288 réponses à ce sujet

[Zuka999]

wantedman dan wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

That or its entirely logical that people who are paid to write know more about writing than people who do not get paid to write. Get over it, you armchair philosopher you.

LOL So, it's entirely logical to assume that because I get paid, I automatically know more than you.

I see. So if I got paid to post on the forums, does that mean I know more than everyone else here?

Yeah go ahead and keep pretending that the guy who argues about nothing on BioWare Social Network knows more about writing than the guys who repeatedly get accolades writing for BioWare. Because that makes logical sense somehow. Its like people who argue about religion or science with absolute no science degrees and no positions in any theology whatsoever. Who are you going to trust, the people who are successful in the field or a nobody?

Call it a logical fallacy all you want, you're just hiding behind lame debate reasoning that has no actual implication in reality.

Now that is a more logical argument. The appeals you made there are much better. But simply saying "LAWL THEIR PROFESHUNALS" makes no logical sense.

I can certainly give you plenty of real arguments, I just have no desire to. You've done nothing but attack me since I entered this thread, so any desire I could have had has since been drained. Arguing with people who do nothing but attack supposed "logical fallacies" is never interesting because 99% of them have just read basic philosophy on some Wikipedia pages and use them to do nothing bus outrightly dismiss anything said by another person. I learned a long time ago its better to just make your statement and move on, unfortunately I'm bored right now and have nothing else to do.

[Sarevok Synder]

wantedman dan wrote...


Now that is a more logical argument. The appeals you made there are much better. But simply saying "LAWL THEIR PROFESHUNALS" makes no logical sense.

It still implies that just because someone is paid to do something, means they must be good at it. Well, there are plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs, writing or otherwise. You only need look at the majority of the writing that comes out of the movie industry  to confirm this.

[Zuka999]

For what its worth I absolutely hate the majority of plot to Mass Effect 3, such as the deus ex machina Crucible superweapon "off-switch" for the Reapers or the fact that Shepard just steps aside like a **** and gets all of the endings handed to him. But the story is carried by its characters, as all BioWare games have been, they just got to the point with this game where they believed the plot elements were the selling point and they gambled incorrectly.

[wantedman dan]

Zuka999 wrote...

I can certainly give you plenty of real arguments, I just have no desire to. You've done nothing but attack me since I entered this thread, so any desire I could have had has since been drained. Arguing with people who do nothing but attack supposed "logical fallacies" is never interesting because 99% of them have just read basic philosophy on some Wikipedia pages and use them to do nothing bus outrightly dismiss anything said by another person. I learned a long time ago its better to just make your statement and move on, unfortunately I'm bored right now and have nothing else to do.

That's fine. Your generalizations and fake statistics are doing well enough to prove that such an argument wouldn't be too grand in the first place.

[D24O]

Zuka999 wrote...
 the story is carried by its characters, as all BioWare games have been, they just got to the point with this game where they believed the plot elements were the selling point and they gambled incorrectly.

[Tritium315]

Eain wrote...

In three we had the lore pushing us from behind and the looming conflict pull us forward, but most of the details from Mass Effect 3 were developed post-Mass Effect 2. Like 99.5% of them. We hashed it and and figured it out.

And that’s really the only way you can do it because, going back to the concept of all the choices the player could have made in Mass Effect 1 and 2, until we can see what all of those possibilities are, there’s really no way plan out the details of the story for Mass Effect 3.

I like how he says that the only way you can do a story like this is by not planning ahead.

I think a few professional authors would beg to differ.

How to handle a branching storyline, Mac Walters style: If the player killed/destroyed it, don't worry; there's always a backup.

[Zuka999]

wantedman dan wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I can certainly give you plenty of real arguments, I just have no desire to. You've done nothing but attack me since I entered this thread, so any desire I could have had has since been drained. Arguing with people who do nothing but attack supposed "logical fallacies" is never interesting because 99% of them have just read basic philosophy on some Wikipedia pages and use them to do nothing bus outrightly dismiss anything said by another person. I learned a long time ago its better to just make your statement and move on, unfortunately I'm bored right now and have nothing else to do.

That's fine. Your generalizations and fake statistics are doing well enough to prove that such an argument wouldn't be too grand in the first place.

"Generalizations" and "fake statistics" based on my experience. Get over it, we're not running for office here.

[Jamie9]

Look, the story should have been planned from the beginning. Character arcs should have been planned from the beginning.

You can still use fan feedback on gameplay, but the story should remain as "pure" as possible. Sure, have the characters that people like feature a bit more, and the characters people don't like feature a bit less, but generally keep the initial idea.

You can always tell when something was planned from the beginning, because everything gels. The Mass Effect games did not gel with each other.

[77boy84]

Does it really matter if someone is a seasoned author or not when posting in these threads? I think it's a pretty safe bet that whatever Mac Walters did to prepare for ME3 wasn't enough because the whole game is a mess.

You don't need to be a professional writer to see that, good gravy.

