119 réponses à ce sujet

[rmccowen]

My math says a 6/5/6/6/3 Geth Infiltrator, using a BW I with Extended Barrel V and Sniper Rifle Amp V, does 1670 damage with a Cloaked body shot. A BW X does 2088 damage.

So against Cerberus, your GI is killing everything that isn't a boss or a Geth with two body shots. Hunters, Pyros, and Phantoms require two headshots or Proximity Mine + two body shots (still one cloak cycle, though).

Working Proximity Mine into the mix, Ravagers and Brutes go down in two cloak cycles, Banshees and Primes in five, and Atlases in six. That's about eighteen seconds to kill the heaviest enemy in the game, on Gold, without using any consumables.

Modifié par rmccowen, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:02 .

[Reorte]

It's certainly not a bad gun and never was and whether you think it's better or worse than the Valiant is entirely down to your style of play (I prefer the BW).

[masseffect420]

What's the best sniper rifle the black widow or krysae?
My vote krysae.

[rmccowen]

masseffect420 wrote...

What's the best sniper rifle the black widow or krysae?
My vote krysae.

Of the two, the BW is better if you're good at aiming at your enemies, and the Krysae is better if you can only manage to aim near them.

Of all rifles, the Valiant offers some major advantages over the BW--including much less recoil and a drastically shorter reload time. It's noticeably less effective against heavy enemies, however.

[HinDae]

ToaOrka wrote...

The Black Widow was garbage long before the TC nerf.
Valiant anyone?

Not everyone has an immediate shot at the Valiant, Black Widow is an awesome weapon in the right hands.

I rarely bother sniping now anyway, Utility specified Infiltrators with shotguns are more effective than Damage infils with snipers in my opinion.

[Dilandau3000]

The point of it is to be the coolest gun in the game. The name is cool, it looks cool, and it's still my favourite gun to use.

Sure, the Valiant is faster and has no recoil, but that just means I run out of ammo sooner. The Valiant is probably more forgiving if you're a worse sniper, because the fast reload means it's not too bad if you miss. But I've just grown attached to the Black Widow.

The Black Widow sounds powerful, feels powerful, and is powerful. And with three shots, it circumvents the shield gate issue of the Widow or Javelin. The high recoil takes some getting used to, but it doesn't bother me anymore.

I have and use the Valiant, Indra, Widow, Javelin, and Krysae, and the Black Widow is still my favourite. I really don't like the Krysae, by the way, at least not as a sniper rifle. I use sniper rifles because I want to blow the head off that phantom, not shoot grenades at it, even if the Krysae is much easier to use.

And yeah, against an Atlas you're probably better off picking off its escort and letting others deal with the Atlas itself. Killing Phantoms and Engineers is much more important than the Atlas itself, and Guardians are just a joke (the BW's innate piercing is enough that you don't need to be accurate on the mailslot; anything close to it will count as a headshot). As a bonus, you'll also get those 75 kill, 75 sniper rifle kills, and 20 headshot medals way quicker this way.

[ntrisley]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Okay, seriously?

Just because your precious TC damage bonus got tuned down a bit one of the best sniper rifles in the whole game is pointless now?
That is simply ridiculous!

Not everyone plays a Salarian Infiltrator and has shield stripping, nor a Geth Infiltrator and has Hunter Mode.

I play a Human Infiltrator for the most part. My "balanced"(Tactical Cloak with Duration and Recharge Speed evolutions, with Sniper Rifle damage bonus as the last evolution for Tactical Cloak. Alliance Training with both Weapon Damage evolutions) Valiant/Avenger X as back-up build took a pretty big hit.

It used to be that I would have a 117.50% damage bonus(these numbers are of course without gear, mods or striking a target in the head--where I have an additional 20% damage bonus making it 137.50% damage bonus and I would have the effects of Piercing/Extended Barrel on the Valiant) when striking with the Valiant. If I fired quick enough, I could get that with all 3 shots on a big target(Brute, Banshee, Ravager, Atlas, or even the ever lovable Geth Primes) and do quite a bit of damage...but to a single target and only while using my Valiant. My Avenger would have, at best a 77.50% damage bonus(97.50% when hitting a target in the head) due to the fact that my build was Sniper centric.

Now, I'm down to a 102.50% damage bonus (without gear, mods, or striking a target in the head where I'm at a 122.50% damage bonus) while using a Sniper Rifle and 67.50% damage bonus while using the Avenger(87.50% when headshotting) using that same build.


