236 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

iamweaver wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

<snip>The refuse ending is the only ending that retains even a small fraction of Mass Effect themes throughout the series <snip>

The game is designed so that Shepherd already has to choose whether the Geth or Quarians get genocided without enough paragon/renegate points. In ME2, you had a number of (renegade) Krogan genocide options and comments. So it might not match your playstyle, but it's clearly built into ME.

In fact, if you already chose the Quarians over the Geth, the Destroy option is a complete no-brainer.  Your mission was to stop the Reapers. The galactic civilizations signed on knowing that they were likely to be sacrificed for that. I can't see how deciding that the mission must fail because it will hurt someone is a the only right choice.

I was commenting on the endings as presented, not the game itself. I have plenty of nitpicks for the mass effect series as a whole, but that didn't seem to be the focus of the thread.

[nilcox]

I think the refuse ending is the best because, its actually an "ending" Its a bleak bland ending but its still a conclusive END to the story.

Destroy leaves you wondering if there was a reunion with your crew, LI, etc.

Control leaves you thinking if it really solved the problem at all or if shepard starts reaping aswell after gaining the knowledge of the reapers.

Synthesis just felt iffy. It was the 'happiest' ending of them all but still lacked that small bit of gratification.

In the refuse ending everyone dies, You warn the next cycle about the reapers, and they prepare accordingly and beats the reapers in a pure military fight. The last part is head-cannon due to the fact that its not stated if the next cycle use the crucible or not.

Still I feel like the refuse ending wraps the story up in that bittersweet way, the other endings just leave way to much room for my imagination and I dont like to imagine endings to a story im being told.

[Fuzzfro]

Refusal is good, although I did like it as an ending I couldn't accept letting everyone I know and love die when I could chose other options which would save them.

[Nashiktal]

lillitheris wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The refuse ending is the only ending that retains even a small fraction of Mass Effect themes throughout the series, and while I won't say I approve of it, I will say that if I ever do play Mass Effect 3 single player again... That is the only one I can bring myself to choose.

I suppose, if you enjoy killing everybody.

By the time I finised processing all the endings, I find myself apathetic at best to the Mass Effect universe. I don't feel like I am killing everybody, as the illusion of the narrative has already been dispelled.

The themes of Mass Effect as has been fostered through two and a half games has been thus. Teamwork can rise above difficulty. You can fight impossible odds if you don't accept the inevitable. Individuality is better than homogenity. (and introduced in the second game.) Organics and Synthetics can work together and and use the previous two themes to achieve great things.

The endings all changed that and violated the themes of the universe. The changes were so severe, sudden, and final that I was no longer watching shepard and his adventures, but holding a video game controller in my hand and choosing incredibly bad narrative options.

As such if I ever do play Mass Effect single player again, the only thing I could possibly choose is what holds even a modicum of the original themes.

[iamweaver]

Nashiktal wrote...

<snip>
The themes of Mass Effect as has been fostered through two and a half games has been thus. Teamwork can rise above difficulty. You can fight impossible odds if you don't accept the inevitable. Individuality is better than homogenity. (and introduced in the second game.) Organics and Synthetics can work together and and use the previous two themes to achieve great things.
</ snip>

You forgot one other theme:  Victory almost always comes with a high cost.  ME never had any "feel-good" endings, and we occasionally saw the unintended consequences of even the best of intentions.

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...

So what should the ending look like, Ryzaki?

There's no doubt that both the "Destroy" and "Control" options belong on the plate. Are you saying there should have been another option, or that the ending scenes should be different? Or that the flavor of the end should be similar to that of ME1, with you getting the chance to do some kind of firefight that eliminates the reapers once and for all, without all the moralizing? My problem there is that moralizing has been a major part of the game since ME1.

Preferably destroy without the side effect of killing EDI and the Geth.

Actually it wasn't. Even in ME1 it turns out in saving the DA you save more lives than focusing on Soveriegn  *got poor Sovie confused with Harby . With no cost to the victory save some alliance ships. (not a considerable amount). ME2? You can save everyone. So...yeah what victory with a high cost? 

There was costs of course. ME1 had the Virmire Casualty and those alliance ships (or the destiny ascension depending on choice), ME2 had....no one.  ME3 had Mordin, Legion at the very least (it was either Mordin or Eve that died or both depending on playthrough). ME3 had it's equivelent to the VC. So...yeah not seeing at all this victory at a high cost that was supposedly in ME1 and ME2.

memorysquid wrote...
How does turning anything into Fallout in space not come out okay? 