To a degree, having credentials is important when voicing a criticism, but it's not mandatory, especially with something like ME3, where its problems are so big and obvious that anyone can see them.

[wantedman dan]

Zuka999 wrote...

"Generalizations" and "fake statistics" based on my experience. Get over it, we're not running for office here.

That you generalized and thus faked statistics about.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Tritium315 wrote...

Eain wrote...

In three we had the lore pushing us from behind and the looming conflict pull us forward, but most of the details from Mass Effect 3 were developed post-Mass Effect 2. Like 99.5% of them. We hashed it and and figured it out.

And that’s really the only way you can do it because, going back to the concept of all the choices the player could have made in Mass Effect 1 and 2, until we can see what all of those possibilities are, there’s really no way plan out the details of the story for Mass Effect 3.

I like how he says that the only way you can do a story like this is by not planning ahead.

I think a few professional authors would beg to differ.

How to handle a branching storyline, Mac Walters style: If the player killed/destroyed it, don't worry; there's always a backup.

That's what I hated about the Collector Base choice, the Rachni situation, and the one with the Geth. For the latter especially, it's like the Paragon choice turns out to be just as bad as the Destroy one. At least it was surprising. <_<

[Tekkez]

In three we had the lore pushing us from behind

At first I lol'd

then I cried

Mac doesn't know what lore is.

[Zuka999]

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

[Jamie9]

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

Incorrect. George R. R. Martin has had his story fleshed out from the beginning. And he refuses to change it based on feedback. He wants to keep it to his original vision. He did alter the number of books (from 3, to 6, to 7).

Also, if you criticize a writer's ability to write a story, you ARE criticising their ability to do their job. There is no distinction.

[D24O]

Zuka999 wrote...

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

Maybe the moral of this story is don't switch out writers for a trilogy.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Whatever the plot would be, one guy versus an army of invincible space monsters final showdown was bound to be somewhat stupid, no matter if planned from the start, or not.

This is true.

The Reapers didn't even need to be invincible either. It's repeatedly stated they used a sneak attack to utterly cripple their enemies.

You don't need superpowers untop of that.

If you're a Space Cthulhu you must have superpowers.

[77boy84]

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

I hate the obligation arguement so much. Are they TECHNICALLY obligated to do a decent job and actually give a rat's ass about the game? No, they're not, but they should FEEL an obligation to it if they want people to shell out money for their work.

I can call in question how they do their job, because I paid sixty dollars, and ME3 sure as heck wasn't worth that. If you pay someone to do something, and they do a poor job, you can call them out on it and criticise how they do their job. It's okay to do that because they are being PAID to do it.

If someone does work for a job, and the work is substandard, they will be criticised for it. There is absoloutely no reason why anyone should be immune to criticism when they're working professionally.

[Zuka999]

Jamie9 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

Incorrect. George R. R. Martin has had his story fleshed out from the beginning. And he refuses to change it based on feedback. He wants to keep it to his original vision. He did alter the number of books (from 3, to 6, to 7).

Also, if you criticize a writer's ability to write a story, you ARE criticising their ability to do their job. There is no distinction.

No, if you read his blog he says all the time that he has an idea of what he wants to do and an idea of the endpoint but that he doesn't write anything down. At all. And that he has no idea for sure how long it will be because he constantly wants to do more stuff with it. Try again.

And yes, there is a distinction between the work you put out being criticized and your daily life being criticized. Anyone who has been in the position where they personally are being attacked as the BioWare writers are CONSTANTLY will tell you how stressful and heartbreaking it is to go from constructive feedback to constant bashing to trasncend their work and goes directly for them personally.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Jamie9 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

Incorrect. George R. R. Martin has had his story fleshed out from the beginning. And he refuses to change it based on feedback. He wants to keep it to his original vision. He did alter the number of books (from 3, to 6, to 7).

Also, if you criticize a writer's ability to write a story, you ARE criticising their ability to do their job. There is no distinction.

Critiquing a body of work or the effectiveness of a particular style isn't necessarily criticizing the ability to do their job, but I nonetheless agree with your sentiment otherwise since some have criticized them on that level.

[Zuka999]

77boy84 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

I hate the obligation arguement so much. Are they TECHNICALLY obligated to do a decent job and actually give a rat's ass about the game? No, they're not, but they should FEEL an obligation to it if they want people to shell out money for their work.

I can call in question how they do their job, because I paid sixty dollars, and ME3 sure as heck wasn't worth that. If you pay someone to do something, and they do a poor job, you can call them out on it and criticise how they do their job. It's okay to do that because they are being PAID to do it.

If someone does work for a job, and the work is substandard, they will be criticised for it. There is absoloutely no reason why anyone should be immune to criticism when they're working professionally.

You have the right not to pay them anymore, not the right to decide the company's internal politics. They're still not obligated to you at all.

[Jamie9]

Zuka999 wrote...

