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The crucible & the catalyst are terrible plotdevices & Synthesis is just nonsensical [Updated]
Débuté par
Xamufam
, juil. 08 2012 10:45
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#52
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 05:31
Xamufam
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The lead writer left thats why. The new lead writer hasn't really written much he started as a Technical artist in bioware before that he was a Mechanical engineernitefyre410 wrote...
They are not great plot devices but what is worst about them is the damn execution... my god. They are executed so poorly that its makes them even worst.
30hrs of gameplay to explain these things and you wait till the last 10 freaking minutes... hell is wrong with you Bioware?
If your going to have do an asspull and a DEM then you better cover your tacks damn well .
Modifié par Troxa, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:32 .
#53
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 05:37
nitefyre410
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Troxa wrote...
The lead writer left thats why. The new lead writer hasn't really written much he started as a Technical artist in bioware before that he was a Mechanical engineernitefyre410 wrote...
They are not great plot devices but what is worst about them is the damn execution... my god. They are executed so poorly that its makes them even worst.
30hrs of gameplay to explain these things and you wait till the last 10 freaking minutes... hell is wrong with you Bioware?
If your going to have do an asspull and a DEM then you better cover your tacks damn well .
that was a retoricle question
#55
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 12:35
Hendrik.III
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What I don't get about the crucible is that it's a weapon with a single purpose, that you actually fire only once... but with 3 options? Why would you want to do that? And even if you didn't plan that, but it was made possible due to the nature of the catalyst - that means you had no idea what you were building in the first place, since you did not understand what the catalyst was - and you cannot make a plan based on something that you do not comprehend... and then have it work perfectly as intended, with added options!
- How to get 3 options?
- Why is the catalyst needed? You don't know about a reaper attack until they're actually attacking, and the first thing they seize is the citadel... you could never use it!
- To inlcude the catalyst into your weapon, you MUST have understanding of what the catalyst is and can do. When you know that, you know the true nature of the reapers.
- It has been found and added to in every cycle - how can this be done effectively when they do not know what it's going to do?
The existence of the catalyst is not so much the problem, but the foreknowledge of it is. Someone must have known what the citadel was exactly...it just doesn't make sense.
- How to get 3 options?
- Why is the catalyst needed? You don't know about a reaper attack until they're actually attacking, and the first thing they seize is the citadel... you could never use it!
- To inlcude the catalyst into your weapon, you MUST have understanding of what the catalyst is and can do. When you know that, you know the true nature of the reapers.
- It has been found and added to in every cycle - how can this be done effectively when they do not know what it's going to do?
The existence of the catalyst is not so much the problem, but the foreknowledge of it is. Someone must have known what the citadel was exactly...it just doesn't make sense.
#56
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 02:37
Xamufam
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Even bioware can't answer those, so it's bad writing.Hendrik.III wrote...
What I don't get about the crucible is that it's a weapon with a single purpose, that you actually fire only once... but with 3 options? Why would you want to do that? And even if you didn't plan that, but it was made possible due to the nature of the catalyst - that means you had no idea what you were building in the first place, since you did not understand what the catalyst was - and you cannot make a plan based on something that you do not comprehend... and then have it work perfectly as intended, with added options!
- How to get 3 options?
- Why is the catalyst needed? You don't know about a reaper attack until they're actually attacking, and the first thing they seize is the citadel... you could never use it!
- To inlcude the catalyst into your weapon, you MUST have understanding of what the catalyst is and can do. When you know that, you know the true nature of the reapers.
- It has been found and added to in every cycle - how can this be done effectively when they do not know what it's going to do?
The existence of the catalyst is not so much the problem, but the foreknowledge of it is. Someone must have known what the citadel was exactly...it just doesn't make sense.
#57
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 03:03
egnit
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CSI_Spectre wrote...
Great post Troxa.
In ME3, I feel like you don't take Earth back. The catalyst GIVES it back to you.
Our Shepard unites the galaxy to fight a dangerous race of ancients known as the Reapers. I would have made it so that uniting the galaxy meant something. Therefore, the existence of the cruicible and catalyst would not be necessary. Have YOUR war assets matter. Have uniting the galaxy mean something!!!!
Even after the EC, it makes uniting the galaxy feel irrelevant cause you'll still get up to choices of 4 endings that everyone with a high EMS would have. War Assets don't do anything but help your war rating.
Also, I wouldn't have had Cerberus be an enemy you face. Instead, I would have liked to have seen you try to get Cerberus and Alliance to co-exist to fight off the reapers; which would be somewhat similar to what you did with the Geth and Quarians and the Krogan and Turians. Not exactly that, but I hope you get my point. You would help Cerberus and Alliance co-exist for this cause.
Your army would consist of Krogan, Geth, Quarians, Turians, Asari, Humans; it would have organizations like Aria's Blood Pact and Blue Suns, Spectres, Cerberus operatives, STG, Rachni, etc...
Basically you have all these different people united to fight a common foe that threatens everything. I think that would have worked much better for everyone than what we got.