Now compare that to the flat damage build which actually ignores the Sniper Rifle Damage Bonus Evolution which is feasibly used for Shotgunner builds.
You're looking at:
80% Tactical Cloak Damage Bonus(potentially with a 50% melee damage bonus while Cloaked).
The ability to fire a power while Cloaked.
A 27.50% damage bonus for the two weapon damage Evolution bonuses.
107.50% damage bonus for a shotgunner build and the ability to fire Cryo while Cloaked.

This is, of course, just using the example of the Human Infiltrator. But I'm sure you can understand now why people such as the OP are annoyed at the changes to Sniper Rifles.

It should NEVER be the case that Sniper Rifles have less of a damage bonus than a freaking Shotgun on a class with a Sniper Rifle damage bonus evolution in the pinnacle spot for their class ability.

I should add that I ignored the Krysae for a reason on my numbers.
It is a poorly executed and poorly planned weapon choice and it needs to be removed from the game and taken back to the drawing board before being reintroduced

Modifié par ntrisley, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:27 .

[capn233]

I feel like I play a different game from some of the posters on this forum.

Post nerf I did a game with the Black Widow on my HI who has Bonus Power instead of SR Damage for Rank 6... it still worked even if boss killing was slower. On my GI or SI (with AR damage) it is still more than adequate.

As for the old Valiant vs Black Widow, weirdly in general Black Widow is still better against rank and file enemies (cloaked bodyshot, or two, to kill) whereas the higher sustained DPS may mean Valiant can take care of the higher HP enemies faster (this advantage is somewhat negated by the need to be out of cover, and take more shots that don't have the cloak bonus).

Modifié par capn233, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[masseffect420]

rmccowen wrote...

masseffect420 wrote...

What's the best sniper rifle the black widow or krysae?
My vote krysae.

Of the two, the BW is better if you're good at aiming at your enemies, and the Krysae is better if you can only manage to aim near them.

Of all rifles, the Valiant offers some major advantages over the BW--including much less recoil and a drastically shorter reload time. It's noticeably less effective against heavy enemies, however.

I always hit my target with the krysae.

[JohnShades]

I like how the OP ended his post with, "The end of this multiplayer is coming." Seems a bit dire. I imagine the OP on a busy street corner wearing a sandwich board that proclaims the imminent doom of mankind and handing out pamphlets telling sinners to repent. lol. Also if I wasn't so lazy I would take that line and make a meme with the Ned Stark "Winter is coming" image.

[ntrisley]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Okay, seriously?

Just because your precious TC damage bonus got tuned down a bit one of the best sniper rifles in the whole game is pointless now?
That is simply ridiculous!

Not everyone plays a Salarian Infiltrator and has shield stripping, nor a Geth Infiltrator and has Hunter Mode.

I play a Human Infiltrator for the most part. My "balanced"(Tactical Cloak with Duration and Recharge Speed evolutions, with Sniper Rifle damage bonus as the last evolution for Tactical Cloak. Alliance Training with both Weapon Damage evolutions) Valiant/Avenger X as back-up build took a pretty big hit.

It used to be that I would have a 117.50% damage bonus(these numbers are of course without gear, mods or striking a target in the head--where I have an additional 20% damage bonus making it 137.50% damage bonus and I would have the effects of Piercing/Extended Barrel on the Valiant) when striking with the Valiant. If I fired quick enough, I could get that with all 3 shots on a big target(Brute, Banshee, Ravager, Atlas, or even the ever lovable Geth Primes) and do quite a bit of damage...but to a single target and only while using my Valiant. My Avenger would have, at best a 77.50% damage bonus(97.50% when hitting a target in the head) due to the fact that my build was Sniper centric.

Now, I'm down to a 102.50% damage bonus (without gear, mods, or striking a target in the head where I'm at a 122.50% damage bonus) while using a Sniper Rifle and 67.50% damage bonus while using the Avenger(87.50% when headshotting) using that same build.


Now compare that to the flat damage build which actually ignores the Sniper Rifle Damage Bonus Evolution which is feasibly used for Shotgunner builds.
You're looking at:
80% Tactical Cloak Damage Bonus(potentially with a 50% melee damage bonus while Cloaked).
The ability to fire a power while Cloaked.
A 27.50% damage bonus for the two weapon damage Evolution bonuses.
107.50% damage bonus for a shotgunner build and the ability to fire Cryo while Cloaked.

This is, of course, just using the example of the Human Infiltrator. But I'm sure you can understand now why people such as the OP are annoyed at the changes to Sniper Rifles.

