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The crucible & the catalyst are terrible plotdevices & Synthesis is just nonsensical [Updated]


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#101
Geneaux486

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You contradicted yourself with your first and last statments - they established a very popular franchise with a passionate fanbase. Every game developer is looking for that kind of reception. The way the series ended was not popular to many, so I would imagine people will be hesitant to invest in their products in the future. That IS Bioware's problem


Most developers enjoy seeing their work well-recieved, but they don't have to care about the unrealistic expectations and exagerated criticisms of a subset of the fanbase. As I've said, it isn't their problem. They chose to care about it anyway, and tried to improve the ending as best they could, which is further testament to them being awesome, but it doesn't have to be their problem.

#102
Xamufam

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[quote]Geneaux486 wrote...

[quote]You contradicted yourself with your first and last statments - they established a very popular franchise with a passionate fanbase. Every game developer is looking for that kind of reception. The way the series ended was not popular to many, so I would imagine people will be hesitant to invest in their products in the future. That IS Bioware's problem[/quote]

Most developers enjoy seeing their work well-recieved, but they don't have to care about the unrealistic expectations and exagerated criticisms of a subset of the fanbase. As I've said, it isn't their problem. They chose to care about it anyway, and tried to improve the ending as best they could, which is further testament to them being awesome, but it doesn't have to be their problem.


[/quote]
It's their job to please the fanbase or they won't get our money.
Mass effect 3 goes way beyond suspension of disbelief
I am not saying that the fans should determining the story. but the story should make sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginary but more or less plausible
(or at least non-supernatural) content such as future settings,
futuristic science and technology, space travel, aliens, and paranormal abilities.
Exploring the consequences of scientific innovations is one purpose of science fiction, making it
a "literature of ideas".

Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possible worlds or futures.
It is similar to, but differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary
elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of
nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

The settings for science fiction are often contrary to known reality, but most science fiction relies on
a considerable degree of suspension of disbelief, which is facilitated in the reader's mind by potential
scientific explanations or solutions to various fictional elements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trouble with narrative
storytelling as opposed to pictures, is that pictures/paintings are made
to be seen and it's acceptable for meaning to be left to the viewer.
Yet words are to writers as palette, paint, and inks to a illustrators.
And a blank page isn't enough.

There's a compact between the
writer and the reader. As readers we accept that a work of fiction is a
carefully constructed fabrication, yes. Yet it's one in which we, as
readers, are 'in on' with the writer. There's an understanding that
there will be consistency which adheres within that written framework.
As readers we give our trust to the writer. All we'll ever know of the
world he's created are the bits he's shown to us.

Bad or good, are of course, subjective. I would even argue irrelevant.

Where
integrity breaks downs is when the writer breaks that compact- where he
either deliberately leaves details out that are germain/central to
explaining the narrative, or forgets them without later addressing them;
when he breaks consistency, either in plot or in character development,
but without giving solid causation leading toward it. Worse yet are the
times when he handwaves- when he lies or omits, is caught out, and then
says it doesn't matter. Let me just say that it does matter. Being
subtle is one thing, so long as there is a progression the reader is
able to follow. It needn't be grand or sweeping- perhaps no more than a
simple sentence given in passing, so long as it's there.

You
don't hide from or deceive your reader. You don't tie a blindfold over
their eyes and expect them love you for it. You just don't. I don't care
who you are. That's the worst sin a writer could ever commit. It shows
utter contempt for the reader.

A teacher once said to me, 'Never
write something on a page that you wouldn't want someone to read. The
words you write come from you. They are your soul in print.' The
integrity of an author and his work are so tightly woven together as to
be one. When a writer deceives a reader, it's not a matter of whether
having his integrity attacked becomes reasonable. He loses what no angry
reader or critic could ever hope to steal from him. He has no integrity
left.[/quote]

Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:36 .


#103
Memnon

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Most developers enjoy seeing their work well-recieved, but they don't have to care about the unrealistic expectations and exagerated criticisms of a subset of the fanbase. As I've said, it isn't their problem. They chose to care about it anyway, and tried to improve the ending as best they could, which is further testament to them being awesome, but it doesn't have to be their problem.



