295 réponses à ce sujet

[Squiggles1334]

I hope the next game doesn't take place in Orlais. Think of how much time and effort BioWare will have to spend on the models for hairstyles, dresses, and shoes!

[Lotion Soronarr]

You had the epilogues at the end. No matter what ending you had, the epilogues told you what happened next. This story ended.

You cna't really make a continuination of your chanracters adventures if it's said he died in the epilogue. Or if he went to travel the world with Leliana.. or she became quuen with Alistair as king and they ruled Ferelden pecaefully...Or something else.



You're coming to the point that no matter which of the canon ending you choose, you're getting s****** by the epilogues.

[bobsmyuncle]

Wolfva2 wrote...

The thing about Morigan's baby is...couldn't she have been pregnant before the ritual? I for one refused her on the ritual. I was damned if I'd let a baby do MY job, especially as it would be MY son. I couldn't do that to any baby much less flesh of my flesh. However, my character had been romancing Morigan quite a bit. I don't recall there being any scenes where I slipped on a Trojan Magnum first. Nor do I recall Morigan saying she was on the pill. So, even if you, like I, refused to do the ritual it is possible for Morrigan to have a baby in the sequel. Even if you were female, they could just say she seduced Alistair at some point.

It's possible for a male warden to have gotten her pregnant before the final battle, but in that case she's just knocked up with a regular baby.

Also, seducing Alistair? It is to lol. Even if you think "hey moron!" is a catcall, Alistair is too much of a Chantry boy to hit it and quit it.

[bobsmyuncle]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

I hope the next game doesn't take place in Orlais. Think of how much time and effort BioWare will have to spend on the models for hairstyles, dresses, and shoes!

Imagine the new rune upgrades. +1 to style!

[Mithrildream]

Somehow I just don't see this story continuing in DA 2 with my character dead unless the end of DA:Origins happened in The Fade.

[FedericoV]

David Gaider wrote...

Malsumis wrote...
Bioware ignores all the fan rants/wants/desires and does what's best for the sequels story. Which is what they will do. Why? Because they are a professional company here to make money, not to provide fan service to the few hundred militant fans that post here.

We enjoy fan service. Really, keeping the audience that we gained the first time invested in the series is a bit of a no-brainer, no? My only unease comes from the idea that some people seem to think that fan service entails taking their singular experience and making that the entire focus of whatever story is to come -- and that failing to do so is discounting their experience completely. That makes me nervous, but again I think it hearkens back to the emotional investment I spoke of earlier. It's like the people that were so invested in the BG series that they couldn't see past it when we started talking about DA initially.

That's what you get when you establish a benchmark, I suppose.

Provocation: cut romances from DA 2 and you will have half of the complaints.

Romances are great but too many players invest too much emotionally in them. It's not healthy: most of the discussion about canon ending relate to the romance and the Morrigain plotline. Otherwise: you could make DA2 as a fantasy dating sim with Alistair and Morrigain, since tha'ts what a lot of player seem to want. Pretty sure you would make more money :happy:.

[IlaraTam]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

I hope the next game doesn't take place in Orlais. Think of how much time and effort BioWare will have to spend on the models for hairstyles, dresses, and shoes!

Imagine the new rune upgrades. +1 to style!

You can use them to get new powers and unlock new classes and specializations! ...Oh wait, sorry, wrong game.

I'd be...intrigued by a hairstyle model with birds in it, however.

[Squiggles1334]

I, for one, *don't* want birds in my hair if Shale's around.

[philippe willaume]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SinYang wrote...

well at lest you did not go for your boat sank and you ended up in knikers on the beach...

Hey thats an excellent idea  Bioware hire him.

A guy from obsidian?

 

Close enough, I work in data integration you know Cobol, c++ with or without SQL, copybook and systable and all that. I work in support hence the medieval fencing and jousting....

It is not even an original idea, 20 year ago we played a scenario that was basically the hunt of count Zaroff in a medieval fantasy setting. we were using the rules of a French rpg call legende.
Basically the intro was pirates sink your ship you end up in the island in knickers.

