155 réponses à ce sujet

[Memnon]

Troxa wrote...
If knowledge is given freely instead of earned the hard way then the species will destroy itself. It will end in chaos

Mordin says as much in ME2 ...

[BDelacroix]

Folks, this all makes much more sense when we see that the driving factor may be the mindset put forth by John Carmack of ID software when he said:

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."

It seriously shows in their products and makes sense of some of the insanity we see in others.

When viewed from the directive of "the story is not important, we just need to give people something to do for 10-20 hours" then all of these decisions work. They don't matter right from the beginning.

Now, I happen to disagree with Mr. Carmack's statement, but that makes little difference.

[Lyrebon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Agreed again. Since the main purpose of the Star Child was as an exposition device, the form of it was never required. We could have had a big three-way argument showdown between TIM, Anderson, and Harbinger in which eash advocated their own preferred way after Harbinger gave a history lecture.

But that would have mitigated what Sovereign said in the first game about being incomprehensible. We were never supposed to learn of the intentions of the Reapers, only that they were a driven force of genocide. It doesn't matter if the form of the Catalyst was required or not, the problem with the Starchild is its presentation: You can't throw in a new character in the closing minutes of a story, expecting us to accept it as a visage of persona like we've gotten to know our Shepard over the course of the series.

We empathise with other characters because we've become intimate with them, but the Starchild instantly blurts out that he's the head of the Reapers and all this evokes is a seething hatred. Explaining that organics need to be wiped out to save other organic life doesn't redeem its actions and only serves to confuse its audience ever more if they haven't already gotten over the bludgeoning that was the Stairway to Heaven.

If you wanted me to accept Starbrat he needed to be introduced in same capacity earlier in the game. Even as a voice in Shepard's head or a dream figure would have sufficed. Anything that could have humanized this calculating A.I. As we're taught to respect about the ME universe it is A.I.'s can go rogue, but we see E.D.I. as a prime example of the evolution in artificial life. The Starchild's flaws would have been a perfect contrast to that if it'd been introduced earlier.

Having a big three-way stand-off, being given three choices out of the blue is not a good plot device. Choices made throughout the third game should have affected how Shepard reacts in the end. Maybe Harbinger tries to convince her. We know TIM has, throughout the whole game, embraced Control; why not have several plot points where Shepard could choose to agree with a piece of evidence she finds or not? Maybe the Crucible is pre-set to Destroy but TIM's convincing has Shepard insert a virus manufactured by Cerberus into the system, altering firing parameters? Why not make her decision to save the quarians and kill the geth give her a bigger inclination to Destroy? 

Bioware said our choices mattered in the end, but where were they?

Modifié par Lyrebon, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[Xamufam]

BDelacroix wrote...

Folks, this all makes much more sense when we see that the driving factor may be the mindset put forth by John Carmack of ID software when he said:

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."

It seriously shows in their products and makes sense of some of the insanity we see in others.

When viewed from the directive of "the story is not important, we just need to give people something to do for 10-20 hours" then all of these decisions work. They don't matter right from the beginning.

Now, I happen to disagree with Mr. Carmack's statement, but that makes little difference.

In a rpg the story is the most important thing, the story drives the game.
In games like half life the story matters.
In games like COD & BF3 the story doesn't matter.

Modifié par Troxa, 23 juillet 2012 - 06:15 .

[Xamufam]

"bump"

[Xamufam]

"bump"

[Xamufam]

Lyrebon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Agreed again. Since the main purpose of the Star Child was as an exposition device, the form of it was never required. We could have had a big three-way argument showdown between TIM, Anderson, and Harbinger in which eash advocated their own preferred way after Harbinger gave a history lecture.

But that would have mitigated what Sovereign said in the first game about being incomprehensible. We were never supposed to learn of the intentions of the Reapers, only that they were a driven force of genocide. It doesn't matter if the form of the Catalyst was required or not, the problem with the Starchild is its presentation: You can't throw in a new character in the closing minutes of a story, expecting us to accept it as a visage of persona like we've gotten to know our Shepard over the course of the series.

