295 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

It's about as much of a symbol against oppression as a goth girl's latest scar on her arm.
Nasty, but what the hell?

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 17 décembre 2009 - 02:46 .

[Kreid]

FedericoV wrote...
I may be wrong but in the dialogue before the dark ritual Morrigain speaks about the child as a symbol of the liberation of mages from the grasp of the chantry.

Not exactly, she says that "it will symbolize freedom for an old force" referring to the old god itself (imprisoned by the maker and then corrupted by the taint) and that "some things of this world are worth preserving" she also says she'll raise the child in the wilds and "teach him/her to respect what he came from" (dunno what she really means by it, magic, old gods and Grey wardens I assume)

On another note, I love how people call the child "godspawn" and such and think it will be definitely evil just because Morrigan is it's mother, when there's no eveidence about it at all.

[FedericoV]

ReubenLiew wrote...

It's about as much of a symbol against oppression as a goth girl's latest scar on her arm.
Nasty, but what the hell?

Maybe "the hell" is that the whole setting is about the true story behind the Fade, Magic, Andraste, the Chantry, the Old Gods and the Blight. But maybe I'm wrong and the major story of the setting are zombie kittens from mars that scream "this is war".

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 décembre 2009 - 02:56 .

[ReubenLiew]

I'd buy that game for 5 bucks.



ZOMBIE KITTENS FROM MAAAARRS!

[Squiggles1334]

FedericoV wrote...

Korva wrote...

Is it so impossible to understand that for some people it is extremely off-putting to be given the a choice in game #1 and then game #2 retroactively establishes a "canon" and "continuity" which has nothing to do with our experience, as if these choices never existed?

I understand even if I do not feel the same.
For me the canonical Warden could be a female rogue dwarf who has sided with werewolf, templars and Belhen/Branka, that has choosen to kill Eamon's son and to destroy the urn of sacred ashes and that has sacrificed herself in the ending, and it would not change my enjoyement of DA2 (if DA2 story is at the same level of DA:O, off course).

I'm only saying that I do not understand those position to the point of saying "I wont' play DA2" because of that. I don't know, those kind of things are in the nature of pen & paper's RPG storytelling. When a new edition is released a new canon is estabilished and no one ask to the developer to consider their personal games in the new setting...

I don't think any of us have said we adamantly will not play Dragon Age 2 if specific canon is established that does not agree with our playthrough.

This game has been marketed as a game of significant choices and grey morality with major consequences. It would seem a bit disengenuous to then make a sequel that says, "Whoops, all those choices you made in the first game were wrong, here's how things REALLY went!" That would significantly change my experience with the next game. It might still be an enjoyable game on its own (and I have every faith that BioWare will make it an enjoyable game either way), but it will definitely not feel like a continuation of my character's story and will just have to stand as its own story in a vacuum. What's more is that it will probably make any future significant choices in the game feel less impacting.

As far as pen & paper RPGs, at least players and DMs have the luxury of house rules if the next edition establishes a canon they don't like.

In any case, it felt to me like a lot of the major choices in the game were more about establishing the epilogue rather than setting things up for a direct continuation of the story (again, please let the PC die heroically/retire with dignity and not string him/her along for another adventure that attempts to top the epicness of stopping the blight). Soooo, I'm hedging my bet on BioWare making a new story that focuses on a new PC that's mostly unrelated to our first game character.

As an aside: I'm not very intrigued by Morrigan's baby as a dangling plot hook!

[Ulicus]

Colenda wrote...

How can it
be handled in a way that does not "hurt the sensibility" of those who
ended the Blight the old-fashioned way, and wanted nothing to do with
the ritual in the first place?

I think that can be done
quite easily. Morrigan just needs a Grey Warden to sleep with her - any
Grey Warden, as long they've gone through the ritual fairly recently.
It doesn't even have to have been one of the three in game candidates.
Someone else might have survived Ostagar. It would be quite easy for
the devs to blur the circumstances in which Morrigan conceived her
demon baby.

True. For all we know, the Old God's soul may lie dormant in the body of the fallen Warden... and Morrigan may still be able to get the whole "beacon" thing going (contrary to what has been said further up, there's no indication that Morrigan needs to be physically near the Archdemon). It'd certainly justify her leaving if she was only offering the ritual early as a means by which to save the Warden's life.

Or, hey, maybe it's not "death" at all but something closer to hibernation with the two souls keeping each locked in a death-like state? Maybe DA 2 can begin with your character waking up on a slab in Weisshaupt fortress after Morrigan strips the Old God's soul from your character's body? (I assume there's a time limit on, this though, unless Dumat and all the others are going to come back)

There are all manner of things that could go on, really.