It should NEVER be the case that Sniper Rifles have less of a damage bonus than a freaking Shotgun on a class with a Sniper Rifle damage bonus evolution in the pinnacle spot for their class ability.

I should add that I ignored the Krysae for a reason on my numbers.
It is a poorly executed and poorly planned weapon choice and it needs to be removed from the game and taken back to the drawing board before being reintroduced

Pending sniper rifle buffs of about 15% across the entire board as was heavily hinted at by Mr. Fagnan aside, you are not taking one important fact into consideration:

Range.

A Shotgun Infiltrator might have marginally more pure damage output, especially as the hardhitter of them, the Claymore, is easily accessable as compared to the sniper rifle one (Javelin, though the Widow is not an unfair comparision on its own), but you have to get into a specific range for them to be truly effective. All your math wouldn't add up if not every single pellet of the shot hit the target. That range can differ on account of shotgun type and Smart Choke application if they do, but even an accurate Shotgun is hardly effective beyond a moderate medium range. A sniper rifle can reliably (depending on the aiming skill of course) dish out its whole damage on targets on ranges that a shotgun could never reach.

Aside that, not every shotgun build takes the damage evolution. Some builds favour mobility over pure lethalty exactly because they want the ability to close into effective ranges or cap objectives cloaked for more than four/five seconds.
Furthermore, going with that argument is the issue on aiming at its basics. A sniper rifle is precise, a shotgun is not:

Achieving a headshot with a sniper rifle is relatively easy. Head in crosshairs -> shoot
Achieving a headshot with a shotgun is comparatively hard: Head in crosshairs -> effective range -> shoot&hope for little spray

That means the effective range of a shotgun is not only the one in which all pellets hit the target, but where all the pellets hit the even smaller headbox. You need to get into that range somehow, and most Infiltrators use their TC for that. You can actually argue that a longer cloak duration means a more effective pure damage output due to better aimed shots as compared to more damage per shot but more shots missing their intended target because the firing position is not as optimal.

That however is of no consideration for sniper rifles. There you just activate TC for the damage bonus, point and shoot. The cloak itself is mostly only used to cross a harmful area, you don't need it to set up a shot as the average shotgun infiltrator use it.

You can certainly argue that Duration was used primarily by shotgunners--but you'd most likely be wrong.

And I don't know what shotguns you're using, because the Claymore is pretty precise even without the Smart Choke.

[rmccowen]

ntrisley wrote...

Not everyone plays a Salarian Infiltrator and has shield stripping, nor a Geth Infiltrator and has Hunter Mode.

I play a Human Infiltrator for the most part. My "balanced"(Tactical Cloak with Duration and Recharge Speed evolutions, with Sniper Rifle damage bonus as the last evolution for Tactical Cloak. Alliance Training with both Weapon Damage evolutions) Valiant/Avenger X as back-up build took a pretty big hit.

I peeked at your manifest, and I'm confused. Why a backup at all, with the Valiant, and why pick the Avenger? Under what circumstances is it a better choice than a Carnifex--or, for that matter, a Tempest?

(damage bonus calculations)

Your numbers are off. The Human Infiltrator has up to 27.5% from the Alliance Training passive, and used to have a +90% additive bonus (IIRC) and a 40% multiplicative bonus. Assuming an Extended Barrel V mod, that totals to a 239.5% bonus with the sniper and a 142.5% bonus with a non-sniper weapon.

After the balance change, your total bonuses are (approximately) +190% with a sniper and 132.5% with anything else. So you lost about 50% of your base sniper damage, or about 15% of your total sniper damage, due to the nerf. The damage change on the AR is under 5%.

I would also like to emphasize the fact that a damage-focused, non-Geth sniper Infiltrator was reduced to dealing merely triple the weapon's base damage.

Now compare that to the flat damage build which actually ignores the Sniper Rifle Damage Bonus Evolution which is feasibly used for Shotgunner builds...

Are you unaware that you can use powers under Tactical Cloak even without the Rank 6 evolution? Also your damage numbers are off, again. A sniper Infiltrator, even if he chooses the Duration evolution at Rank 4, will always have a better damage bonus than a shotgun user due to the way the Rank 6 damage evolution works.

This is, of course, just using the example of the Human Infiltrator. But I'm sure you can understand now why people such as the OP are annoyed at the changes to Sniper Rifles.

No, I don't.

[Fennekin]

I loved the Black Widow since the day I got it and still loving it. Surely, it's been a little tough since the nerf but nothing I can't handle. I just had to push myself to my limits and I usually score second or first. I find Valiant way less useful than the BW and I am in awe when I see people rocking out with it. I wish I could, too but I guess some people like me just do better using BW.
For me it is the ultimate sniper rifle and I shall never abandon it.

