236 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My goal has been to stop the cycle by any means necessary. Nothing else. There's some question about the best way to do that, certainly, but I won't let one more person than necessary die to the Reapers before making my decision.

Haha, you couldn't sound any more renegade right now.

I said necessary, not expedient. That's the difference between Paragon and Renegade.

[IllStarredSon]

 
I would have liked the refuse ending if Shepard had actually gone down fighting, or won. Instead, he/she just stands there and gives up.  Also, by refusing, Shepard has just killed everybody because he/she couldn't let go of their pride. While I agree that this decision is most in line with what Shepard would have done (atleast my Shepard), there is no point to it since everyone is killed. Sure, the next cycle may survive because of Shepard, but I really don't care about that. It is completely unsatisfying to work so hard in 3 games, then when we get a choice that is most like Shepard, everyone dies because of it. 

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It's deliberately killing, whether you enjoy it or not. 

I don't believe I killed the geth, though...
The Geth and EDI are still alive in my playthrough...

Your belief =/= what actually happened.

[Bill Casey]

That goes for you too...
But either way, it sure as hell makes it not deliberate...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:40 .

[Pitznik]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

]You wanna know the difference?
Sacrifice-Someone gave up their life to further continue something.
Genocide-The killing of an entire race/species, it's especially evil when they agreed to fight with you and stood by your side.

Please, do not try to justify it. Sacrifice=/=Genocide.

You're talking about self sacrifice. The word sacrifice has more meanings: a[/i] : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else - that, Merriam-Webster online. Destruction of Geth for the sake of survival of the rest of the galxy's advanced life. There.

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Is killing the Geth deliberate? No, it's collateral damage. Is it systematic? No, it's not, they are not targeted as Geth, they just happen to share the quality of being synthetic with the Reapers. If a military ship goes down and on its board there are 3 last members of nearly extinct tribe, it is not genocide either - the goal was to destroy a ship, those 3 guys died by pure chance. But if someone would targeted that ship because they were those 3 guys on board and he for some reason wants this tribe gone, then it is genocide.

[Ryzaki]

Honestly I love Control, Destroy and Refuse. They all have their beauty. They all have positives and negatives.

Even if Refuse is just a BW sized FU ending.

[PoisonMushroom]

IllStarredSon wrote...

 
I would have liked the refuse ending if Shepard had actually gone down fighting, or won. Instead, he/she just stands there and gives up.  Also, by refusing, Shepard has just killed everybody because he/she couldn't let go of their pride. While I agree that this decision is most in line with what Shepard would have done (atleast my Shepard), there is no point to it since everyone is killed. Sure, the next cycle may survive because of Shepard, but I really don't care about that. It is completely unsatisfying to work so hard in 3 games, then when we get a choice that is most like Shepard, everyone dies because of it. 

Maybe, but I think that's just a difference of opinions. I felt far worse about my hard work with the original endings, because I felt like I wasn't really Shepard in those final moments. I always thought there would be an ending where this cycles fails but the next wins, I just didn't realise it would be my favourite.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

That goes for you too...
But either way, it sure as hell makes it not deliberate...

Yes it is, once again I will post it for you.

Deliberately- [/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects
Enough said.

[Bill Casey]

I love Destroy and Refuse...
Control is completely serviceable for a high renegade character. It makes Paragon Shepard look like a hypocrite, though...
They really didn't write the dialogue of the rest of the series to match up with the endings...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:46 .

[Salfin]

I wouldn't say I loved it, but I thouhgt it was a great option. I would have never expected to win against the reapers, even though I'm sitting at 7100 WA right now.

Too much MP....

[Dharvy]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It's not sacrifice, it's genocide. Your deliberately and systematically killing the Geth, and control is wrong because it completely contradicts ME3.

No I am not...
I am not deliberately killing the geth. I am deliberately killing the Reapers...

Deliberately-Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects

Yeah, you are.

If you refused with a thought that you could defeat the reapers conventionally without using the crucible even though you were told and everything pointed to it being impossible then refuse is an option, though I got to it by choosing renegade options. You can say "I refused because I thought we could win without it."

But if you honestly see that refusing will cost the galaxy the war and you still refuse then you are deliberately (done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects) killing the whole galaxy by way of genocide by way of letting the Reapers win by your decision. 

And even in the beginning Shepard tells the Alliance council that its about survival.

[Applepie_Svk]

I am refusing to play role in their artistic vision ... so I switched off the game after TIM confrontation

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:52 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Pitznik wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

]You wanna know the difference?
Sacrifice-Someone gave up their life to further continue something.
Genocide-The killing of an entire race/species, it's especially evil when they agreed to fight with you and stood by your side.

Please, do not try to justify it. Sacrifice=/=Genocide.

You're talking about self sacrifice. The word sacrifice has more meanings: a[/i] : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else - that, Merriam-Webster online. Destruction of Geth for the sake of survival of the rest of the galxy's advanced life. There.

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Is killing the Geth deliberate? No, it's collateral damage. Is it systematic? No, it's not, they are not targeted as Geth, they just happen to share the quality of being synthetic with the Reapers. If a military ship goes down and on its board there are 3 last members of nearly extinct tribe, it is not genocide either - the goal was to destroy a ship, those 3 guys died by pure chance. But if someone would targeted that ship because they were those 3 guys on board and he for some reason wants this tribe gone, then it is genocide.