Modifié par Ulicus, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[FedericoV]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

I don't think any of us have said we adamantly will not play Dragon Age 2 if specific canon is established that does not agree with our playthrough.

That's what Korva and other have said: if I misunterstood I apologize in advance. It's not the first time I see such comments and that's the only point I do not understand since everyone here agree that DA:O's story was great and compelling. Then, I understand all your arguments but for me the continuity of MY charachter is not so important, at least, it's not more important than the quality  of DA2 in itself wich is all I care about.

I'm not interested in continuing the story of  "The Warden" too. But I think that starting from scratch and ignoring the story of the 5th blight and the event surrounding it would not be good for the game. About Morrigain: my point is only that the story need a closure, whatever the closure is, since it's the only open cliffhanger in the whole endings catalogue (not to mention that the story of the baby old god is strictly related to some of the main theme of the setting).

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[Galad22]

Bioware is usually somewhat racist in their canon endings, it very rarely if ever can be anything else than human male noble. Although perhaps in this case it's female human noble with Alistair, Alistair having Morrigans baby.



Seriously I hope I am wrong and canon ending is Dalish Female instead or something, humans are overrated and everything should not revolve around them, definitely not in rpgs.



I was seriously pissed about Mass Effects two possible endings out of three for instance, somehow humans can pull a coup in citadel although they are about 30 years old space faring race and no other race seems to care, seriously was just horrible.

[lurking fear]

Well, I will play DA 2 whether or not there will be a canon. I have all faith in BioWare writers' abilities to deliver a great story. Personally I'd rather have a completely new story with new characters with some references to the choices we made in DA:O (via saves or dialogue options) - provided that this new adventure takes place not so long after the events of DA:O. For all we know, we may be dealing with another world-threathening danger many many years/centuries after. Which would be good, I suppose. Our choices in DA:O would be meaningless in that case (well mostly, it would be nice to hear a legend about a great hero who saved humanity from total annihilation by killing the archdemon and perishing in all his/her glory).

As for a canon... it seems that this demonic child of Morrigan holds a great potential for new story. I would be a little disappointed at that point to be honest. I'm sure I would enjoy the story, although it would feel as none of my choices were important (well I've accepted Morrigan's offer only once - with my fem human noble PC - yes I wanted to become queen with my beloved , but generally I prefer the ultimate sacrifice scenario, all my PCs are Grey Wardens to boot so it seem right). In that case I will just pretend none of my characters ever existed and some other hero did the job, but... it would be very difficult as I feel emotionally attached to my characters.

[philippe willaume]

Creid-X wrote...

Colenda wrote

I think that can be done quite easily. Morrigan just needs a Grey Warden to sleep with her - any Grey Warden, as long they've gone through the ritual fairly recently. It doesn't even have to have been one of the three in game candidates. Someone else might have survived Ostagar. It would be quite easy for the devs to blur the circumstances in which Morrigan conceived her demon baby. If we're playing as a new character in DA2, Morrigan's a stranger, and she isn't obliged to sit the PC down and tell them her life story. Appearance-wise, the baby could look other-worldly, non-human or take after its mother; so there's no Theirrin blond hair or black hair with an aquiline nose to give the father away.

Other than that, I agree with you.

It's not so easy, no matter who the father is, Morrigan needs to be near the Archdemon when it dies, and since it's essence goes to the child, no Grey warden dies so if there's dark ritual the Grey Wardens live.

I respect everyone's opinion, and everybody is entitled to them but whether you like Morrigan or not, it's pretty clear the dark ritual is the most interesting plot that could carry over (not to say the only one, again this is a matter of personal preference but it is obviously important to the story, important enough too to have most of Morrigan's development thrown out of the window by the end of the game for it's sake), coupled with the fact that Bioware said it isn't the last we're going to see about her and most of the community agreeing of wanting to know about the old god child I'd say it's the most logical  way to continue the story.

I understand there's people that simply don't like/care/agree with Morrigan and they don't even want her back, but there's also people who likes her and wants to follow this plot line which is honestly the most interesting one or at least the only  trace of DA:O that would potentially carry over into the next entry of the series, so I think that everybody should ask themselves whether they like to be stubborn into their own storyline no matter how much they like it or allowing Bioware to work with the plot that has more potential to write a good story.

We it is not that hard,
 
Here is a quick run of the possibilities.
 