The problem was that the intro took 16 hours (2 sessions), you see when none of the PC can swim, we were very creative not to let the boat sink…..
 phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[philippe willaume]

Mithrildream wrote...

Somehow I just don't see this story continuing in DA 2 with my character dead unless the end of DA:Origins happened in The Fade.

You know it does not have to be a continuation or no link what so ever.

we can see that some peole are keen on both.

It can offer both options and you choose which way to go.
you can get all about the old story and what you need for the new in about 10 questions 

That in itself can be the origine story for that creation line (just like we had the human noble, city elf and all that) and a side quest to learn about during the game , if you just want it as a background.

That gives you the option to

1) play old char +romance

2) just have the old story as a back ground with a brand new char

3) compltly ignore it and treat it as a new game.


phil

[Korva]

Continuity is one of my two big points too. With retconned canon there is no continuity, it has to be established in any given product itself and not afterwards.

And yes, the fact that Larian declared the Divine One was a man was one reason for my decision not to bother with Beyond Divinity or Ego Draconis. Not the only one, but it did play a part. (Other reasons included the fact that I simply didn't find Divinity gripping enough to spend more money on the franchise, and not liking what I read about various features in the sequels.) Maybe some people think it's pathetic, that's fine. We all care about different things.

David Gaider wrote...

My only unease comes from the idea that some people seem to think that fan service entails taking their singular experience and making that the entire focus of whatever story is to come -- and that failing to do so is discounting their experience completely.

Well, I for one have never said that. And I have said more than once that I don't want my own version of what "really" happens in this game to be canon for anyone else -- because it is only my story, and it isn't worth any more or any less than the stories the posters above and below me played.

Nor do I want this story to be the focus of every other product in the franchise. I'd be perfectly happy if Dragon Age: The Sequel ...

a) made no reference to the events of Origins at all.
made only passing references without going into detail (a Grey Warden defeated a Blight in Ferelden and ended a civil war).
c) made only passing references to details provided by the player (via save game import, in-game Q&A, or whatever), with a "default but not canon" version of events provided for those who haven't played DA:O or want to start fresh.

But if the sequel is based on or otherwise declares that, say, the protagonist was a man and had that monster spawn with Morrigan, then yes, I would very annoyed and not interested.

Squiggles1334 wrote...

The PC managed to navigate Dwarven and Denarim politics, unite Fereldan, and lay the smackdown on an archdemon, ending an entire blight. That's a pretty impressive resume. In fact, one that killed off a number of PCs in an act of self-sacrifice. That's an epic lifetime achievement with its own epilogue, I'd have a hard time dragging that same PC out for another full length adventure, especially if it meant retconning a major decision many players (myself included) made in the first game, making the impact of the ending feel cheap and meaningless.

This is another very good point, about the "epic lifetime achievement" which would be very hard to follow up with a new story (even if the PC isn't dead).

Modifié par Korva, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[FedericoV]

Korva wrote...


Nor do I want this story to be the focus of every other product in the franchise. I'd be perfectly happy if Dragon Age: The Sequel ...

a) made no reference to the events of Origins at all.
made only passing references without going into detail (a Grey Warden defeated a Blight in Ferelden and ended a civil war).
c) made only passing references to details provided by the player (via save game import, in-game Q&A, or whatever), with a "default but not canon" version of events provided for those who haven't played DA:O or want to start fresh.

But if the sequel is based on or otherwise declares that, say, the protagonist was a man and had that monster spawn with Morrigan, then yes, I would very annoyed and not interested.

Honestly, I think that that kind of position is quite absurd and feels a little bit childish.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your opinion the only way to remember DA:O as a meaningfull experience is to turn all the story of the first game in something meaningless for the sequel.

The only other option you consider is that the sequel should consider *ALL* your choices during the game. Otherwise, you won't buy the sequel...

No middle ground? No compromise?

DA:O has something like 250 possible endings (I could be mistaken but more or less that's so). It's impossible to cover all those choice. But to discard all the story/setting of the 4th blight from the sequel would be a waste.