I actually thought Alliance building was going to be a larger part of the game and that you would be forging all kinds of allainces between races that hate one another for various reasons. I had the following in mind:
Humans vs Batarians - Shepard forced to stand trial to try and get the support of the Batarians. Convince them of the threat of the Reapers and the necessity for cooperation. Or being forced to choose between humanity, which has had its fleets been utterly decimated, or the Batarian Hegemenoy (which would have to be spared the Reapers initial attack and be in a much stronger military position for this to work).
Krogan vs Salarians/Turians - Genophage needs to be cured. I never imagined it the way they did, with the Krogan needed on Palavan and the Salarians being the heel draggers. I imagined it as opposite. Since the Salarians aren't good in stand up fights, I imagined them wanting to cure the Genophage for the Krogan and the Turians resisting. If Mordin had died, no Genophage cure. Krogan will die, but go out fighting. If Garrus and/or Wrek are dead then there can be no peace between the Korgan and Turians. Have to choose between them. Turian's have fleets, Krogan are the tanks.
Quarians vs Geth - I saw this one pretty much go the way I imagined. No Tali and/or Legion again would mean no peace and you'd be forced to choose. Choose the Quarians and you gain that massive fleet, but the Geth turn back to the Reapers and become a persistant enemy for the rest of the game. Choose the Geth and the Quarians turn to the Reapers for survival, Reaper tech allowing them to finally live without their suits. With a terrible price of course. You know fight reaper Quarians among your enemies for the rest of the game.
Asari vs Rachni - The Rachni, in an expanded role, have grown quite a bit since the queen's release in ME 1. They ask for your help to fend off the Reapers trying to harvest their eggs, and the Asari have the only military in position to help. So it becomes a get them to work together or be forced to choose one or the other. As a sidenote, if you killed the Queen in ME 1 this should not be an option and you should never fight and huskified Rachni. Gives you a benefit for being a renegade, you've just denied the enemy a precious resource.
I never really knew where Cerberus would stand.
In the end I was way off on most!
#58
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 08:57
Xamufam
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egnit wrote...
Asari vs Rachni - The Rachni, in an expanded role, have grown quite a bit since the queen's release in ME 1. They ask for your help to fend off the Reapers trying to harvest their eggs, and the Asari have the only military in position to help. So it becomes a get them to work together or be forced to choose one or the other. As a sidenote, if you killed the Queen in ME 1 this should not be an option and you should never fight and huskified Rachni. Gives you a benefit for being a renegade, you've just denied the enemy a precious resource.
True
#59
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 09:02
zambot
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I do not agree with your analysis of synthesis. I agree that "it makes no sense at all." Because it makes no sense at all (ie it has absolutely no grounding in reality whatsoever), anything can follow. It's entirely possible everyone gets along with the reapers, and are not husks. In fact, that is what we are shown. How is that possible you ask? Because with magic, anything is possible.
#60
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 10:28
Kamfrenchie
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Also, if the crucible has never worked in bilions of years, why do we think we have any chance at making it work ?
Reminds me of WW1 black adder
http://youtu.be/a_xfKuDZd98?t=2m26s
How come the asari didn't do anyting with Vendetta ? Had they just talked to him, everythin could have gone much beter, but nah, they just sat on the beacon forever not doing anyhing with it...
Reminds me of WW1 black adder
http://youtu.be/a_xfKuDZd98?t=2m26s
How come the asari didn't do anyting with Vendetta ? Had they just talked to him, everythin could have gone much beter, but nah, they just sat on the beacon forever not doing anyhing with it...
#61
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 10:31
MetioricTest
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Kamfrenchie wrote...
Also, if the crucible has never worked in bilions of years, why do we think we have any chance at making it work ?
Because this Cycle has craazy advantages no other cycle ever had
#62
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 10:52
DistantUtopia
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Like rubber suits.MetioricTest wrote...
Kamfrenchie wrote...
Also, if the crucible has never worked in bilions of years, why do we think we have any chance at making it work ?
Because this Cycle has craazy advantages no other cycle ever had
#63
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 11:10
Geneaux486
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[quote]Bioware forced crucible in our faces instead of letting it come naturally in the story.[/quote]
For starters the Crucible isn't any more "forced" in our faces than anything else the writers of the story chose to write into the story. Secondly, it did come naturally into the story, it was discovered in a system the Reapers didn't visit in the previous cycle by a character who has been known since the first game to have a talent for finding things that nobody else could find. Furthermore, it started out as an idea that was slowly made into a reality through the game.
[quote]We have no idea how the crucible will work, How can we build it when we don't know how it works?[/quote]
They were able to build it to specifications knowing that it would be capable of generating massive amounts of energy and that it would broadcast that energy through the mass relays. They simply didn't know the effects. The atomic bomb was a bit of an unknown as well, yet scientists were still able to put that together.
