295 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

And I'm.. not.. adorable...

Can we settle for saucy?

[Shady314]

The Angry One wrote...
Ah, you're a dull kid. It's okay.

Just proving my point.

Yes. And? BioWare did not make the decision in either case.

Bioware may have made the decision due to outside interference but they still made the decision. It's not like the idea of it was so anathema to them they decided not to do the sequel. They didn't have a gun to their head. And I don't think they sit around ashamed of the fact that BG1 has a canon ending. So trying to argue they would never choose to make a canon ending if it were left solely up to them is silly.

That would depend entirely on the merits of the game itself.
It would still be ill-served by trampling over DAO and in-turn opening itself up to be trampled on by any further sequel.

How do you figure? It's less work for the devs which means more work in other areas. It may be very well served. We can't know. You're just speculating but stating it as fact. What a shock.
So you'll judge it based solely on its own merits except for how you'll hate it automatically because it may assume you made a choice in the first one you didn't... on one of your playthroughs anyways.

By making something "official" or "canon", that's exactly what's happening. If you don't want to see that, that's your problem.

How is it my PROBLEM? I'm not the one having an aneurysm. See a therapist. Others are not responsible for YOUR emotional well being. I'm serious.
A canon ending says what happened in the devs game. Not yours. What happened in your game happened in your game. Do you also flip out if you play the game multiple times and don't choose the same options and dialogue choices every time?

I was responding directly to your example, genius.
And no, a more apt analogy to this would be if Aliens had retconned Alien by saying it wasn't Ripley who survived after blowing up the spaceship, it was the captain guy with the beard.. even though we clearly saw him get eaten.

I know you were responding to my example. It just got very labored as I was writing. Comparing it to a movie is not a perfect analogy. But games are rather unique in this respect so it's hard to find a perfect one. 

It's got nothing to do with hating the games on their own merits, it has to do with the story imposing an arbitrary set of events that people may never have played through and telling them that's what happened.
That won't destroy the game, but it will ruin the plot to an extent.

It's not arbitrary. I don't think Bioware is flipping a coin to decide. Just because you may not like it does not make it bad, stupid, pointless or thoughtless.

It would not ruin the PLOT at all. This is the most ludicrous thing you've said thus far. Hell we choose the plot in the damn game. If anything that "ruins" it. You do know the plot is the pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama. I expect the MAIN story will remain unchanged. A Grey warden stopped a blight in Ferelden.

Modifié par Shady314, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[Wompdevil]

The Angry One wrote...

I don't know why Loghain fans want him to live after DA:O.
I have a hard time seeing him post-Blight as anything other than a bitter old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn while muttering "I did it all so those Orlesian bastards wouldn't take over!" under his breath.

And I'm.. not.. adorable...

Hmm, I thought you would like him since he really is "The Angry One" 

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I once dubbed her my enemy, she is not cute. I expected you to hit on anything with female parts (or elven ears), but I thought you had some standards, for shame.

How dare you, ser?!  My affections are not distributed without discrimination, I assure you!  I value the beauty that's on the inside, however hard it may be for a miscreant like you to perceive.  And strength of character, as well!

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[Ulicus]

The Angry One wrote...

Well it the method Obsidian used in KotOR2 worked well enough, only compromised by the game being rushed (well like everything else in KotOR2).

The only problem (as much as I appreciated the intent) was that it made all your K1 choices meaningless, because everything is more or less in the same state regardless of who Revan was or what he/she did.

I'd have been happier had they gone with a particular "light side / dark side" ending, even if they left everything else ambigious.

The Angry One wrote...
If Mass Effect 2 works as promised that might be the benchmark for future choice-based plot games.

Yeah, I'm interested to see how well BioWare can pull this off. Though the different endings in Mass Effect aren't quite so different as those in KotOR, so I imagine it won't feel quite so forced.

The Angry One wrote...

I've gone over that, and again I take a dim view of some second
rate comic book writer on Lucasfilm's employ telling me who I played
as. Revan is a character barely used in Star Wars EU anyway, and other
publications deliberately kept Revan vague. Presumably their authors
having more respect for gamers than the bozo who thought to impose his
vision on us.

Yeah, because Leland Chee of Lucas Licensing writes comic books....

Don't get me wrong, I was bummed that Revan was a dude too -- there haven't been any badass "movie style" female Sith Lords --- but don't go throwing blame on the wrong people.

Modifié par Ulicus, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I once dubbed her my enemy, she is not cute. I expected you to hit on anything with female parts (or elven ears), but I thought you had some standards, for shame.

How dare you, ser?!  My affections are not distributed without discrimination, I assure you!  I value the beauty that's on the inside, however hard it may be for a miscreant like you to perceive.  And strength of character, as well!

Strength of character and will being single, easy and/or drunk? You love more girls than Maric.

[Popemaster123]

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I once dubbed her my enemy, she is not cute. I expected you to hit on anything with female parts (or elven ears), but I thought you had some standards, for shame.

How dare you, ser?!  My affections are not distributed without discrimination, I assure you!  I value the beauty that's on the inside, however hard it may be for a miscreant like you to perceive.  And strength of character, as well!