It's not a sacrifice. You said it's a sacrifice because "destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else" So I were to kill 20 people to steal their stuff, that makes it a sacrifice because is "the destruction of something for the sake of something else" so see how the word "sacrifice" doesn't justify anything.

now

Deliberately- "[/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects" Yup, you knew with full consciousness the nature and effects of what you were doing when shooting the red tube.

Systematically-arranged in or comprising an ordered system- Yup, is was aranged because you knew it would kill specifically all synthetics.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Dharvy wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It's not sacrifice, it's genocide. Your deliberately and systematically killing the Geth, and control is wrong because it completely contradicts ME3.

No I am not...
I am not deliberately killing the geth. I am deliberately killing the Reapers...

Deliberately-Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects

Yeah, you are.

If you refused with a thought that you could defeat the reapers conventionally without using the crucible even though you were told and everything pointed to it being impossible then refuse is an option, though I got to it by choosing renegade options. You can say "I refused because I thought we could win without it."

But if you honestly see that refusing will cost the galaxy the war and you still refuse then you are deliberately (done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects) killing the whole galaxy by way of genocide by way of letting the Reapers win by your decision. 

And even in the beginning Shepard tells the Alliance council that its about survival.

Your forgetting systematically, it's not genocide, also the galaxy agreed to fight the Reapers knowing they would die by reapers.

[Bill Casey]

It is sacrifice if you don't want them to die...
In fact, Shepard calls sacrificing your men to complete a mission the hardest sacrifice to make...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:53 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

It is sacrifice if you don't want them to die...
In fact, Shepard calls sacrificing your men for achieving a goal the hardest sacrifice to make...

No, it doesn't change from genocide to sacrifice just because you don't want them to die, If you kill a whole species it's genocide whether you enjoy it or not.

[Pitznik]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It's not a sacrifice. You said it's a sacrifice because "destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else" So I were to kill 20 people to steal their stuff, that makes it a sacrifice because is "the destruction of something for the sake of something else" so see how the word "sacrifice" doesn't justify anything.

Yeah, you sacrifice other peoples' lives for the sake of your welfare. Sacrificing isn't necessarily a good action by definition. It's not about justification.

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Deliberately- "[/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects" Yup, you knew with full consciousness the nature and effects of what you were doing when shooting the red tube.

Systematically-arranged in or comprising an ordered system- Yup, is was aranged because you knew it would kill specifically all synthetics.

There was no system. Like I said before, you did not target geth, you targeted reapers. Collateral damage.

Genocide or not, it is still better than death of all advanced life in the galaxy.

[Bill Casey]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

That goes for you too...
But either way, it sure as hell makes it not deliberate...

Yes it is, once again I will post it for you.

Deliberately- [/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects
Enough said.

How is it deliberate if I don't think I killed them?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:06 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Pitznik wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It's not a sacrifice. You said it's a sacrifice because "destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else" So I were to kill 20 people to steal their stuff, that makes it a sacrifice because is "the destruction of something for the sake of something else" so see how the word "sacrifice" doesn't justify anything.

Yeah, you sacrifice other peoples' lives for the sake of your welfare. Sacrificing isn't necessarily a good action by definition. It's not about justification.

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Deliberately- "[/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects" Yup, you knew with full consciousness the nature and effects of what you were doing when shooting the red tube.

Systematically-arranged in or comprising an ordered system- Yup, is was aranged because you knew it would kill specifically all synthetics.

There was no system. Like I said before, you did not target geth, you targeted reapers. Collateral damage.

Genocide or not, it is still better than death of all advanced life in the galaxy.

You know what a selfish sacrifice might be defined as, Genocide.

Their was a system, killing synthetics, the same reason why it's not collateral damage.
Thanks for admiting it was Genocide.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

That goes for you too...
But either way, it sure as hell makes it not deliberate...

Yes it is, once again I will post it for you.

Deliberately- [/b]Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects
Enough said.

How is it deliberate if I don't think I killed them?

I'm not going to continue to discuss with you if your going to act obtuse.

[Bill Casey]

I'm not acting obtuse...
It's a legitimate point...

One that you fail to acknowledge...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:08 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

I'm not acting obtuse...
It's a legitimate point...

One that you fail to acknowledge...

It's still genocide, because you were told you were, you choose not to believe in it, and do it anyway, and by doing that set action, you killed the Geth and commited genocide in the process.

[Bill Casey]

It's not deliberate...

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

It's not deliberate...

Yes it is.

[Pitznik]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

You know what a selfish sacrifice might be defined as, Genocide.

Depends on the point of view. From Shepard's point of view it was a sacrifice, because he wanted to destroy the Reapers, but didn't want to destroy the Geth.

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Their was a system, killing synthetics, the same reason why it's not collateral damage.

That doesn't make it a system. "Synthetic" was the targeted quality only because "being a Reaper" quality couldn't be targeted. Geth shared that quality with Repears so their destruction was collateral damage.

And again, how is destruction of all advanced life better solution than destruction of the Geth, no matter how you will call it?