[quote]Did anyone understand why bioware put the crucible in the game in the first place.[/quote]
Because a game-changer of some kind would be needed to make a victory against the entire reaper species feasible.
[quote]You don't make a sudden change in the plot at the ending.[/quote]
Which is probably why they didn't.
[quote]Just his pesence throws Mass effect 1 in the garbage, all the things sovereign was meningless[/quote]
No it doesn't.
[quote]Why don't the catalyst control the citadel it's the most important thing to begin the cycle.[/quote]
The Catalyst identifies itself as the collective conciousness of the Reapers and mentions that they left the humans alone "The last time we were hear." meaning that the Catalyst comes and goes as the Reapers do. The Citadel may be its home, but one can leave their home.
[quote]When we asked who created it we the only thing we got was, we don't have time to discuss it.[/quote]
You're confusing what the Catalyst said about its own creation with what it said about the Crucible's creation. It gave a far more detailed explanation of its own creation than "we don't have time to discuss it."
[quote]He says that the crucible altered him how?[/quote]
It presented new possibilities that the Catalyst was unable to accomplish or concieve of on his own.
[quote]How did the organics know of
him to reprogram him , The catalyst says that shep is the first organic
that has come so far to his home.[/quote]
First organic ever to stand in that part of the Citadel. Doesn't mean anything more than that no organic had ever stood on that part of the Citadel.
[quote]We alredy disproved him in the war organics vs syntetics. We made peace with the geth[/quote]
Geth were anomalous. The Catalyst states that synthetics have tried to destroy organics in every other observable instance in the history of the cycles.
[quote]He also that the crucible is just a powersource, did he alredy have the capabilities then.[/quote]
He says that he didn't have them.
[quote]Who would design the crucible to do 3 specific things?[/quote]
It's been tweaked by countless cycles, not unrealistic that it would have more than just one function.
[quote]Why didn't the reapers take the citadel from the beginning & shut down the realays as they did with the protheans[/quote]
Why would they need to? They were winning on every front anyway.
[quote] it also takes
away free will & conflict (conflict is part of life) & makes you
a husk.[/quote]
It did none of those things. It granted understanding and enlightenment, and strengthened organic DNA. No free will is stated or implied to be taken, and we clearly see that nobody becomes a husk.
[quote]In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"[/quote]
"Organics do not know each other's minds, Geth do." Post-synthesis, organics have a deep understanding of one another. That would eliminate quite a bit of hatred and conflict.
[quote]Reapers cooperating with organics would never happen voluntarily[/quote]
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
For starters the Crucible isn't any more "forced" in our faces than anything else the writers of the story chose to write into the story. Secondly, it did come naturally into the story, it was discovered in a system the Reapers didn't visit in the previous cycle by a character who has been known since the first game to have a talent for finding things that nobody else could find. Furthermore, it started out as an idea that was slowly made into a reality through the game.
[quote]We have no idea how the crucible will work, How can we build it when we don't know how it works?[/quote]
They were able to build it to specifications knowing that it would be capable of generating massive amounts of energy and that it would broadcast that energy through the mass relays. They simply didn't know the effects. The atomic bomb was a bit of an unknown as well, yet scientists were still able to put that together.
[quote]Did anyone understand why bioware put the crucible in the game in the first place.[/quote]
Because a game-changer of some kind would be needed to make a victory against the entire reaper species feasible.
[quote]You don't make a sudden change in the plot at the ending.[/quote]
Which is probably why they didn't.
[quote]Just his pesence throws Mass effect 1 in the garbage, all the things sovereign was meningless[/quote]
No it doesn't.
[quote]Why don't the catalyst control the citadel it's the most important thing to begin the cycle.[/quote]
The Catalyst identifies itself as the collective conciousness of the Reapers and mentions that they left the humans alone "The last time we were hear." meaning that the Catalyst comes and goes as the Reapers do. The Citadel may be its home, but one can leave their home.
[quote]When we asked who created it we the only thing we got was, we don't have time to discuss it.[/quote]
You're confusing what the Catalyst said about its own creation with what it said about the Crucible's creation. It gave a far more detailed explanation of its own creation than "we don't have time to discuss it."
[quote]He says that the crucible altered him how?[/quote]
It presented new possibilities that the Catalyst was unable to accomplish or concieve of on his own.
[quote]How did the organics know of
him to reprogram him , The catalyst says that shep is the first organic
that has come so far to his home.[/quote]
First organic ever to stand in that part of the Citadel. Doesn't mean anything more than that no organic had ever stood on that part of the Citadel.
[quote]We alredy disproved him in the war organics vs syntetics. We made peace with the geth[/quote]
Geth were anomalous. The Catalyst states that synthetics have tried to destroy organics in every other observable instance in the history of the cycles.
[quote]He also that the crucible is just a powersource, did he alredy have the capabilities then.[/quote]
He says that he didn't have them.
[quote]Who would design the crucible to do 3 specific things?[/quote]
It's been tweaked by countless cycles, not unrealistic that it would have more than just one function.