Don't you see that the Morrigain/Baby Demon storyline is too good to be discarded and not closed? It's not necessary that's THE story of DA2, but it's great material and a clousure would be fine.

The fathership of the baby demon could be handled in many ways that do not hurt female players sensibility.

In general, I only hope that the writers will choose the option that helps to tell the better story and not because of fan base pressure, whatwever the choice is.

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 décembre 2009 - 11:06 .

[Psycoman2]

I really want to hunt down Morrigan and my god baby, but the truth is that this game was just not designed for a direct sequel. Too many potential endings, most of which place your character in a non adventurous role for the foreseeable future.

Though with that said i be believe that the dark ritual will be the cannon ending in a very non specific way. There is just too much potential in a human with the soul of an old god for it to never be expanded upon.

Modifié par Psycoman2, 17 décembre 2009 - 11:09 .

[Korva]

FedericoV wrote...

Honestly, I think that that kind of position is quite absurd and feels a little bit childish.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your opinion the only way to remember DA:O as a meaningfull experience is to turn all the story of the first game in something meaningless for the sequel.

*sigh*

First, people who take my stance are told we demand our singular experience MUST be the focus on everything to come. Then we're told we want the whole experience of the first game to become meaningless. Both are totally wrong and not what we are saying at all, thank you very much. I listed these three possibilities only to clarify (and not for the first time) that saying "player choice should not be ignored" does NOT mean "DA2 must be all about what happened in DA:O". A sequel that fully builds on the first game could be great too, but damn hard to do with all the variables to consider.

Is it so impossible to understand that for some people it is extremely off-putting to be given the a choice in game #1 and then game #2 retroactively establishes a "canon" and "continuity" which has nothing to do with our experience, as if these choices never existed?

No middle ground? No compromise?

I'd thank you not to put words into my mouth.

And where is the "middle ground" and "compromise" with retroactively established canon which ignores all the other choices people were given?

Don't you see that the Morrigain/Baby Demon storyline is too good to be discarded and not closed? It's not necessary that's THE story of DA2, but it's great material and a clousure would be fine.

That is your opinion. What makes it worth more than the opinion of those who disagree? If you think Morrigan and her demonspawn are so awesome, fine, but please don't try to tell others that we must think the same. I would be happy for people like you if there is a sideplot in DA2 about Morrigan and her spawn that gives you the closure you want. I just don't want it forced on me as canon about what happened in this game when I play DA2. That is all. And it is what I and others have tried to say before. We don't begrudge anyone the choices they make, or say they should be ignored because our choices are "obviously" superior.

Also, when canon is retroactively established, there will always be those who happen to like that new canon and
lord it over those "stupid" people who "dared" to play different i.e. "wrong". It has happened before (two words: "male Revan"). That is not the fault of the developers, but it is one of the reasons that can make us "stupid" people who "play it wrong" quite ... wary of retconning, and tired of being bashed for "going against canon" when that canon didn't exist yet.

The fathership of the baby demon could be handled in many ways that do not hurt female players sensibility.

How can it be handled in a way that does not "hurt the sensibility" of those who ended the Blight the old-fashioned way, and wanted nothing to do with the ritual in the first place?

Modifié par Korva, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .

[FedericoV]

Korva wrote...

Is it so impossible to understand that for some people it is extremely
off-putting to be given the a choice in game #1 and then game #2
retroactively establishes a "canon" and "continuity" which has nothing
to do with our experience, as if these choices never existed?

I understand even if I do not feel the same.
For me the canonical Warden could be a female rogue dwarf who has sided
with werewolf, templars and Belhen/Branka, that has choosen to kill Eamon's
son and to destroy the urn of sacred ashes and that has sacrificed herself in the ending, and it would not change my enjoyement of DA2 (if DA2 story is at the
same level of DA:O, off course).

I'm only saying that I do not
understand those position to the point of saying "I wont' play DA2"
because of that. I don't know, those kind of things are in the
nature of pen & paper's RPG storytelling. When a new edition is
released a new canon is estabilished and no one ask to the developer to
consider their personal games in the new setting...