You know, I can respect Zambot's assertion that he accepts the ending at face value even though he disagrees with it; however, I reject this notion that alienating your most avid fans (a minor subset?) is a sound business decision. You think they're awesome? Great - I've thought they were awesome since I played Baldur's Gate in the  late 90s. I was such an active fan and member of the community that Bioware made a patch for Tales of the Sword Coast from one of my save game files. I've bought almost every single Bioware game since BG, and have preordered Collector's Editions of most of THOSE and even have ME action figures sitting on my desk (Shepard, Grunt) as well as some from the SWTOR CE. For some (including ME3) I bought multiple CEs ... so I have been the epitome of "Take my money" when it comes to Bioware. If you're saying that it's fine to alienate fans like myself, well okay. Maybe I'm in the minority, maybe I'm not ... either way, I'm going to be more careful about purchasing Bioware products for some time

Modifié par Stornskar, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:55 .


#104
Geneaux486

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It's their job to please the fanbase or they won't get our money.


If that's the case then all they have to worry about is whether or not people will continue to buy their products, and in this case, they probably will. That makes it even less Bioware's problem. As I've said, they choose to care about it far more than they ever needed to.


Mass effect 3 goes way beyond suspension of disbelief


It's a work of fiction in which people can create gravitational pulls with their minds.


I am not saying that the fans should determining the story. but the story should make sense.


It does make sense, you're simply choosing to reject the explanations.


I reject this notion that alienating your most avid fans (a minor subset?) is a sound business decision.


That's not the decision they made. They've accidentally alienated a subset of their most avid fans, and I don't recall saying the subset was "minor".

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .


#105
Xamufam

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Geneaux486 wrote...

It's their job to please the fanbase or they won't get our money.


If that's the case then all they have to worry about is whether or not people will continue to buy their products, and in this case, they probably will. That makes it even less Bioware's problem. As I've said, they choose to care about it far more than they ever needed to.


More people will be wary when it comes to the next bioware game. after the me 3 fiasco the sales dropped like a stone EA will probably shut them down.
EA have done so before with other companies.

The start was da2 every person i have asked has said they will be careful in the future when it comes to bioware. ea.s stock has fallen bioware is largely responsible for it. even tor failed ea payed 200-300 million$ for that mmo & it's mostly dead now.

Mass effect 3 goes way beyond suspension of disbelief

It's a work of fiction in which people can create gravitational pulls with their minds.

Fiction has to make sense. Science fiction must have explanations.
It should have some rots in science
It's not fantasy it's science fiction

I am not saying that the fans should determining the story. but the story should make sense.

It does makesense, you're simply chosing to reject the explanations.

no it doesnt make any sense how does the crucible work.
How does synthesis work
Why didn't reapers go for the citadel first it's a huge advantage
the catalyst deosn't make sense destroys me 1 why didn't he control the citadel

Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .


#106
Geneaux486

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Fiction has to make sense. Science fiction must have explenations.
It should have some rots in science
It's not fantasy it's science fiction


At best it's a mixture of science fantasy and science fiction, because they've never explained everything. The Reapers have always been a mystery.

They alienated most people you are just to blind to see it


I believe that you believe that. I like how you go from being positive that it's a majority to us not knowing that it's a minority.

You don't have proof no one has if it's a minority or majority.


I said it was a subset, not a minority. Unless you don't know what the definition of a subset is, you should agree.

but the outcry was huge no one has ever seen such a thing before


Divisive endings with a volatile backlash is hardly unprecedented.

It wasnt a minor i have 25 freinds that played me 3 3 didn't care 2 liked it & the rest was furius at it


And you've gone ahead and applied that statistic to the entire Mass Effect playing population. Most of my friends haven't played the game, so by your logic that means I should be claiming that hardly anyone even bought the game.

you need to go & read more books


You need to stop using ******-poor spelling and grammar. Don't get me wrong, I don't give a **** about other people's spelling and grammar unless I can't understand what they're saying, but come on dude, you have no business trying to take some kind of intellectual high road here. Discuss the game, leave the arrogance and condescension out of it. Or don't, I don't really care either way.

#107
Xamufam

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Fiction has to make sense. Science fiction must have explanations.
It should have some rots in science
It's not fantasy it's science fiction


At best it's a mixture of science fantasy and science fiction, because they've never explained everything. The Reapers have always been a mystery.