[quote]Why didn't the reapers take the citadel from the beginning & shut down the realays as they did with the protheans[/quote]
Why would they need to? They were winning on every front anyway.
[quote] it also takes
away free will & conflict (conflict is part of life) & makes you
a husk.[/quote]
It did none of those things. It granted understanding and enlightenment, and strengthened organic DNA. No free will is stated or implied to be taken, and we clearly see that nobody becomes a husk.
[quote]In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"[/quote]
"Organics do not know each other's minds, Geth do." Post-synthesis, organics have a deep understanding of one another. That would eliminate quite a bit of hatred and conflict.
[quote]Reapers cooperating with organics would never happen voluntarily[/quote]
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
Modifié par Geneaux486, 20 juillet 2012 - 11:10 .
#64
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 11:41
Wayning_Star
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sythesis is the only practical thing to do in an impractical MEU. Chances are none of it happened, but if it did, the MEU would likely choose synthesis over forever wars or a demi-god hero and Shepard would probabley NEVER just walk away after all that hassle getting to the point of NO return.
in real time none of the choices are realistic, but you can't have everything..but you can argue about it.
in real time none of the choices are realistic, but you can't have everything..but you can argue about it.
#65
Posté 20 juillet 2012 - 11:58
Kamfrenchie
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Geneaux486 wrote...
They were able to build it to specifications knowing that it would be capable of generating massive amounts of energy and that it would broadcast that energy through the mass relays. They simply didn't know the effects. The atomic bomb was a bit of an unknown as well, yet scientists were still able to put that together.
NO, WRONG !
Do not compare the atomic bomb and the crucible.
The scientist who made the atomic bomb knew how it worked, they had the theory and the pactice, they made test and all that. They knew a 100% how the bomb worked. They didn't find the plans out of nowhere, they created it ffrom the beginning
Whoever compare the A-bomb and the crucible from no on should go back to his histor book, no offense.
I cringe every time someone says that.
#66
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 12:22
Kamfrenchie
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Geneaux486 wrote...
snip
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
1) Yes the crucible is contrived, as it appear in a place suposed to have been etirely studied, right at the conveniet moment.
Any write worth its salt would agree that the crucble is contrived, as it was never foreshadowed a super weapon existed.
2) already answered, the A bomb ha nothing in common, the scientist knew everything about it.
3) like uniting the galaxy ?
4) it is a sudden change, I don't see how you can ddeny that, any other media doing something smilar would be considered a sudden change
5) yes it does, as Sovreign saidthey were ach an INDEPENDANT ntion, whose motives wer beyong our comprehension.
6) baseless speculation, where would he go ? he never implied he could leave.
7) I think you misunderstood what he meant
8) it makes no sense that an energy source would be all that' required to give him such options, surely he'd have no poblem getting a powersource himself ?
9) f no other organic ever stood there it means no one else ever met him, hence the crucibl altering him make no sense
10) he has no proof, and eve if h had countles example, his "always" is wrong
11) see 8
12) The mere idea that countless cycles worked on it is stupid, as it maks no sense th reapers never eradicated the project. What would make sense, would be tht one cycle scrwed up an the cucibledoesn't work. They always meant to estroy the reapers the other options make no sense
13) they dn't know they would win everywhee before they invaded, and it would help reduce casualties and prevent organics from killin reapers or hidig too easily. It's an easy place to seizeand it has huge advantages, anyone decently intelligent would do it
14) meh
15) prove it. Anyway most conflict exist because of economical reason, so you don' fix anything.
Imagine if you had access to everyone's dirty thoughts, like racism, xenophobia, egoism, despise, envy, would you really be more at peace ? wouldn't you mind everyon reading your every thoughts ?
And do you really think anyone would be willing o cooperate with abominations that kille millions of people and probably member of your family or some of your friends ?
Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .
#67
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 12:33
Xamufam
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[quote]Geneaux486 wrote...
[quote]Bioware forced crucible in our faces instead of letting it come naturally in the story.[/quote]
For starters the Crucible isn't any more "forced" in our faces than anything else the writers of the story chose to write into the story. Secondly, it did come naturally into the story, it was discovered in a system the Reapers didn't visit in the previous cycle by a character who has been known since the first game to have a talent for finding things that nobody else could find. Furthermore, it started out as an idea that was slowly made into a reality through the game. [/quote]
It's forced, it would have been better if there was information you found in the collectorbase
[quote]
[quote]We have no idea how the crucible will work, How can we build it when we don't know how it works?[/quote]
They were able to build it to specifications knowing that it would be capable of generating massive amounts of energy and that it would broadcast that energy through the mass relays. They simply didn't know the effects. The atomic bomb was a bit of an unknown as well, yet scientists were still able to put that together.[/quote]
without understanding how it worked we would not have been able to create it
[quote]
[quote]Did anyone understand why bioware put the crucible in the game in the first place.[/quote]
Because a game-changer of some kind would be needed to make a victory against the entire reaper species feasible.[/quote]
they could have handled it better
[quote]
[quote]You don't make a sudden change in the plot at the ending.[/quote]
Which is probably why they didn't.[/quote]
The game was about destroy the reapers not fuse them.