Curelty is not strength it is a weakness.
It also shows that she is not the "Insert Witty Analogy here".

[The Angry One]

Shady314 wrote...

Just proving my point.

That you dismiss anything you don't agree with as a buzzword?

Bioware may have made the decision due to outside interference but they still made the decision. It's not like the idea of it was so anathema to them they decided not to do the sequel. They didn't have a gun to their head. And I don't think they sit around ashamed of the fact that BG1 has a canon ending. So trying to argue they would never choose to make a canon ending if it were left solely up to them is silly.

No, if the decision was made for them then they made no decision.
They can either go with it, or lose the IP, and at the time that would've been a bad idea.

How do you figure? It's less work for the devs which means more work in other areas. It may be very well served. We can't know. You're just speculating but stating it as fact. What a shock.

Ah I love this linear mode of thought where something ommited from a game allows more to be alloted elsewhere.

How is it my PROBLEM? I'm not the one having an aneurysm. See a therapist. Others are not responsible for YOUR emotional well being. I'm serious.

As far as debating goes, it appears to be..

A canon ending says what happened in the devs game. Not yours. What happened in your game happened in your game. Do you also flip out if you play the game multiple times and don't choose the same options and dialogue choices every time?

What I do in subsequent playthroughs is my *choice*, a past set in stone in a sequel would not be. See the difference?

It's not arbitrary. I don't think Bioware is flipping a coin to decide. Just because you may not like it does not make it bad, stupid, pointless or thoughtless.

BioWare did their level best to make each origin as valid as the next, and male and female characters as viable in the world and their role as each other. So yes, it would be arbitrary. There's absolutely nothing that says a human male noble makes a better plot than an elven female, or a male dwarf commoner, or whatever.

It would not ruin the PLOT at all. This is the most ludicrous thing you've said thus far. Hell we choose the plot in the damn game. If anything that "ruins" it. You do know the plot is the pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama. I expect the MAIN story will remain unchanged. A Grey warden stopped a blight in Ferelden.

It ruins it's integrity by imposing a set of details on us that are unecesarry and making it no longer feel so personal, which is what can be so unique about game plots.

[Chragen]

I'd expect that if the story is set within Morrigan and Alistairs lifetime then your PC char fathering Morrigans child along with Alistair becoming king makes the most sense.

Though I don't see how we could continue on with our old DA:O characters. Since we're really powerful by the end of DA:O so unless one were to use something cheesy like amnesia it would make what you did in DA:O feel really cheap.

But I at least have nothing against a new PC character. Though I wouldn't actually mind having less choices in origin/backstory if it meant more depth to the story and option to the side quests.

I'm still dying for a game that's the shear size of Baldur's Gate 2, but I guess that will never happen outside a subscription based game. Unless some really generous billionaire desides to personally fund the project   
 

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I once dubbed her my enemy, she is not cute. I expected you to hit on anything with female parts (or elven ears), but I thought you had some standards, for shame.

How dare you, ser?!  My affections are not distributed without discrimination, I assure you!  I value the beauty that's on the inside, however hard it may be for a miscreant like you to perceive.  And strength of character, as well!

Strength of character and will being single, easy and/or drunk? You love more girls than Maric.

*rambles incoherently*
*storms off*

*pokes head in*
Right back at you, buddy!

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:21 .

[Popemaster123]

Can we all agree to disagree?

No one is going to convince the others that they are right and frnakly my head is beginning to hurt from all the dotted lines. YOU BOTH HAVE VALID POINTS LET IT GO!

[The Angry One]

Ulicus wrote...
Yeah, because Leland Chee of Lucas Licensing writes comic books....

To be honest I'm not that familiar with the details, only that some dorkwit at Lucasfilm decided to make some sort of "canon" out of KotOR and ended up angering everybody, aside from some dimwitted fanboys.
Said dimwitted fanboys who seemed to crop up a lot wheneveer I would discuss KotOR playthroughs with my female Revan and say "duur don u kno Revan wuz a dude lol" are how I found out about this disgrace in the first place (I don't follow Star Wars EU).

[The Angry One]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Can we all agree to disagree?
No one is going to convince the others that they are right and frnakly my head is beginning to hurt from all the dotted lines. YOU BOTH HAVE VALID POINTS LET IT GO!

No.

[Taleroth]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Can we all agree to disagree?
No one is going to convince the others that they are right and frnakly my head is beginning to hurt from all the dotted lines. YOU BOTH HAVE VALID POINTS LET IT GO!

Some people enjoy the discourse.  Intellectual challenge and all that.

I'm more of a math guy in that regard.  Or Psychology.  Who wants to debate Psychology?

[Popemaster123]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]Ulicus wrote...
"duur don u kno Revan wuz a dude lol"
[/quote]
WTF?
ive seen some of these "fanboys/girls" and they actually speak pretty good english so.....Meh...

[The Angry One]

Psychology? Sure. I say Sigmund Freud was just a pervert who liked hearing about people's mothers. Discuss!

[Popemaster123]

Taleroth wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...