Synthesis stops Reaping, it doesn't validate it.  It is proof it was a bad idea, unnecessary.

Going from ME universe to Fallout level where everything's crap, most people are dead, there's stone age level of tech and people are going to fall into martial law against rag tag groups of thugs since the gov'ts annilated isn't coming out okay. It's coming out by the shreds of their teeth. They go from the jewel of the galaxy to a mere pebble. A severe downgrade. Sure they're not dead but saying it's okay to me seems...iffy. Especially since most of them are dead save the few survivors and those are due for a nice crapsack world.

Yes it does. It proves that the Reapers goals were achievable. All they had to do was wait and keep reaping in the meantime.

Pacifien wrote...
So you didn't like the endings because they were endings with brutal consequences?

I realize that some people wanted Mass Effect to not end on a down note, that playing a game that basically keeps kicking them in the gut and leaves them feeling kicked in the gut is simply not their cup of tea. In fact, I'd say what the developers did with their ending only appeals to a very small niche of people, which is why I sort of respect them for doing it. I mean, you can argue all you want that they ruined several years of your life by pulling that stunt, but I personally respect it. This is because I belong to that very small niche of people. I like a  story about war where the victors look at each other and say "how come it feels like we didn't win?"

Nope they felt like consequences thrown in just to be consequences.

Good for you. No sarcasm. Feel the same way about Mockingjay. If they told me pre release though I wouldn't have wasted my time or money on a game that has a theme I find non-entertaining and boring (not to mention preachy and irritating.) They didn't so yeah I'm gonna argue and **** about them wasting my time and money.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[HooblaDGN]

iamweaver wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

<snip>
The themes of Mass Effect as has been fostered through two and a half games has been thus. Teamwork can rise above difficulty. You can fight impossible odds if you don't accept the inevitable. Individuality is better than homogenity. (and introduced in the second game.) Organics and Synthetics can work together and and use the previous two themes to achieve great things.
</ snip>

You forgot one other theme:  Victory almost always comes with a high cost.  ME never had any "feel-good" endings, and we occasionally saw the unintended consequences of even the best of intentions.

The cost was paid in billions of lives during the entire trilogy. To attach an extra cost at the end when you've lost all of hammer just getting there is arbitrary.

[wantedman dan]

iamweaver wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

<snip>
The themes of Mass Effect as has been fostered through two and a half games has been thus. Teamwork can rise above difficulty. You can fight impossible odds if you don't accept the inevitable. Individuality is better than homogenity. (and introduced in the second game.) Organics and Synthetics can work together and and use the previous two themes to achieve great things.
</ snip>

You forgot one other theme:  Victory almost always comes with a high cost.  ME never had any "feel-good" endings, and we occasionally saw the unintended consequences of even the best of intentions.

Odd, my Mass Effect 2 ending was rather "feel-good." But I guess that was too videogame-y.

[Fauxnormal]

You know what?

Go ahead and love it. Doesn't mean it's any less of a cop-out.

[BrysonC]

There's no ending that makes me feel satisfied. Synthesis is just too "out there", so to speak, too space magicky. Control puts too much power in Shepard's hands and doesn't allow him to reunite with his friends/loved one. Destroy ends the Reaper threat and gives Shepard the possibility of surviving, but also kills synthetics that you spent 2 games learning to cooperate with.

And in the refusal ending, well, everyone in the cycle dies. Including your friends and loved one. After Tali's tearful goodbye I can't bring myself to let her get harvested/killed.

None of them leave me feeling satisfied. :/

[Bhav88]

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

[Pitznik]

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

[survivor_686]

In response to OP: good for you

Personally I also play a Paragon Shepard and I felt not activating the crucible would be a betrayal to everyone whom sacrificed their lives, time and soul in order to plan, build, defend and ultimately deploy the Crucible.

The entire galaxy Held The Line in order to activate the crucible. Refusing to activate renders all their sacrifices moot.

That being said I chose the Destroy option.

[tomcplotts]

refusal is one of the best game endings of all time. if they had done that the first time, ME3 would have instant cult status.

best to trigger it with a bullet to face. better than wasting time through dialogue.

i'm probably going to regret typing that, since EA's marketing trash will probably cut out the first sentence and plaster it on every ad for the rest of the summer.

[Galbrant]

Pitznik wrote...