you don't introduce a new character & new information when there is just 10 min of the game left
[quote]
[quote]Just his pesence throws Mass effect 1 in the garbage, all the things sovereign was meningless[/quote]
No it doesn't.[/quote]
yep it does the catalyst says the citadel is part of him why not control it it's the most important thing to end the cycle
[quote]
[quote]Why don't the catalyst control the citadel it's the most important thing to begin the cycle.[/quote]
The Catalyst identifies itself as the collective conciousness of the Reapers and mentions that they left the humans alone "The last time we were hear." meaning that the Catalyst comes and goes as the Reapers do. The Citadel may be its home, but one can leave their home.[/quote]
An AI can be everywhere at the same time
[quote]
[quote]When we asked who created it we the only thing we got was, we don't have time to discuss it.[/quote]
You're confusing what the Catalyst said about its own creation with what it said about the Crucible's creation. It gave a far more detailed explanation of its own creation than "we don't have time to discuss it."[/quote]
no it didn't
[quote]
[quote]He says that the crucible altered him how?[/quote]
It presented new possibilities that the Catalyst was unable to accomplish or concieve of on his own.[/quote]
How? It's just a powersource no one knew what the catalyst was
[quote]How did the organics know of
him to reprogram him , The catalyst says that shep is the first organic
that has come so far to his home.[/quote]
First organic ever to stand in that part of the Citadel. Doesn't mean anything more than that no organic had ever stood on that part of the Citadel.[/quote]
doesnt answer the question "first organic"
[quote]
[quote]We alredy disproved him in the war organics vs syntetics. We made peace with the geth[/quote]
Geth were anomalous. The Catalyst states that synthetics have tried to destroy organics in every other observable instance in the history of the cycles.[/quote]
in his time maybe
[quote]
[quote]He also that the crucible is just a powersource, did he alredy have the capabilities then.[/quote]
He says that he didn't have them.[/quote]
he says the crucible is just a powersource where did they come from?
[quote]
[quote]Who would design the crucible to do 3 specific things?[/quote]
It's been tweaked by countless cycles, not unrealistic that it would have more than just one function.[/quote]
without understanding how it works & what it is. impossible
[quote]
[quote]Why didn't the reapers take the citadel from the beginning & shut down the realays as they did with the protheans[/quote]
Why would they need to? They were winning on every front anyway.[/quote]
they have done so in every cycle why stop now, why not strand the organics
[quote] it also takes
away free will & conflict (conflict is part of life) & makes you
a husk.
It did none of those things. It granted understanding and enlightenment, and strengthened organic DNA. No free will is stated or implied to be taken, and we clearly see that nobody becomes a husk.[/quote]
a cultur that is not ready & forced for such a thing will end in disaster like giving nukes to cavemen
[quote]In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"
"Organics do not know each other's minds, Geth do." Post-synthesis, organics have a deep understanding of one another. That would eliminate quite a bit of hatred and conflict.[/quote]
no it would not after the reapers slaughtered many organics the organics would never forgive
[quote]
[quote]Reapers cooperating with organics would never happen voluntarily[/quote]
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.[/quote]
would you accept them if theyed killed somone close to you
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.[/quote]
nop
[quote]Bioware forced crucible in our faces instead of letting it come naturally in the story.[/quote]
For starters the Crucible isn't any more "forced" in our faces than anything else the writers of the story chose to write into the story. Secondly, it did come naturally into the story, it was discovered in a system the Reapers didn't visit in the previous cycle by a character who has been known since the first game to have a talent for finding things that nobody else could find. Furthermore, it started out as an idea that was slowly made into a reality through the game. [/quote]
It's forced, it would have been better if there was information you found in the collectorbase
[quote]
[quote]We have no idea how the crucible will work, How can we build it when we don't know how it works?[/quote]
They were able to build it to specifications knowing that it would be capable of generating massive amounts of energy and that it would broadcast that energy through the mass relays. They simply didn't know the effects. The atomic bomb was a bit of an unknown as well, yet scientists were still able to put that together.[/quote]
without understanding how it worked we would not have been able to create it
[quote]
[quote]Did anyone understand why bioware put the crucible in the game in the first place.[/quote]
Because a game-changer of some kind would be needed to make a victory against the entire reaper species feasible.[/quote]
they could have handled it better
[quote]
[quote]You don't make a sudden change in the plot at the ending.[/quote]
Which is probably why they didn't.[/quote]
The game was about destroy the reapers not fuse them.