We empathise with other characters because we've become intimate with them, but the Starchild instantly blurts out that he's the head of the Reapers and all this evokes is a seething hatred. Explaining that organics need to be wiped out to save other organic life doesn't redeem its actions and only serves to confuse its audience ever more if they haven't already gotten over the bludgeoning that was the Stairway to Heaven.

If you wanted me to accept Starbrat he needed to be introduced in same capacity earlier in the game. Even as a voice in Shepard's head or a dream figure would have sufficed. Anything that could have humanized this calculating A.I. As we're taught to respect about the ME universe it is A.I.'s can go rogue, but we see E.D.I. as a prime example of the evolution in artificial life. The Starchild's flaws would have been a perfect contrast to that if it'd been introduced earlier.

Having a big three-way stand-off, being given three choices out of the blue is not a good plot device. Choices made throughout the third game should have affected how Shepard reacts in the end. Maybe Harbinger tries to convince her. We know TIM has, throughout the whole game, embraced Control; why not have several plot points where Shepard could choose to agree with a piece of evidence she finds or not? Maybe the Crucible is pre-set to Destroy but TIM's convincing has Shepard insert a virus manufactured by Cerberus into the system, altering firing parameters? Why not make her decision to save the quarians and kill the geth give her a bigger inclination to Destroy? 

Bioware said our choices mattered in the end, but where were they?

Nop, choices didn't really matter

Modifié par Troxa, 25 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[Xamufam]

Update

[Xamufam]

Stornskar wrote...

Troxa wrote...
If knowledge is given freely instead of earned the hard way then the species will destroy itself. It will end in chaos

Mordin says as much in ME2 ...

Yea, but the first time i heard it was in stargate sg1

[Xamufam]

"bump"

[Xamufam]

"bump"

[RadicalDisconnect]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

OP, drop your synthesis = brainwash argument unless you can give more compelling evidence. I'll quote what I've said in another thread to make your search for counter-arguments easier.

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is also too much bad blood between Salarians/Turians and Krogan. The Genophage brainwashes them to co operate.

There is also too much bad blood between Quarians and Geth. Legion uploading the reaper code actually brainwashed the quarians and geth into co operating.

Not the same
Would you willingly cooperate with something that killed friends & family

Because the geth didn't kill friends and family? Because the Krogan didn't kill family back in the Rebellions?

Look at control. No one is shooting at the reapers either. 

If you're going to keep bumping, then address this issue...

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

OP, drop your synthesis = brainwash argument unless you can give more compelling evidence. I'll quote what I've said in another thread to make your search for counter-arguments easier.

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is also too much bad blood between Salarians/Turians and Krogan. The Genophage brainwashes them to co operate.

There is also too much bad blood between Quarians and Geth. Legion uploading the reaper code actually brainwashed the quarians and geth into co operating.

Not the same
Would you willingly cooperate with something that killed friends & family

Because the geth didn't kill friends and family? Because the Krogan didn't kill family back in the Rebellions?

Look at control. No one is shooting at the reapers either. 

If you're going to keep bumping, then address this issue...

According to Codex, indoctrination can be a 'passive' activity. In other
word, people will be automatically indoctrinated if they are
sufficiently close to Reaper. Indoctrination(and hacking) is primary
weapon of Reaper and indoctrination is truly asymmetric capability of
Reaper that guarantee their superiority against their foes.

Other that that i can't see why anyone would cooperate with the reapers after what they done.
Put yourself in a similar situation, you see your loved ones turned into husks would you stop fighting the reapers?
I think the majority would not stop fighting them.

Answer me truthfully

Modifié par Troxa, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:41 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Troxa wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

OP, drop your synthesis = brainwash argument unless you can give more compelling evidence. I'll quote what I've said in another thread to make your search for counter-arguments easier.

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is also too much bad blood between Salarians/Turians and Krogan. The Genophage brainwashes them to co operate.

There is also too much bad blood between Quarians and Geth. Legion uploading the reaper code actually brainwashed the quarians and geth into co operating.

Not the same
Would you willingly cooperate with something that killed friends & family

Because the geth didn't kill friends and family? Because the Krogan didn't kill family back in the Rebellions?