Mass effect 3 goes to far.
the mass realays has a scientific explanation, but you need something like eezo
I want to know how the crucible & synthesis works & I think most do.

They alienated most people you are just to blind to see it


I believe that you believe that. I like how you go from being positive that it's a majority to us not knowing that it's a minority.

It was never a minority & no one has the statistics

but the outcry was huge no one has ever seen such a thing before


Divisive endings with a volatile backlash is hardly unprecedented.


Not at that level

You need to stop using ******-poor spelling and grammar. Don't get me wrong, I don't give a **** about other people's spelling and grammar unless I can't understand what they're saying, but come on dude. Discuss the game, leave the arrogance and condescension out of it. Or don't, I don't really care either way.



Yep, i know just tired it's 23 a clock right now
You should also leave your arrogance

Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .


#108
Geneaux486

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Mass effect 3 goes to far.
the mass realays has a scientific explanation, but you need something like eezo
I want to know how the crucible & synthesis works & I think most do.


I take it you're equally upset with the unexplained tech that brought Shepard back from the dead, then.


It was never a minority & no one has the statistics


If you don't have statistics then you can't know that it was never a minority.


Not at that level


Yes at that level. It's quite common.


You should also leave your arrogance


It's arrogance to point out the absurdity of claiming someone isn't well-read because they don't agree with your opinions on a video game?

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:07 .


#109
Xamufam

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Mass effect 3 goes to far.
the mass realays has a scientific explanation, but you need something like eezo
I want to know how the crucible & synthesis works & I think most do.


I take it you're equally upset with the unexplained tech that brought Shepard back from the dead, then.

yep, but it had some explanation but how can something live when it goes into an atmosphere it should be dust left.
what can sheps shield withstand 100 nukes?

It was never a minority & no one has the statistics


If you don't have statistics then you can't know that it was never a minority.

I think most didn't care
And how do you know it was a mayority

Not at that level


Yes at that level. It's quite common.

When ME 3 came out it was everywhere about the ending every media & every forum.
No game or movie has come to that level of attention because of a bad confusing ending.

You should also leave your arrogance


It's arrogance to point out the absurdity of claiming someone isn't well-read because they don't agree with your opinions on a video game?

A game is like a book, it's a story & this story has alot of plotholes, flaws. To many in my opinion.
I went a little to far.

Modifié par Troxa, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .


#110
Geneaux486

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yep


Yet you stuck with the franchise.

And how do you know it was a mayority


When did I claim to know anything of the sort? I said it was a subset. Because it is.

When ME 3 came out it was everywhere about the ending every media & every forum.
No game or movie has come to that level of attention because of a bad ending.


Star Wars episodes 1, 2, and 3.

I went a little to far.


Don't worry about it, I went too far with my response.

#111
Xamufam

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Geneaux486 wrote...

yep


Yet you stuck with the franchise.

me 2 story was to god
it had some explanation but how can something live when it goes into an atmosphere it should be dust left.
what can sheps shield withstand 100-1000 nukes?

And how do you know it was a majority



When did I claim to know anything of the sort? I said it was a subset. Because it is.

Still remembers the polls :)  social.bioware.com/633606/polls/28989/
74069 votes,
  91% hated it

When ME 3 came out it was everywhere about the ending every media & every forum.
No game or movie has come to that level of attention because of a bad ending.

Star Wars episodes 1, 2, and 3.


Those werent a scandal

Modifié par Troxa, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .


#112
Kamfrenchie

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Geneaux486 wrote...

yep


Yet you stuck with the franchise.

And how do you know it was a mayority


When did I claim to know anything of the sort? I said it was a subset. Because it is.

When ME 3 came out it was everywhere about the ending every media & every forum.
No game or movie has come to that level of attention because of a bad ending.


Star Wars episodes 1, 2, and 3.

I went a little to far.


Don't worry about it, I went too far with my response.




just because the fanbase stick ith the game after 1 bad plot element desn't mean it's ok to introduce more in those.


AFAIK, star wars 1,2,3 got bad critics, but I think it was a commercial sucess, as the masses like the movies and it wasn't a scandal.  At least nothing that appeared all around the net like ME3 ending.