You're welcome.

Modifié par Shiranui Okami, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:53 .

[rmccowen]

masseffect420 wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Of the two, the BW is better if you're good at aiming at your enemies, and the Krysae is better if you can only manage to aim near them.

I always hit my target with the krysae.

Then you'd probably be better with the BW.

[JohnShades]

Shiranui Okami wrote...

I loved the Black Widow since the day I got it and still loving it. Surely, it's been a little tough since the nerf but nothing I can't handle. I just had to push myself to my limits and I usually score second or first. I find Valiant way less useful than the BW and I am in awe when I see people rocking out with it. I wish I could, too but I guess some people like me just do better using BW.
For me it is the ultimate sniper rifle and I shall never abandon it.

You're welcome.

Thank Youuuuuu!!

[WaffleCrab]

having both guns at 2(valiant and BW) and krysae at 10, i still prefer BWm offers the best all around solution. Krysae is great if you use it with ammo powers, but you rarely have use for them on silver, and it does not do quite as much damage vs armored units as bw can do. Oddly enough i do not prefer SI or GI as my BW sniper, i prefer my GMI. BW with barrel mod and piercing mod is a beast when you combine it with the tactical scan, it litelarry shoots through 95% or more of any walls in any given map. you can reliably drop the trooper mooks with 1 hs through the walls on gold.

[Edalborez]

Sorry you feel that way exxtrooper. As you can see, others don't seem to be having an issue with it. You can't keep looking at weapons as "worse than they were 3 weeks ago". Judge them as they are now.

I look forward to the end of multiplayer, though I don't think it's coming for quite some time.

[L.ast L.ife]

To kill things fast.  Not much has changed in that department.

Modifié par L.ast L.ife, 08 juillet 2012 - 04:21 .

[ntrisley]

rmccowen wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

Not everyone plays a Salarian Infiltrator and has shield stripping, nor a Geth Infiltrator and has Hunter Mode.

I play a Human Infiltrator for the most part. My "balanced"(Tactical Cloak with Duration and Recharge Speed evolutions, with Sniper Rifle damage bonus as the last evolution for Tactical Cloak. Alliance Training with both Weapon Damage evolutions) Valiant/Avenger X as back-up build took a pretty big hit.

I peeked at your manifest, and I'm confused. Why a backup at all, with the Valiant, and why pick the Avenger? Under what circumstances is it a better choice than a Carnifex--or, for that matter, a Tempest?

Honestly? Preference and the Warfighter Mod since I don't have a Grenade Storage mod at the moment.
I like having an extra Sticky Grenade. Used properly in conjunction with Cryo(+radius evolution) , it ensures that a good chunk of enemies without shields are going down without really being a threat to you or your team.
There's also the matter of the Avenger being slightly underrated in my opinion, and you can make it quite effective when used in the proper situation(notably: aiming for the head and using Incendiary Ammunition to ensure grunts get lit on fire if Cryo is down).

(damage bonus calculations)

Your numbers are off.

My numbers are straight from the game, as of today.

I'll take your word on it that my numbers are off, because I'm seeing nothing in-game or on the Game Balance Changes which denote specific abilities are multiplicative v. additive.

[thegamefreek78648]

Eh, right now I would take the Viper over the Black Widow so....

Yeah, it needs some love

[mcz2345]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

I haven't seen the point to the Black Widow since the Viper buff.

Fixed, atleast for me, since then I never used BW again.

[ntrisley]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

You can certainly argue that Duration was used primarily by shotgunners--but you'd most likely be wrong.

And I don't know what shotguns you're using, because the Claymore is pretty precise even without the Smart Choke.

First, if you think I am so likely to be wrong, please elaborate.

This is going to be anecdotal evidence for the most part, as I do not have access to BioWare's numbers.

That note being made:
The majority of people who I have encountered playing Shotgunner Infiltrators have very much been those who crow about their position on the leaderboards, ragequit when they're not on top, and refuse to revive or play the objectives in favor of running around killing things. The same is also true of those who claimed to be "snipers" and just used the Krysae.

That is, supposedly, the kind of individual who this Tactical Cloak "balance" was aimed towards...the "selfish" players.

Second, then show me how the Claymore (with or without Smart Choke) has the same amount of precision and range than a sniper rifle.

Try lining up a shot from cover, rather than hipfiring.

[Immaculate J]

I have the Black Widow IV which is higher than my normal widow. I really hate both of them