No, if you read his blog he says all the time that he has an idea of what he wants to do and an idea of the endpoint but that he doesn't write anything down. At all. And that he has no idea for sure how long it will be because he constantly wants to do more stuff with it. Try again.

And yes, there is a distinction between the work you put out being criticized and your daily life being criticized. Anyone who has been in the position where they personally are being attacked as the BioWare writers are CONSTANTLY will tell you how stressful and heartbreaking it is to go from constructive feedback to constant bashing to trasncend their work and goes directly for them personally.

I could find it on the web somewhere but I know for a fact I read a quote from Martin describing he had the end planned out. I think it was from 2003 or something though, so it's not too recent.

Well, yes. That wasn't what I inferred from your original post. Bashing is unhelpful and cruel, regardless of how it is conveyed.

Constructive feedback actually helps future products, and is generally easier for the writer to digest. I don't disagree with you there.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Jamie9 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

No, if you read his blog he says all the time that he has an idea of what he wants to do and an idea of the endpoint but that he doesn't write anything down. At all. And that he has no idea for sure how long it will be because he constantly wants to do more stuff with it. Try again.

And yes, there is a distinction between the work you put out being criticized and your daily life being criticized. Anyone who has been in the position where they personally are being attacked as the BioWare writers are CONSTANTLY will tell you how stressful and heartbreaking it is to go from constructive feedback to constant bashing to trasncend their work and goes directly for them personally.

I could find it on the web somewhere but I know for a fact I read a quote from Martin describing he had the end planned out. I think it was from 2003 or something though, so it's not too recent.

Well, yes. That wasn't what I inferred from your original post. Bashing is unhelpful and cruel, regardless of how it is conveyed.

Constructive feedback actually helps future products, and is generally easier for the writer to digest. I don't disagree with you there.

JK Rowling claimed to have done similar with her novels.

[77boy84]

Zuka999 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

I hate the obligation arguement so much. Are they TECHNICALLY obligated to do a decent job and actually give a rat's ass about the game? No, they're not, but they should FEEL an obligation to it if they want people to shell out money for their work.

I can call in question how they do their job, because I paid sixty dollars, and ME3 sure as heck wasn't worth that. If you pay someone to do something, and they do a poor job, you can call them out on it and criticise how they do their job. It's okay to do that because they are being PAID to do it.

If someone does work for a job, and the work is substandard, they will be criticised for it. There is absoloutely no reason why anyone should be immune to criticism when they're working professionally.

You have the right not to pay them anymore, not the right to decide the company's internal politics. They're still not obligated to you at all.

Yes, I have the right to not pay them, and I also have the right to criticise them if I don't agree with how they do something.

I suppose Bioware isn't obligated to anyone, but it really does bum me out that you think it's okay that they don't feel an obligation to do their best and work hard to deliver great products instead of mediocre to bad products like ME3 and DA2.

[RenegonSQ]

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[Urdnot Amenark]

77boy84 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

I mean, look, hate on the story all you want but when you start calling into question how people do their jobs you really cross the line. The BioWare writers have no obligations to any of you, its certainly not in their job description that they have to interact with the public in any way. How they go about writing the story is up to them, and it works differently for different writers. Unless you are actually involved in the writing process your opinion is invalid when it comes to criticizing their work ethics.

The issue with the writing for Mass Effect was more likely because they switched lead writers mid-way through the series than it was that they lacked some sort of comprehensive outline for the trilogy. A writer like George R.R. Martin uses absolutely no outlines and he pulls HUNDREDS of story threads together seamlessly - on the fly! And everyone absolutely loves it! A writer who has spent a lot of time coming up with ideas for a series knows what they want to do and when they want to do it.

Drew Karpyshyn likely had a vision of what the trilogy would be and that was lost when he left.

I hate the obligation arguement so much. Are they TECHNICALLY obligated to do a decent job and actually give a rat's ass about the game? No, they're not, but they should FEEL an obligation to it if they want people to shell out money for their work.

I can call in question how they do their job, because I paid sixty dollars, and ME3 sure as heck wasn't worth that. If you pay someone to do something, and they do a poor job, you can call them out on it and criticise how they do their job. It's okay to do that because they are being PAID to do it.

If someone does work for a job, and the work is substandard, they will be criticised for it. There is absoloutely no reason why anyone should be immune to criticism when they're working professionally.

You have the right not to pay them anymore, not the right to decide the company's internal politics. They're still not obligated to you at all.

Yes, I have the right to not pay them, and I also have the right to criticise them if I don't agree with how they do something.

I suppose Bioware isn't obligated to anyone, but it really does bum me out that you think it's okay that they don't feel an obligation to do their best and work hard to deliver great products instead of mediocre to bad products like ME3 and DA2.

I never thought DA2 was that terrible. Perhaps disappointing in several aspects, but not terrible to the point people keep making it out to be, and ME 3 was definitely exceptional most of the time. My problems with the game definitely do not exceed the positives.