you don't introduce a new character & new information when there is just 10 min of the game left
[quote]
[quote]Just his pesence throws Mass effect 1 in the garbage, all the things sovereign was meningless[/quote]
No it doesn't.[/quote]
yep it does the catalyst says the citadel is part of him why not control it it's the most important thing to end the cycle
[quote]
[quote]Why don't the catalyst control the citadel it's the most important thing to begin the cycle.[/quote]
The Catalyst identifies itself as the collective conciousness of the Reapers and mentions that they left the humans alone "The last time we were hear." meaning that the Catalyst comes and goes as the Reapers do. The Citadel may be its home, but one can leave their home.[/quote]
An AI can be everywhere at the same time
[quote]
[quote]When we asked who created it we the only thing we got was, we don't have time to discuss it.[/quote]
You're confusing what the Catalyst said about its own creation with what it said about the Crucible's creation. It gave a far more detailed explanation of its own creation than "we don't have time to discuss it."[/quote]
no it didn't
[quote]
[quote]He says that the crucible altered him how?[/quote]
It presented new possibilities that the Catalyst was unable to accomplish or concieve of on his own.[/quote]
How? It's just a powersource no one knew what the catalyst was
[quote]How did the organics know of
him to reprogram him , The catalyst says that shep is the first organic
that has come so far to his home.[/quote]
First organic ever to stand in that part of the Citadel. Doesn't mean anything more than that no organic had ever stood on that part of the Citadel.[/quote]
doesnt answer the question "first organic"
[quote]
[quote]We alredy disproved him in the war organics vs syntetics. We made peace with the geth[/quote]
Geth were anomalous. The Catalyst states that synthetics have tried to destroy organics in every other observable instance in the history of the cycles.[/quote]
in his time maybe
[quote]
[quote]He also that the crucible is just a powersource, did he alredy have the capabilities then.[/quote]
He says that he didn't have them.[/quote]
he says the crucible is just a powersource where did they come from?
[quote]
[quote]Who would design the crucible to do 3 specific things?[/quote]
It's been tweaked by countless cycles, not unrealistic that it would have more than just one function.[/quote]
without understanding how it works & what it is. impossible
[quote]
[quote]Why didn't the reapers take the citadel from the beginning & shut down the realays as they did with the protheans[/quote]
Why would they need to? They were winning on every front anyway.[/quote]
they have done so in every cycle why stop now, why not strand the organics
[quote] it also takes
away free will & conflict (conflict is part of life) & makes you
a husk.
It did none of those things. It granted understanding and enlightenment, and strengthened organic DNA. No free will is stated or implied to be taken, and we clearly see that nobody becomes a husk.[/quote]
a cultur that is not ready & forced for such a thing will end in disaster like giving nukes to cavemen
[quote]In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"
"Organics do not know each other's minds, Geth do." Post-synthesis, organics have a deep understanding of one another. That would eliminate quite a bit of hatred and conflict.[/quote]
no it would not after the reapers slaughtered many organics the organics would never forgive
[quote]
[quote]Reapers cooperating with organics would never happen voluntarily[/quote]
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.[/quote]
would you accept them if theyed killed somone close to you
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.[/quote]
nop
Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .
#68
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 12:50
Heather Cline
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Agree, the entire game is a freaking joke and poorly done.
#69
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 01:29
Memnon
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Geneaux486 wrote...
snip
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
So that's it? They cooperate voluntarily because they're free of their mission? I don't know, since they have free will and are each a nation, independent I imagine they might hold a grudge or two, no? Really, what is to stop them from killing off all organics anyways? Sovereign thought we were insignificant insects, I'm sure more of them do as well ... are we immune to indoctrination now?
I don't know how we're completely safe unless they're controlled; and if they're controlled ...
#70
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 01:44
zambot
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Stornskar wrote...
Geneaux486 wrote...
snip
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
So that's it? They cooperate voluntarily because they're free of their mission? I don't know, since they have free will and are each a nation, independent I imagine they might hold a grudge or two, no? Really, what is to stop them from killing off all organics anyways? Sovereign thought we were insignificant insects, I'm sure more of them do as well ... are we immune to indoctrination now?
I don't know how we're completely safe unless they're controlled; and if they're controlled ...
No, it's because space magic has given everyone unfathomably advanced knowledge and understanding. With that knowledge and understanding comes peace and prosperity. The argument that such a scenario is completely unrealistic is negated by the fact that synthesis itself is completely unrealistic. Besides, there are plenty of sci-fi authors that envision a future where ultimate knowledge = peace.
#71
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 01:53
Memnon
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zambot wrote...
Besides, there are plenty of sci-fi authors that envision a future where ultimate knowledge = peace.
Name some of them and the works that mention that ...
#72
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 02:03
RadicalDisconnect
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OP, drop your synthesis = brainwash argument unless you can give more compelling evidence. I'll quote what I've said in another thread to make your search for counter-arguments easier.
Look at control. No one is shooting at the reapers either.
RadicalDisconnect wrote...
Troxa wrote...
Not the sameRanger Jack Walker wrote...
There is also too much bad blood between Salarians/Turians and Krogan. The Genophage brainwashes them to co operate.
There is also too much bad blood between Quarians and Geth. Legion uploading the reaper code actually brainwashed the quarians and geth into co operating.