Look at control. No one is shooting at the reapers either. 

If you're going to keep bumping, then address this issue...

According to Codex, indoctrination can be a 'passive' activity. In other
word, people will be automatically indoctrinated if they are
sufficiently close to Reaper. Indoctrination(and hacking) is primary
weapon of Reaper and indoctrination is truly asymmetric capability of
Reaper that guarantee their superiority against their foes.

Other that that i can't see why anyone would cooperate with the reapers after what they done.
Put yourself in a similar situation, you see your loved ones turned into husks would you stop fighting the reapers?
I think the majority would not stop fighting them.

Right. And what about the peace you brokered between the geth and quarians?

And what about control? 

There's no in game evidence to suggest whether or not the reapers will indoctrinate in synthesis and control. Considering that most of the ending slides across the three endings are identical, my guess would be that no indoctrination is involved. In addition, if the reapers can indoctrinate, then why do they even bother helping with reconstruction? How does that even help them? What goal does that achieve? 

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:42 .

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Right. And what about the peace you brokered between the geth and quarians?

And what about control? 

There's no in game evidence to suggest whether or not the reapers will indoctrinate in synthesis and control. Considering that most of the ending slides across the three endings are identical, my guess would be that no indoctrination is involved. In addition, if the reapers can indoctrinate, then why do they even bother helping with reconstruction? How does that even help them? What goal does that achieve? 

peace you brokered between the geth and quarians=they didn't have a choice in that matter if they wanted to win they had to cooperate

Said it alredy from the codex

There is nothing disproving it

They would have Control in rebuilding the relays. spred their influence, faster travel

you havn't answered my question.

Modifié par Troxa, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Troxa wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Right. And what about the peace you brokered between the geth and quarians?

And what about control? 

There's no in game evidence to suggest whether or not the reapers will indoctrinate in synthesis and control. Considering that most of the ending slides across the three endings are identical, my guess would be that no indoctrination is involved. In addition, if the reapers can indoctrinate, then why do they even bother helping with reconstruction? How does that even help them? What goal does that achieve? 

peace you brokered between the geth and quarians=they didn't have a choice in that matter if they wanted to win they had to cooperate

Said it alredy from the codex

There is nothing disproving it

They would have Control in rebuilding the relays. spred their influence, faster travel

you havn't answered my question.

Talk about double standard. First of all, they did have a choice. If Shepard isn't persuasive enough, either the quarians or the geth will to the other. What you're saying is that the geth and quarians are forced to cooperate for the greater good: neutralizing the reaper threat. By the same token, I can say that people can put aside their hatred of reapers, if only temporarily, for the greater good: rebuilding devastated worlds.

Yes, I would stop fighting the reapers if it's unproductive and only for my petty vengeance.

Now answer my questions.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:08 .

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...


Talk about double standard. First of all, they did have a choice. If Shepard isn't persuasive enough, either the quarians or the geth will to the other. What you're saying is that the geth and quarians are forced to cooperate for the greater good: neutralizing the reaper threat. By the same token, I can say that people can put aside their hatred of reapers, if only temporarily, for the greater good: rebuilding devastated worlds.

Yes, I would stop fighting the reapers if it's unproductive and only for my petty vengeance.

Now answer my questions.

You made them have as little choice as possible.

just don't believe it will play out like that if it really happend

You may say that now but if it happens theres a different story, you can't know if you want blood or not if you have not experiensed it

If synthesis isn't brainwashing then it will create a dystopia & the catalyst problem won't be solved. (Conflict will always be part of life, without it we are nothing)
Knowledge given too a race that isn' ready will destroy itself.

Modifié par Troxa, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:50 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Troxa wrote...

You made them have as little choice as possible.

just don't believe it will play out like that if it really happend

You may say that now but if it happens theres a different story, you can't know if you want blood or not if you have not experiensed it

If synthesis isn't brainwashing then it will create a dystopia & the catalyst problem won't be solved. (Conflict will always be part of life, without it we are nothing)
Knowledge given too a race that isn' ready will destroy itself.