New char no ties with DA:O
 
It is not know how the go child came to be, some said the hero of freleden, in order to trick his fate made a pact with the witch morigan, some say, fleneth possesed on of her daughter and practiced a dark ritual with a grey warden in woup woup land.
Regardless if there was any pact, the grey warden lost his life fighting the arch demon.
 
(woup woup land = where the new story happens)
 
New char and ties with DA:O
 
Dark ritual
It is said that to cheat fate, the hero of Ferelden and the witch morigan used a magical ritual to capture the soul of the old God that was once before it embraced the taint to become the Archdemon.  Now there is rummors that the god child has been seen in woup woup land. The fate of the grey warden is
-          linked to the tie in questions/import
-          or unknown it said that with his companion the grey warden lived happy ever after/ ended up doing cheap porn on a Russian web site)
 
 
Final blow
The hero of ferelden gave his life to destroy the arch demon and prevent the raise of the God child that is now roaming woup-woup land. It is not know how the go child came to be, some said that morrigan layed with another gray warden some say it is was flemmeth or one of her daughter. It seems that the effort were in vain.
 
 
Using old char
Dark ritual
It is said that to cheat fate, the hero of Ferelden and the witch morigan used a magical ritual to capture the soul of the old God that was once before it embraced the taint to become the Archdemon.  Now there is rummors that the god child has been seen in woup woup land. The fate of the grey warden is
- linked to the tie in questions/import
 
 
Final blow
As the hero of ferelden, you should have died with your body when you struck the final blow against the arch demon but fate had decided other wise.
Some say that the Witch morigan, other say, fleneth in the form of one of her daughter practiced a dark ritual with a grey warden in woup woup land.  
Was it Wynned friendly spirit, was it the maker, was it the wich ritual , whoever it was your are once again called upon to check the same old god you once defeated.
(basically reborn like the old god or resurrected like wynne)

[darkmax1974]

i think we will need to remove all the variables and stick to what's fixed.... like Morrigan was seen with child, the dwarves are at it again without a king, Dalish elves went back into hiding, the archdemon is dead, the Circle is running again, the Chantry was hardly affected.....



These are canons.



Then run down the possibility of what the sequel can be. Moreover, 6 different endings for this game can also mean 6 different beginning for the next, removing all the variable that is. I would love to have all my decisions made in this game transported into the sequel but that is a hard and urduous thing to request.

[philippe willaume]

is morrigan seen with a child when we do not go through the ritual?

[Kohaku]

philippe willaume wrote...

is morrigan seen with a child when we do not go through the ritual?

Some posters with male characters have said they got the ending of her with child anyway. This could be a bug though.

[tigrina]

philippe willaume wrote...

is morrigan seen with a child when we do not go through the ritual?

Morrigan is seen with a child if she's had sex, be that the ritual or before that wtih the male PC.

[SleepyBird]

Oops sorry, double post.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

Modifié par SleepyBird, 17 décembre 2009 - 05:33 .

[SleepyBird]

tigrina wrote...
Morrigan is seen with a child if she's had sex, be that the ritual or before that wtih the male PC.

Even if you are a female who declined Morringan's offer, she leaves with the words "Fare you well my friend, I do what I must now and so shall you." 

That "I do what I must now" gives the writers an out to claim anything they want regarding Morrigan, no matter what choices I made as a player.  Obviously, I would love to have my personal gameplay choices validated  - same as every person who keeps starting these "Make my ending canon!" threads, but I would love lots of things I can't have…  nevertheless...

LdyShayna wrote...

If you guys [...] decided that the PC was male and deeply in love with Morrigan, I would have to do something terrible to you and the whole writing and design teams. 

I second that!  Please please please BioWare, don't screw over female players again by saying our game never happened, the way Lucas did with Revan. 

That kind of boys-only thinking is what keeps the majority of women out of the gaming market entirely.  It is very hard to try and talk my friends into playing a game that throws a bait-and-switch plot point at you at the end to awkwardly force you into the male PC's storyline.

Mary Kirby wrote...

What if we had this kind of canon ending?

Now THAT.  Is awesome.  Thanks for the link!

[Maconbar]

If the PC is a women, I am guessing that Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual. If the PC is a male and opts out of the Dark Ritual then Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual.



Is there anything in Morrigan's character that would make most people think that she would just give up if turned down?



This theory doesn't invalidate the choices that we made in the game, it just shows that our choices aren't the only decisions of importance.

[Ravauviel]

Maconbar wrote...

If the PC is a women, I am guessing that Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual. If the PC is a male and opts out of the Dark Ritual then Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual.

Is there anything in Morrigan's character that would make most people think that she would just give up if turned down?

This theory doesn't invalidate the choices that we made in the game, it just shows that our choices aren't the only decisions of importance.

It does indeed invalidate those choices since presuming such a scenario a grey warden would "not have died" in the final battle.

[SarEnyaDor]

Yeah, my PC's die. ALOT.



She can have a baby, it just won't be an old god baby.. it'll be some one from the Empress of the Orlesians court, where she keeps being spotted. I've got a nice plot and a statue.

[Squiggles1334]

Maconbar wrote...

If the PC is a women, I am guessing that Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual. If the PC is a male and opts out of the Dark Ritual then Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual.

Is there anything in Morrigan's character that would make most people think that she would just give up if turned down?

This theory doesn't invalidate the choices that we made in the game, it just shows that our choices aren't the only decisions of importance.

As if Riordan is the kind of man who would actually fall for the old "'Tis cold in my tent all alone" line!

[SleepyBird]

Maconbar wrote...

If the PC is a women, I am guessing that Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual. If the PC is a male and opts out of the Dark Ritual then Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual.

Is there anything in Morrigan's character that would make most people think that she would just give up if turned down?

This theory doesn't invalidate the choices that we made in the game, it just shows that our choices aren't the only decisions of importance.

She does say that Riordan isn't a valid option, however she IS a shapeshifter and could pretty easily have seduced Alistair or Logain by using that power.  Yes, when questioned about shapeshifting she says she doesn't take human form because she has nothing to learn from acting like another human, but she doesn't ever straightforwardly deny being able to do it.  (My memory's a little fuzzy on that conversation, but I think that's what she said)

The main hitch I have with this idea is the fact that at the end of my game my PC died.  Which theoretically means the archdemon soul traveled into my character and they both were destroyed, leaving no archdemon soul for Morrigan to receive.  Had she seduced Alistair or Logain, shouldn't my character have survived?

[Layn]

SleepyBird wrote...

I second that!  Please please please BioWare, don't screw over female players again by saying our game never happened, the way Lucas did with Revan. 

That kind of boys-only thinking is what keeps the majority of women out of the gaming market entirely.  It is very hard to try and talk my friends into playing a game that throws a bait-and-switch plot point at you at the end to awkwardly force you into the male PC's storyline.

afaik the jedi exile from the second game is female in canon

[Maconbar]

SleepyBird wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

If the PC is a women, I am guessing that Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual. If the PC is a male and opts out of the Dark Ritual then Morrigan approaches Riordan about the Dark Ritual.

Is there anything in Morrigan's character that would make most people think that she would just give up if turned down?

This theory doesn't invalidate the choices that we made in the game, it just shows that our choices aren't the only decisions of importance.

She does say that Riordan isn't a valid option, however she IS a shapeshifter and could pretty easily have seduced Alistair or Logain by using that power.  Yes, when questioned about shapeshifting she says she doesn't take human form because she has nothing to learn from acting like another human, but she doesn't ever straightforwardly deny being able to do it.  (My memory's a little fuzzy on that conversation, but I think that's what she said)

The main hitch I have with this idea is the fact that at the end of my game my PC died.  Which theoretically means the archdemon soul traveled into my character and they both were destroyed, leaving no archdemon soul for Morrigan to receive.  Had she seduced Alistair or Logain, shouldn't my character have survived?

Thank you for pointing out the flaw in the Riordan theory.

On the other issue about a dying warden, I agree that it it appears to cause a conflict. My only counter-argument is that it seems unwise to assume that Morrigan is telling us everything about the Dark Ritual. Full disclosure doesn't seem to fit with Morrigan's character, especially given her warning about having no future involvment.

[CptSpivey]

What I find really annoying is that whats the point of all the work of adding and writting the choices in if they won't matter in the end?.. It seems like a huge waste of time and money to give me a million different ways to play if only one story is right.
If only one version of events is to be built upon then just tell that story and be done with it.. While I don't doubt that building a game that used all our choices would be wicked hard, I find it kind of pointless to let us make the choices if they have no impact on sequels. If what happens in part 1 has no effect on part 2, what exactly is part 2 part 2 of? I mean if the next Dragon Age game will have nothing to do with Origins I'll be fine with that so long as it's not going to claim to be part 2...
　
And btw an ending with Arl Howe telling us how things could have, or might have happend followed by how they really happend would have been better than a slideshow....that is if the game will get the Reven treatment.