Would you willingly cooperate with something that killed friends & family
Because the geth didn't kill friends and family? Because the Krogan didn't kill family back in the Rebellions?
Look at control. No one is shooting at the reapers either.
Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 21 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .
#73
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 02:11
zambot
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Stornskar wrote...
zambot wrote...
Besides, there are plenty of sci-fi authors that envision a future where ultimate knowledge = peace.
Name some of them and the works that mention that ...
Seriously? Themes of transendence and enlightened civilizations that have grown past war are abundant. Let's start with Star Trek. The entire backstory of the Federation is that Earth has become an eglatarian, enlightened utopia that has long dispensed with the need for war. Most of the conflict in Star Trek is about humanity encountering less enlightened civilizations and protecting the utopia on Earth.
Modifié par zambot, 21 juillet 2012 - 02:12 .
#74
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 05:11
Geneaux486
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[quote]NO, WRONG !
Do not compare the atomic bomb and the crucible.[/quote]
Replay ME3 and listen to what Hackett says about the uncertainty surrounding the use of the atomic bomb. That is the source of my comparison, and the reason why it is accurate.
As for the rest of your post, I can't tell which number responds to what, so you need to rethink your formatting methods.
Onto the OP, who took the time to clarify what points they were responding to:
[quote]It's forced,[/quote]
See my earlier point about why it isn't forced.
[quote]it would have been better if there was information you found in the collectorbase[/quote]
It would make no sense for a weapon the Reapers have knowlege of to be capable of destroying them.
[quote]without understanding how it worked we would not have been able to create it[/quote]
Look back at Hackett's atomic bomb anology. They knew that the Crucible would generate energy, and that it would use the Mass Relays. The exact effect was the only unknown.
[quote]The game was about destroy the reapers not fuse them.
you don't introduce a new character & new information when there is just 10 min of the game left[/quote]
The games gave us multiple chances to choose what our individual characters' motivations were, from destroying the Reapers to simply protecting innocents. Destroying the Reapers at all costs was no more canon than saving the Collector Base.
[quote]yep it does the catalyst says the citadel is part of him why not control it it's the most important thing to end the cycle[/quote]
He says the Citadel is part of him, not that he controls it.
[quote]An AI can be everywhere at the same time[/quote]
Arbitrarily assigned rule that has no concrete proof in Bioware's fictional story.
[quote]no it didn't[/quote]
It told us of the problem it was created to fix, the reason why it chose to create the Reaper cycle, the initial species' disdain for that decision, and the basis for the exterior form of all Reapers. That is objectively more information than nothing.
[quote]How? It's just a powersource no one knew what the catalyst was[/quote]
Show me where in the game it is stated that nobody else in the history of existence knew what the Catalyst was.
[quote]he says the crucible is just a powersource where did they come from?[/quote]
The powersource.
[quote]without understanding how it works & what it is. impossible[/quote]
Never stated that previous cycles lacked this knowlege.
[quote]they have done so in every cycle why stop now, why not strand the organics[/quote]
The method was a means of streamlining the process, not a necessity.
[quote]a cultur that is not ready & forced for such a thing will end in disaster like giving nukes to cavemen[/quote]
Show me where in the ending cinematic for Synthesis this happens.
[quote]no it would not after the reapers slaughtered many organics the organics would never forgive[/quote]
We see in the ending cinematic that the war ended, so obviously they did forgive.
[quote]would you accept them if theyed killed somone close to you[/quote]
If they were programmed to, and then were freed? I'd keep an open mind.
Do not compare the atomic bomb and the crucible.[/quote]
Replay ME3 and listen to what Hackett says about the uncertainty surrounding the use of the atomic bomb. That is the source of my comparison, and the reason why it is accurate.
As for the rest of your post, I can't tell which number responds to what, so you need to rethink your formatting methods.
Onto the OP, who took the time to clarify what points they were responding to:
[quote]It's forced,[/quote]
See my earlier point about why it isn't forced.
[quote]it would have been better if there was information you found in the collectorbase[/quote]
It would make no sense for a weapon the Reapers have knowlege of to be capable of destroying them.
[quote]without understanding how it worked we would not have been able to create it[/quote]
Look back at Hackett's atomic bomb anology. They knew that the Crucible would generate energy, and that it would use the Mass Relays. The exact effect was the only unknown.
[quote]The game was about destroy the reapers not fuse them.
you don't introduce a new character & new information when there is just 10 min of the game left[/quote]
The games gave us multiple chances to choose what our individual characters' motivations were, from destroying the Reapers to simply protecting innocents. Destroying the Reapers at all costs was no more canon than saving the Collector Base.
[quote]yep it does the catalyst says the citadel is part of him why not control it it's the most important thing to end the cycle[/quote]
He says the Citadel is part of him, not that he controls it.
[quote]An AI can be everywhere at the same time[/quote]
Arbitrarily assigned rule that has no concrete proof in Bioware's fictional story.