Ah, and you have experienced the desire for blood? Good to know. Also, thank you for arguing in absolutes. You know, conflict isn't just war and destruction. As far as I know, synthesis only resolved the synthetic vs. organic conflict.

In addition, I like how you state that geth/quarian peace wouldn't happen in real life, therefore, synthesis without brainwashing will lead to dystopia in the ME universe because of real life (even that's dubious). Ever considered that society in ME doesn't work like in real life?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:02 .

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Ah, and you have experienced the desire for blood? Good to know. Also, thank you for arguing in absolutes. You know, conflict isn't just war and destruction. As far as I know, synthesis only resolved the synthetic vs. organic conflict.

no i havent, but humans can change during those times, not unusual during war

everything is conflict, conflict can start small but can end large

Don't think synthesis will resolve anything there will always be organis & synthetics
have trouble believing in it when it goes against physics & biology

science.discovery.com/videos/100-greatest-discoveries-shorts-origin-of-life.html
there will allways be new organics & syntetics

edit: what i have seen of the me universe is that its much like our own universe evolved

Modifié par Troxa, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:18 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Troxa wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Ah, and you have experienced the desire for blood? Good to know. Also, thank you for arguing in absolutes. You know, conflict isn't just war and destruction. As far as I know, synthesis only resolved the synthetic vs. organic conflict.

no i havent, but humans can change during those times, not unusual during war

everything is conflict, conflict can start small but can end large

Don't think synthesis will resolve anything there will always be organis & synthetics
have trouble believing in it when it goes against physics & biology

science.discovery.com/videos/100-greatest-discoveries-shorts-origin-of-life.html
there will allways be new organics & syntetics

Everything is conflict is such a sweeping generalization. Guess what, synthesis does go against physics and biology. It's one of the reasons I dislike synthesis, but that's what we're given. Real life experience doesn't necessarily apply in the ME universe. Give me a shread of proof using in-game evidence that people are brainwashed. Evidently, if you say that geth/quarians peace wouldn't be possible in real life, then real life isn't an entirely valid analogy.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Troxa wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Ah, and you have experienced the desire for blood? Good to know. Also, thank you for arguing in absolutes. You know, conflict isn't just war and destruction. As far as I know, synthesis only resolved the synthetic vs. organic conflict.

no i havent, but humans can change during those times, not unusual during war

everything is conflict, conflict can start small but can end large

Don't think synthesis will resolve anything there will always be organis & synthetics
have trouble believing in it when it goes against physics & biology

science.discovery.com/videos/100-greatest-discoveries-shorts-origin-of-life.html
there will allways be new organics & syntetics

Everything is conflict is such a sweeping generalization. Guess what, synthesis does go against physics and biology. It's one of the reasons I dislike synthesis, but that's what we're given. Real life experience doesn't necessarily apply in the ME universe. Give me a shread of proof using in-game evidence that people are brainwashed. Evidently, if you say that geth/quarians peace wouldn't be possible in real life, then real life isn't an entirely valid analogy.

what i have seen of me universe is thats its much like our own universe just more evolved.

Modifié par Troxa, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

It´s not an artistic...

Hey, a meme replacing a thought-out and unbiased argument? I think I can do that to.


'Occupation,' 'Enforced Vaccination,' and 'Collateral Damage.'

'That's War, you idiot.'


Somehow, I suspect my categorization is a bit more accurate than yours.

[RadicalDisconnect]

For the record, this is my opinion on synthesis. I despise it because it is theme and lore breaking. It is contradictory and jumps into fairy tale fantasy that transcends all realistic norms. It imposes major change on every individual with unknown effects. This is ethically wrong. However, there is no in-game evidence that suggests it brainwashes people. Brainwashing is simply your speculation, and it is no more valid than any other speculation. So in your OP, get rid of the line that claims that there must be brainwashing going on, because you don't know that; it's just your speculation. Don't push your views as fact.

[Xamufam]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Listen to this guy www.youtube.com/watch
The crucible synthesis & the catalyst creates a contrivance so you can ignore them & create your own story

Modifié par Troxa, 28 juillet 2012 - 11:02 .