my friend.  The chap in my sig made it for me.  PM him I'm sure he'd oblige 

Will do. 

[Galbrant]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

Jenonax, you don't happen to have a femshep version of that banner? O_o

I made the banner. I can try and do a femshep one if you want.

Sure and thank you. 

[zambot]

Xilizhra wrote...

zambot wrote...

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

You know what my principles are? "No one gets left behind." "Save all the lives you can." "Personal isn't the same as important." "Everyone deserves a chance at life." Have different principles if you wish, but don't claim that mine, as a Paragon, are compromised by not picking Refusal.

Those are also valid principles for a paragon Shepard.  I am in no way saying only one ending is valid.  All 4 are valid for different Shepards, including different paragon Shepards.  It's all in how you look at it.  "I will not compromise with the enemy" is a perfectly valid thing for a paragon Shep to say as well as "I will shoulder the burden of being an immortal guardian to save the galaxy" or "I will reluctantly sacrifice my allies and possibly myself to save everyone from the reapers" or "I will sacrifice myself to enlighten all life in the galaxy to achieve peace, even if some people don't want to be enlightened."

[D24O]

In concept, I really like it, but practically, I don't think my Shepard would choose it. But to each their own.

[zambot]

Galbrant wrote...

zambot wrote...

I don't think refuse is a massive FU. I do agree that it is a valid choice in keeping with the ideals of a paragon Shepard. You go down fighting, never compromise your principles, and thanks to your efforts during the 3 games, the next cycle is victorious. Tragic that everyone dies, but heroic since their sacrifice was not made in vain.

The fact that you can trigger the refusal ending by shooting the catalyst speaks volume on their intent. There is no logical reason add it unless you want to spite your fans. 

That's no how I saw it.  I saw shooting the catalyst as the ultimate rejection of what he stands for.  You consider him a liar, and you consider him the enemy.  Reject him and go down fighting. 

[Baa Baa]

I like all the ending choices, other than Synthesis, a lot.
Destroy: Very fulfilling. Feels like a victory.
Control: Dark, you become Dr. Manhattan.
Refuse: Defy your enemy and stick to your morals. "Never Compromise, even in the face of Armageddon"- Rorschach
Refuse is the best ending imo, but it should have been possible for you to witness your friends die in a glorious battle, and go down with them. Then instead of stargazer, it should have been a new character narrating (like the Shepard of this cycle) as all the fleets of the next cycle are preparing to launch the attack on the reapers while they are sleeping in dark space. That would have been amazing imo.

[Dharvy]

Also another look, say your were able to defeat the Reapers without the Crucible in the Refuse ending, with the Reapers superior powers and the fact that you only seem to manage to kill about 3 throughout all your time fighting them and loosing mass amounts of lives in the process that even if you won it would be slim victory and would result in the most lives lost out of all the 4 choices?