Can we all agree to disagree?
No one is going to convince the others that they are right and frnakly my head is beginning to hurt from all the dotted lines. YOU BOTH HAVE VALID POINTS LET IT GO!

Some people enjoy the discourse.  Intellectual challenge and all that.

I'm more of a math guy in that regard.  Or Psychology.  Who wants to debate Psychology?

Psychology i don't mind, and it depends on what im debating on how i think about it, when its pointless things about  a game that will be forgotten as soon as No.2 comes out or a next gen console yeh.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Psychology? Sure. I say Sigmund Freud was just a pervert who liked hearing about people's mothers. Discuss!

Not in this forum, off with ye if you're going to badmouth Freud.

[The Angry One]

[quote]Popemaster123 wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]Ulicus wrote...
"duur don u kno Revan wuz a dude lol"
[/quote]
WTF?
ive seen some of these "fanboys/girls" and they actually speak pretty good english so.....Meh...[/quote]

Well, you know, I'm paraphrasing. Perhaps to relate my view on your average hardcore Star Wars fan. They're worse than Trekkies, they are with their Boba Fetts and their evil Sith empire mark 53 and their Han shot first..
Well okay, Han did shoot first, I'll give them that.

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Psychology? Sure. I say Sigmund Freud was just a pervert who liked hearing about people's mothers. Discuss!

What's there to discuss.  It's true!

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Shady314]

The Angry One wrote...
That you dismiss anything you don't agree with as a buzzword?

Hey I'm not the one talking about how my immersion, suspension of disbelief and plot would all be ruined. LMAO!

No, if the decision was made for them then they made no decision.
They can either go with it, or lose the IP, and at the time that would've been a bad idea.

Yes you're right. Obviously this means Bioware will never make a canon ending if it's left up to them. Nope. Never. Because I can see the future and past events count for nothing because they were forced. Forced I say. 

Ah I love this linear mode of thought where something ommited from a game allows more to be alloted elsewhere.

Do you just use words you've seen somewhere before and hope you're using them right? Because it's not working.

As far as debating goes, it appears to be..

You flatter yourself. Debate indeed. I'm just humoring one of many whining forumites upset that something they don't like MIGHT happen.

What I do in subsequent playthroughs is my *choice*, a past set in stone in a sequel would not be. See the difference?

Oh yes I see now. If The Angry One does it then it is ok. If someone else does it then it's wrong. I understand perfectly.

BioWare did their level best to make each origin as valid as the next, and male and female characters as viable in the world and their role as each other. So yes, it would be arbitrary.

Sigh. As usual that word does not mean what you seem to think it means. Is English your second language?

There's absolutely nothing that says a human male noble makes a better plot than an elven female, or a male dwarf commoner, or whatever.

I agree. Who the hell said otherwise?

It ruins it's integrity by imposing a set of details on us that are unecesarry and making it no longer feel so personal, which is what can be so unique about game plots.

It's INTEGRITY. Are just messing with me?

Unless Bioware breaks into your home and alters your savegames the sequel CANNOT change what happened in your game. The game was not sold to you with the promise that your actions would affect their IP in all future installments. You got what you paid for. Whining that a sequel somehow changes the validity of what you did is insane. That you think your actions in a fictional gameworld MUST carry over and be taken into account because... (well why exactly I'm still not sure) is absurd.

[Popemaster123]

Lol i am a fairly strong SW fan but some people are a little OTT, but fair enough.But Han wouldnt of shot first if the imps hadnt shot at him on tattoine

[Aedan_Cousland]

If we end up with a canon ending at some point, I'd bet on...

Human Male Noble
Dark Ritual
Loghain executed
Alistair marries Anora

The rest I'm unsure of. Does the PC become to the next Duncan and spent his entire life hunting Darkspawn, or does he stay on in the Ferelden Court as Alistair's Chamberlain? Is Harrowmont or Bhelen the Dwarven King? I'm not sure whether Bioware would want to continue with the Dwarves in decline angle (Harrowmont), or instead go with a new golden age in Dwarven civilization. (Bhelen)

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:57 .

[Shady314]

Colenda wrote...

What's with the strawman? I never claimed canon ending would make DA2 better. I only pointed out that they HAD done it before. Angry One claimed they hadn't. So it is not outside the realm of possibility they'd do it again and this would not automatically be a bad thing anymore than it would be a good thing.

If they decide to do it like ME I'm not going to be complaining. That would be a very pleasant, very unexpected surprise.

So in fact, you would also prefer not to have your experience of DA overwritten? Like the vast majority of posters in this thread.

I think that dismissing the experience of individual players in the sequel would be automatically a bad thing (unless you're one of the lucky people who have their game made canon - I pretty much was in the carry over between NWN2 and NWN2 MotB, and it was great, but miserable for the people who found that their favourite characters had the axe brought down on them, and it spoiled their game). However, it's possible that the cloud could have a silver lining. That the canonization brings with it advantaged in constructing the story and world-building.

But personally, I can't imagine what those advantages could be - Bioware could just drop the cloud and keep the silver by leaving DAO ambiguous.

Yes shockingly I would PREFER the ideal circumstances. Imagine! I'm just realistic enough not to cry about it not happening.