The fan didn't have unrealistic expectations, Bioware realy botched sevral part of the game

#113
No_MSG

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pirate1802 wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

The reason people are overlooking Krogan and the Geth is because they are actively keeping other people alive.  If some guy kills my family, then starts taking bullets for me, I'm going to let them take the bullets, and worry about the rest if they and I survive.

However, if some guy is, say, trying to eat my face, and a green beam knocks him off of me, when I stand up, I'm going to resume the fight.  I'm not just going to stand around, and then basically fist bump the guy.


And what if he helps you rebuild your shattered world. Would you still want to put a bullet into him? That seems so Wreav-ish.

And why am I giving the guy a chance to rebuild my shattered world?  One second ago he was trying to eat my face.  The only reason I'd not be shooting that guy would be if something changed my entire thinking process.  From "That guy is going to eat my face!" to "That guy is pretty chill.  I wonder if he likes buffalo wings."

#114
DirtyPhoenix

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No_MSG wrote...
And why am I giving the guy a chance to rebuild my shattered world? 


Because they want to? Because you come to know the things you were fighting didn't act out of their own free will as you had thought? Because you need their help? Its all well and nice of Hackett to say we will rebuild and blablabla, but thats going to take a huge amount of time, we don't even know how mass relays are made or how the citadel is constructed.

One second ago he was trying to eat my face.  The only reason I'd not be shooting that guy would be if something changed my entire thinking process.  From "That guy is going to eat my face!" to "That guy is pretty chill.  I wonder if he likes buffalo wings."


Entire thought process? I don't think so. Some cognitive changes? Likely. Probably they are trying to figure out wtf did just happen to them, that they momentarily stopped eating each other? We didn't see them hugging and all, we just saw them stop fighting. There is a difference between ceasing to fight and becoming best buddies and dance around.

#115
Zan51

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Stornskar wrote...

This concept of ultimate knowledge = peace doesn't make sense to me. What is ultimate knowledge anyways? That is as much a philosophical abstract as the concept of a technological singularity ... the entire premise behind science and discovery as that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know and need to learn more. If you have "ultimate knowledge" then there is no incentive to discover new things, to learn new things, to experiment, or advance - you become stagnant, which in my mind is the opposite of utopian peace

Even more - just having "knowledge" is pointless. You could download the entire contents of the Encyclopedia Britannica to every human being on earth, that still isn't going to change their individual goals, desires, dreams, and motivations. If at the push of a button I could tell you the per capita income of Kuala Lumpur, that's not going to affect how much I love playing soccer and learning about new technologica advances. Knowing things is useless without being able to apply it in a practical manner, or being willing to take risks and experiment with new things. If you take a PhD who has done nothing but teach and research his entire life, and put him in the fast-paced world of the private sector he would be worthless. This concept of knowledge = everything is naive, there is much more involved than just knowing


Agreed. Peace doesn't come with knowledge. Quite a few things are being left out of the equation here. 
Like IQ - you can download what you want into the mind of someone with a below 70 IQ and they cannot use it. They have too many neural pathways in the brain, and information, memories, that kind of stuff, ends up in loops and cannot be retrieved by their conscious mind.  http://www.brains.org/path.htm this explains some of it. You will always have a portion of the population unable to take advantage of any benefits because they aren't physically capable of it - their brain isn't adapted for it. And don't tell me the Green Magic suddenly makes everyone have an IQ over say 120!

Psychopaths! Hoo, boy! Serial killers on speed with access to much more knowledge! Just what we need!

Humanity is an aggressive species - http://www.livescien...aggression.html read this if you want to disagree.
But our aggression properly channeled makes us climb Everest, be an Astronaut, and explore the depths of the sea, be the best scientist, and a good parent.  Wrongly channeled it gives dictators and psychopaths. Remove our aggression and we will no longer be Human.

So any solution that leaves us less than human, or any other species in the ME Universe less than they are, is a bad solution.

#116
Binary_Helix 1

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Agreed. ME3's plot is an embarrassment. Starchild and Synthesis need to be removed completely.

The Crucible can stay if it was changed to more of a conventional super weapon that weakened the reapers not space magic.