[quote]no it didn't[/quote]
It told us of the problem it was created to fix, the reason why it chose to create the Reaper cycle, the initial species' disdain for that decision, and the basis for the exterior form of all Reapers. That is objectively more information than nothing.
[quote]How? It's just a powersource no one knew what the catalyst was[/quote]
Show me where in the game it is stated that nobody else in the history of existence knew what the Catalyst was.
[quote]he says the crucible is just a powersource where did they come from?[/quote]
The powersource.
[quote]without understanding how it works & what it is. impossible[/quote]
Never stated that previous cycles lacked this knowlege.
[quote]they have done so in every cycle why stop now, why not strand the organics[/quote]
The method was a means of streamlining the process, not a necessity.
[quote]a cultur that is not ready & forced for such a thing will end in disaster like giving nukes to cavemen[/quote]
Show me where in the ending cinematic for Synthesis this happens.
[quote]no it would not after the reapers slaughtered many organics the organics would never forgive[/quote]
We see in the ending cinematic that the war ended, so obviously they did forgive.
[quote]would you accept them if theyed killed somone close to you[/quote]
If they were programmed to, and then were freed? I'd keep an open mind.
Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:19 .
#75
Posté 21 juillet 2012 - 08:43
Xamufam
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Geneaux486 wrote...
1.The scientist that created the atomic bomb knew how it would handle the energy go read a history book.
You can't build something if you don't understands how it will handle the energy.
2. www.youtube.com/watch Listen to everything. The crucible is forced in to the story
3. Some of the protheans wanted to use the crucible to control the reapers, they became the collectors
The prothean vi states it
4. alredy pointed that out tou can't change what historicly happened even in a video game
5. Why would someone create something that does 3 different things inted of when all they wan't is to destroy them. And How did they create it without understanding it? Every game in me was about destroying the reapers & to deny it wasn't a sudden change is just pure ignorance
6. He should have controlled it's the most important part to start the cycle, It's just stupid that he did'nt
7. The dlc in me 2 & in me 1 it just have to have a connection
8. Meant the crucible not the catalyst who created it
9. every one thougt it was the citadel that was the catalyst
10. Nothing more than a powersource The catalyst said that itself it's a battery, how did the reapers not create it themself
11. If you dont't know how something works how can you program it right
12. they don't know they would win everywhee before they invaded, and it
would help reduce casualties and prevent organics from killin reapers or
hidig too easily. It's an easy place to seizeand it has huge
advantages, anyone decently intelligent would do it
13. If we don't achieve it on our own terms & phase were not ready for it & how long will the peace last if it's forced on everyone it will end i chaos.
14. Ever heard of human nature & whats stopping the reapers to betray everyone.
People are racists the only way to coexist is to brainwash everyone. In control it's just bad writing.
If they have free will it's a dystopia just waiting to happen
15. Even if the one they killed is the closest one to your heart
www.youtube.com/watch
Smudboy
You should never confuse the player
Kamfrenchie wrote...
Geneaux486 wrote...
snip
Synthesis frees them from their mission, at which point they do cooperate voluntarily.
Most (if not all) of your concerns are adressed in the game itself.
1) Yes the crucible is contrived, as it appear in a place suposed to have been etirely studied, right at the conveniet moment.
Any write worth its salt would agree that the crucble is contrived, as it was never foreshadowed a super weapon existed.
2) already answered, the A bomb ha nothing in common, the scientist knew everything about it.
3) like uniting the galaxy ?
4)
it is a sudden change, I don't see how you can ddeny that, any other
media doing something smilar would be considered a sudden change
5) yes it does, as Sovreign saidthey were ach an INDEPENDANT ntion, whose motives wer beyong our comprehension.
6) baseless speculation, where would he go ? he never implied he could leave.
7) I think you misunderstood what he meant
8)
it makes no sense that an energy source would be all that' required to
give him such options, surely he'd have no poblem getting a powersource
himself ?
9) f no other organic ever stood there it means no one else ever met him, hence the crucibl altering him make no sense
10) he has no proof, and eve if h had countles example, his "always" is wrong
11) see 8
12)
The mere idea that countless cycles worked on it is stupid, as it maks
no sense th reapers never eradicated the project. What would make sense,
would be tht one cycle scrwed up an the cucibledoesn't work. They
always meant to estroy the reapers the other options make no sense
13)
they dn't know they would win everywhee before they invaded, and it
would help reduce casualties and prevent organics from killin reapers or
hidig too easily. It's an easy place to seizeand it has huge
advantages, anyone decently intelligent would do it
14) meh
15) prove it. Anyway most conflict exist because of economical reason, so you don' fix anything.
Imagine
if you had access to everyone's dirty thoughts, like racism,
xenophobia, egoism, despise, envy, would you really be more at peace ?
wouldn't you mind everyon reading your every thoughts ?
And do
you really think anyone would be willing o cooperate with abominations
that kille millions of people and probably member of your family or some
of your friends ?
Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .