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

Agreed.

[SMichelle]

Galbrant wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

Agreed.

Rebuttal: (whether you like it or not) with Refusal rocks fall and everyone dies! 

[Galbrant]

SMichelle wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

Agreed.

Rebuttal: (whether you like it or not) with Refusal rocks fall and everyone dies! 

Yep...  this is how I think they felt when they wrote that ending.

 

[Bhav88]

SMichelle wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

Agreed.

Rebuttal: (whether you like it or not) with Refusal rocks fall and everyone dies! 

Indeed they do.  The fact that the ending results in complete and utter failure is another issue;  what I'm saying is that the options as presented don't look like they will actually DO anything other than kill you.  I feel it's more likely you'd die while crawling around in search of (what you perceive to be) the REAL way to turn it on.

[Sejborg]

No compromise? Not even in the face of Armageddon?

[frostajulie]

Jenonax wrote...

Join us Brother! The Cult of the Refusers will grow ever stronger!

Seriously though I love it because it gave me back Shepard. I would have loved it even more if it had let to conventional victory rather than "Derp, everyones dead. Sucks to be you!"

Yes This is how I feel as well

[DEATHSCOPE]

@ OP

That's cool man.

[Kamfrenchie]

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That and victory comes at a terrible cost (either the loss of Shep's humanity, the validation of the Reapers reaping, or through Shep sacrificing his own allies to destroy the Reapers). Bleh.

So you didn't like the endings because they were endings with brutal consequences?

I realize that some people wanted Mass Effect to not end on a down note, that playing a game that basically keeps kicking them in the gut and leaves them feeling kicked in the gut is simply not their cup of tea. In fact, I'd say what the developers did with their ending only appeals to a very small niche of people, which is why I sort of respect them for doing it. I mean, you can argue all you want that they ruined several years of your life by pulling that stunt, but I personally respect it. This is because I belong to that very small niche of people. I like a story about war where the victors look at each other and say "how come it feels like we didn't win?"

The prblem is tha the ed and the sacrific don't fit and are poorly written, and the sacrifice feels tacked on after for the sake of it.
Say, it'd b fine if shpard had to choose a squad/fleet for an important mission that will get most of them butchered because the ennemy is entrenched etc.

Here it's nonsensical like, hey, here is your choice :
-You can kill all the ennemies but it will kill part of your army for no good reason
-you can die and become the general of the ennemy army
-you can merge everyone with your ennemy.

I meant wtf. DOES NOT FIT nor make sense

[Jymm]

Pitznik wrote...

Bhav88 wrote...

I feel like refuse is the logical choice simply because of what the other options have to LOOK LIKE to Shepard.

Option A: Grab what is obviously a live electrical wire. I swear, that'll let you control the Reapers.
Option B: Go... jump into that laser. Yeah. It'll... uh... absorb you and... anyway, that's how you activate it.
Option C: You can activate the crucible by setting off a large explosion three feet from your face. It apparently also destroys the superweapon you just spent all game building.

Were I offered these choices, my immediate thought would be that the thing is just trying to get me to kill myself. I feel like the logical choice for almost ANY Shepard would be to ignore the brat and keep looking around for the control panel that ACTUALLY activates the crucible. (And for the sake of art, of course, bleed out before finding it)

Whether or not there IS one, it really looks like he's just trying to talk you into committing suicide rather than search for the actual red button.

Best arguement for the refusal ending so far.

Absolutely.  I think the sheer preposterousness of the scenario is also one reason why Indoc Theory was so alluring... but that's another thread.  Like all the most brilliant scientists in the entire galaxy would spend months building this giant superweapon and a) not create a logical way to activate it and not tell Shep how to do it.  Its just ludicrous.

[2Shepards]

Nashiktal wrote...


By the time I finised processing all the endings, I find myself apathetic at best to the Mass Effect universe. I don't feel like I am killing everybody, as the illusion of the narrative has already been dispelled.

this, coupled with the quote in my sig, and boom you have my feeling, and why I refused.............to finish my game.

[N-Seven]

2Shepards wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...


By the time I finised processing all the endings, I find myself apathetic at best to the Mass Effect universe. I don't feel like I am killing everybody, as the illusion of the narrative has already been dispelled.

this, coupled with the quote in my sig, and boom you have my feeling, and why I refused.............to finish my game.

I respect that answer more than most others I've heard regarding that choice.  Top two, actually.

Modifié par N-Seven, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .