295 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Well it the method Obsidian used in KotOR2 worked well enough, only compromised by the game being rushed (well like everything else in KotOR2).

If Mass Effect 2 works as promised that might be the benchmark for future choice-based plot games.



Or you can just keep it vague. Warden killed Archdemon on Ft. Drakon after civil war blah blah blah. And Morrigan had her devil-child with.. somebody. If you really really must follow up on that.

[MeatInACan]

I think that an option at the start of the game, similar to KOTOR 2 which establishes the major plot points of the previous would be a viable option to eliminate some of the distaste toward a 'canon' version of events. Obviously this would have to be within reason, as trying to account for minor characters could quickly spiral into an excessive workload.

Edit: Great minds think alike and post at the same time.

Modifié par MeatInACan, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:19 .

[BFBHLC]

kotorfan04 wrote...

Hey now don't forget X-pacs to tie up all the loose ends of DA:O

I believe that EA calls the shots there. As long as DLC is around, the days of Expansions are over - except in the MMO industry.

[Shady314]

The Angry One wrote...

I maintain toe-steppage is bad. It just feels irritating to play through a game then have something else tell you what you did never happened. BioWare have never done this I think, only 3rd parties related to the IPs they used to work with (D&D and Star Wars).

What you did never happened. It was fiction.
Wrong. They did it in BG2. That game that is held as the pinnacle of RPGs by many. And KOTOR technically has a canon ending (LS, male) for EU purposes.  I have no problem with a canon ending. Their BG1 official ending was nothing like my own. And Obsidian ignored the official canon in KOTOR2 and asked players. The idea Bioware could somehow negate the enjoyment you got in the first game by saying what officially happened in their game is laughable to me. That's like hating a good movie because the sequel sucks. No promises of carryover were ever made like they were for ME.

I think any canon ending will be kept vague. The sequel will not be in Ferelden nor reference Ferelden so they aren't going to say what happened to Isolde or at the mage tower etc.

[The Angry One]

Shady314 wrote...

What you did never happened. It was fiction.

Go and study the concept of suspension of disbelief and plot immersion, and don't come back till you do.

Wrong. They did it in BG2. That game that is held as the pinnacle of RPGs by many.

I'm told this was a decision made for them by the IP owners of D&D.
And BG2's quality would be in spite of that, as with Fallout 2. Not because of it.

And KOTOR technically has a canon ending (LS, male) for EU purposes. 

I've gone over that, and again I take a dim view of some second rate comic book writer on Lucasfilm's employ telling me who I played as. Revan is a character barely used in Star Wars EU anyway, and other publications deliberately kept Revan vague. Presumably their authors having more respect for gamers than the bozo who thought to impose his vision on us.

The idea Bioware could somehow negate the enjoyment you got in the first game by saying what officially happened in their game is laughable to me. That's like hating a good movie because the sequel sucks. No promises of carryover were ever made like they were for ME.

No, but you'd hate the sequel, no? That's my point.

[TrinityDivine]

I think having a canon ending would be like cheating. At the very least, it's taking the easy way out and would probably alienate a lot of players. You can't really compare it to the transition between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 because although BG was a good game, you don't have the same emotional attachment to your character there as you do in Dragon Age. I believe a lot of that has to do with the romance options they gave us so in a sense, Bioware dug its own grave here.



Challenging or otherwise, I think there's a very compelling reason to carry player choices forward in any DA sequel if it's a continuation of the Origins story. Barring that, the only other option is to jump forward in time or take it to a place where none of the choices you made in the distant past (or in a distant land) even matter.

[FedericoV]

The Angry One wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

What you did never happened. It was fiction.

Go and study the concept of suspension of disbelief and plot immersion, and don't come back till you do.

Suspension of disbilief and immersion are way overrated when we talk of PC games and interactive media in general.

They are important for books and films but not very much for games imho, especially for western RPGs where graphics are not the focus traditionally.

[Shady314]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...
Go and study the concept of suspension of disbelief and plot immersion, and don't come back till you do.
[/quote]
According to my research they are stupid buzzwords that people on forums use to whine about ANYTHING they dislike.
[quote]I'm told this was a decision made for them by the IP owners of D&D.[/quote]

[/quote]Yes just like KOTOR.

[quote]And BG2's quality would be in spite of that, as with Fallout 2. Not because of it.[/quote]
In your opinion. But then you admit DA2 could be amazing despite a canon ending.

[quote]I've gone over that, and again I take a dim view of some second rate comic book writer on Lucasfilm's employ telling me who I played as. Revan is a character barely used in Star Wars EU anyway, and other publications deliberately kept Revan vague. Presumably their authors having more respect for gamers than the bozo who thought to impose his vision on us.[/quote]
Whine Whine whine. No one can tell you who you played as. You give others far too much control over your  emotions. That's not healthy.

[quote]No, but you'd hate the sequel, no? That's my point.[/quote]
That's your point? It sounded as if your point was you would automatically hate the sequel because the director changed.... This analogy just got very labored.

If I hated the sequel I'd hate it on it's own merits and it would not and could not affect my enjoyment of the first movie. Whereas you specifically said the sequel having a canon ending would negate everything you'd done in the first game. Which is ridiculous.

[Popemaster123]

I think canon endings are nesscary.....But then again do you really need to follow one?

They should let people decide with as the angry one says TSL style,dialogue choices to say what happened e.g. Revan was a woman,Revan was a great sith lord etc etc. thats what u do in ME2 if u dont carry your choices over (thats all it does btw u can still change class and appearance) or use and old save to cary chices.

Anyways, canon endings are useful to SOME people not everyone and if u don't like them fine DON'T use them.

[Shady314]

Popemaster123 wrote...

I think canon endings are nesscary.....But then again do you really need to follow one?
They should let people decide with as the angry one says TSL style,dialogue choices to say what happened e.g. Revan was a woman,Revan was a great sith lord etc etc. thats what u do in ME2 if u dont carry your choices over (thats all it does btw u can still change class and appearance) or use and old save to cary chices.
Anyways, canon endings are useful to SOME people not everyone and if u don't like them fine DON'T use them.

That's really what I expect from DA2 if they decide to even bring up events from the first game.
If they don't set it in Ferelden and I seriously doubt they would they don't have to take into account hardly any of your actions. Maybe who is king both in Orzammar and Ferelden. If the Grey Warden died and maybe who they romanced if you can play as the same character. People thinking Bioware is going to make a canon ending for every little choice in the game is crazy. Isolde, Mage Tower, Werewolves etc. will probably never ever be brought up.

[Shady314]

Colenda wrote...
It's right that BG2 was a very good RPG, despite ignoring the possibility that the PC had ditched/killed/blown up the NPCs you meet in Irenicus's dungeon.  I played BG2 before I played BG, and I can remember, innocent fourteen year old that I was, that I was moved by the bit where Jaheria finds Khalid's body. But I don't know that BG2 was so good because it stomped on the backstory of individual players. Likewise, I don't see that creating a solid canon for the events in Fereldan (beyond: Archdemon dead, Blight over, Morrigan had a demon child from...someone) would necessarily make DA2  a better game than a DA2 that leaves DAO well behind it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd probably play DA2 if Bioware carried over diametrically opposite choices to the ones made by my PCs, still, I think I'd prefer it if they didn't. Unless they've got some absolutely brilliant idea about how to continue the story directly from DAO - one which, however, necessitates that the PC was a savant nug who had a star-crossed romance with the mabari and begot a tribe of mutant zombie kittens to overrun Thedas.

What's with the strawman? I never claimed canon ending would make DA2 better. I only pointed out that they HAD done it before. Angry One claimed they hadn't. So it is not outside the realm of possibility they'd do it again and this would not automatically be a bad thing anymore than it would be a good thing.

If they decide to do it like ME I'm not going to be complaining. That would be a very pleasant, very unexpected surprise.

[Popemaster123]

Exactly

[The Angry One]

Shady314 wrote...

According to my research they are stupid buzzwords that people on forums use to whine about ANYTHING they dislike.

Ah, you're a dull kid. It's okay.

Yes just like KOTOR.

Yes. And? BioWare did not make the decision in either case.

In your opinion. But then you admit DA2 could be amazing despite a canon ending.

That would depend entirely on the merits of the game itself.
It would still be ill-served by trampling over DAO and in-turn opening itself up to be trampled on by any further sequel.

Whine Whine whine. No one can tell you who you played as. You give others far too much control over your  emotions. That's not healthy.

By making something "official" or "canon", that's exactly what's happening. If you don't want to see that, that's your problem.

That's your point? It sounded as if your point was you would automatically hate the sequel because the director changed.... This analogy just got very labored.

I was responding directly to your example, genius.
And no, a more apt analogy to this would be if Aliens had retconned Alien by saying it wasn't Ripley who survived after blowing up the spaceship, it was the captain guy with the beard.. even though we clearly saw him get eaten.

If I hated the sequel I'd hate it on it's own merits and it would not and could not affect my enjoyment of the first movie. Whereas you specifically said the sequel having a canon ending would negate everything you'd done in the first game. Which is ridiculous.

It's got nothing to do with hating the games on their own merits, it has to do with the story imposing an arbitrary set of events that people may never have played through and telling them that's what happened.
That won't destroy the game, but it will ruin the plot to an extent.

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:59 .

[Popemaster123]

The angry one is very mean......

[Herr Uhl]

Popemaster123 wrote...

The angry one is very mean......

Yes, yes she is.

[The Angry One]

I didn't call myself "The Angry One" because of my mellow, amiable personality now..

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

I didn't call myself "The Angry One" because of my mellow, amiable personality now..

You can be angry and polite 

[Wompdevil]

Popemaster123 wrote...

I think canon endings are necessary.....But then again do you really need to follow one?
They should let people decide with as the angry one says TSL style,dialogue choices to say what happened e.g. Revan was a woman,Revan was a great sith lord etc etc. thats what u do in ME2 if u dont carry your choices over (thats all it does btw u can still change class and appearance) or use and old save to cary chices.
Anyways, canon endings are useful to SOME people not everyone and if u don't like them fine DON'T use them.

I kind of agree with you there. I thought TSL handled the way of continuing over your choices from KOTOR perfectly. Granted now we can just transfer a save file over ala ME2, but to me these options would take away the need of just one canon ending. The only reason there would be a need of one all ruling canon ending would be if they decided to novelize the actual DAO events or a comic series that ends up covering the events of the games or immediate aftermath. But other than that, I see no need to have a one true canon.

And if they do decide on a one true canon, I hope it includes Kain Loghain living. I have a better appreciation for him after reading the novels, even though he did some messed up stuff in the game

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I didn't call myself "The Angry One" because of my mellow, amiable personality now..

You can be angry and polite 

Only in a Parliament/Senate/etc.

"Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out that the right honourable gentleman there is a complete tosser."

[Popemaster123]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I didn't call myself "The Angry One" because of my mellow, amiable personality now..

You can be angry and polite 

I like this guy. hes after my heart.
But i locked it in a box years ago so meh.

[Taleroth]

Popemaster123 wrote...

The angry one is very mean......

I think she's cute when she's angry.  Adorable, even.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Only in a Parliament/Senate/etc.

"Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out that the right honourable gentleman there is a complete tosser."

Much better.

Taleroth wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...

The angry one is very mean......

I think she's cute when she's angry.  Adorable, even.

I once dubbed her my enemy, she is not cute. I expected you to hit on anything with female parts (or elven ears), but I thought you had some standards, for shame.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:08 .

[The Angry One]

I don't know why Loghain fans want him to live after DA:O.

I have a hard time seeing him post-Blight as anything other than a bitter old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn while muttering "I did it all so those Orlesian bastards wouldn't take over!" under his breath.



And I'm.. not.. adorable...

[Popemaster123]

Taleroth wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...

The angry one is very mean......

I think she's cute when she's angry.  Adorable, even.

About as cute as a preying mantis after its "high time"....