#117
Xamufam

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update

#118
Xamufam

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Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. ME3's plot is an embarrassment. Starchild and Synthesis need to be removed completely.

The Crucible can stay if it was changed to more of a conventional super weapon that weakened the reapers not space magic.


In me 2 there was a mass accelerator weapon near a reaper they could have studied it & made more of it

Modifié par Troxa, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:31 .


#119
Xamufam

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#120
Xamufam

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Zan51 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

This concept of ultimate knowledge = peace doesn't make sense to me. What is ultimate knowledge anyways? That is as much a philosophical abstract as the concept of a technological singularity ... the entire premise behind science and discovery as that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know and need to learn more. If you have "ultimate knowledge" then there is no incentive to discover new things, to learn new things, to experiment, or advance - you become stagnant, which in my mind is the opposite of utopian peace

Even more - just having "knowledge" is pointless. You could download the entire contents of the Encyclopedia Britannica to every human being on earth, that still isn't going to change their individual goals, desires, dreams, and motivations. If at the push of a button I could tell you the per capita income of Kuala Lumpur, that's not going to affect how much I love playing soccer and learning about new technologica advances. Knowing things is useless without being able to apply it in a practical manner, or being willing to take risks and experiment with new things. If you take a PhD who has done nothing but teach and research his entire life, and put him in the fast-paced world of the private sector he would be worthless. This concept of knowledge = everything is naive, there is much more involved than just knowing


Agreed. Peace doesn't come with knowledge. Quite a few things are being left out of the equation here. 
Like IQ - you can download what you want into the mind of someone with a below 70 IQ and they cannot use it. They have too many neural pathways in the brain, and information, memories, that kind of stuff, ends up in loops and cannot be retrieved by their conscious mind.  http://www.brains.org/path.htm this explains some of it. You will always have a portion of the population unable to take advantage of any benefits because they aren't physically capable of it - their brain isn't adapted for it. And don't tell me the Green Magic suddenly makes everyone have an IQ over say 120!

Psychopaths! Hoo, boy! Serial killers on speed with access to much more knowledge! Just what we need!

Humanity is an aggressive species - http://www.livescien...aggression.html read this if you want to disagree.
But our aggression properly channeled makes us climb Everest, be an Astronaut, and explore the depths of the sea, be the best scientist, and a good parent.  Wrongly channeled it gives dictators and psychopaths. Remove our aggression and we will no longer be Human.

So any solution that leaves us less than human, or any other species in the ME Universe less than they are, is a bad solution.


If knowledge is given freely instead of earned the hard way then the species will destroy itself. It will end in chaos

#121
George Costanza

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The title of the thread pretty much sums it up.

#122
clarkusdarkus

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killing shepard then rebuilding him/her in ME2 was also crap so awfull plot devices seems the order of the day lately with bioware. The crucible could of been explained better through foreshadowing but the catalyst is and always will be the thing that ruined a franchise.

#123
Optimus J

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Troxa wrote...
Even if the next dlc will answer the question it's too late, the information should have been on the disc day 1.
Lessons from Sherlock Holmes: How do you kill your hero?
You should never confuse the player


Loved that.... Too bad Mac Walters is the TLDR kind of guy. He could learn from it.

#124
DirtyPhoenix

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Troxa wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. ME3's plot is an embarrassment. Starchild and Synthesis need to be removed completely.

The Crucible can stay if it was changed to more of a conventional super weapon that weakened the reapers not space magic.


In me 2 there was a mass accelerator weapon near a reaper they could have studied it & made more of it


I'm not sure if the actual weapon was ever found? I thought they only found the target (derelict reaper) and the rift created by it. Could be wrong I don't exactly remember..

Modifié par pirate1802, 23 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .


#125
Xamufam

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pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. ME3's plot is an embarrassment. Starchild and Synthesis need to be removed completely.

The Crucible can stay if it was changed to more of a conventional super weapon that weakened the reapers not space magic.


In me 2 there was a mass accelerator weapon near a reaper they could have studied it & made more of it


I'm not sure if the actual weapon was ever found? I thought they only found the target (derelict reaper) and the rift created by it. Could be wrong I don't exactly remember..

illusive man said they found both