And where is the "middle ground" and "compromise" with retroactively established canon which ignores all the other choices people were given?

For example, a single canon ending about the various places of the major quests (I mean Brecilian, Orzamar, Redcliffe, Urn of Sacred Ashes and Mage Tower), Loghain and Flemeth canonically killed by The Warden, and a two/three possible beginnings for each sex about the dark ritual/sacrifice and about the king/queen of Ferelden. A new charachter off course. In that way only the players who has chosen the dark ritual would be forced to play the Morrigain/Baby Demon storyline.

That is your opinion. What makes it worth more than the opinion of those who disagree?

Numbers?

If you think Morrigan and her demonspawn are so awesome, fine, but please don't try to tell others that we must think the same. I would be happy for people like you if there is a sideplot in DA2 about Morrigan and her spawn that gives you the closure you want. I just don't want it forced on me as canon about what happened in this game when I play DA2. That is all. And it is what I and others have tried to say before. We don't begrudge anyone the choices they make, or say they should be ignored because our choices are "obviously" superior.

The point is not that it's obviously superior. The point is that it's the only cliffhanger ending of the game, the only storyline that it's open ended and that should be closed. Because unresolved cliffhangers are forms of bad storytelling in my book.

Also, when canon is retroactively established, there will always be those who happen to like that new canon and
lord it over those "stupid" people who "dared" to play different i.e. "wrong". It has happened before (two words: "male Revan"). That is not the fault of the developers, but it is one of the reasons that can make us "stupid" people who "play it wrong" quite ... wary of retconning, and tired of being bashed for "going against canon" when that canon didn't exist yet.

Those person are stupid and you should not care about them . There is no way to play "wrongly" an RPG so riddled with choices and consequences like DA:O. That's not the point of a canon. The point should be to help building the foundation of the sequel's story.

How can it be handled in a way that does not "hurt the sensibility" of those who ended the Blight the old-fashioned way, and wanted nothing to do with the ritual in the first place?

A stupid example: the baby is Flemeth because Flemeth demon was an old god.

The father is Alistair/Riordan/Duncan, wathever.

Modifié par FedericoV, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Kreid]

I think there should definitely be a canon ending for the sake of continuity, the race of the PC doesn't really matter as it can simply be adressed as "The Warden" or "The hero of Ferelden" but I, personally, like the Morrigan plot and so my personal preference for a canon should be a male Warden which is the father of Morrigan's child.



Honestly, there are ways to be as vage as possible in regards to the events of DA:O to try not pissing people but I really hope Bioware takes a step forward and sets a definite canon, no matter how pissed people gets (I include myself here) since a game with such a magnificent lore should have extremely important events like a Blight and it's consecuences in the world well set.

[Loregothe]

Don't know what will be canon, and I didn't read all 9 pages of posts, so if others have my same opinion, great..



I would personally like to see,



Allister on throne with Anora

PC Alive due to Dark Ritual, even if they did not KNOW it was going to happen.

Continuation of character, not starting over at level 1.

Morrigan returns after she finds out she created a problem (via the ritual) and helps defeat it.

Some of your companions stay, some new ones introduced.

Would be most interested in a scenario where the Tevinter coops the ritual, Morrigan barely escapes, and the new adventure takes place in the north.



If I was writing it, that is how it would go.

[Ravauviel]

Korva wrote...

I'd be perfectly happy if Dragon Age: The Sequel ...

a) made no reference to the events of Origins at all.
made only passing references without going into detail (a Grey Warden defeated a Blight in Ferelden and ended a civil war).
c) made only passing references to details provided by the player (via save game import, in-game Q&A, or whatever), with a "default but not canon" version of events provided for those who haven't played DA:O or want to start fresh.

But if the sequel is based on or otherwise declares that, say, the protagonist was a man and had that monster spawn with Morrigan, then yes, I would very annoyed and not interested.

This! 

[Kreid]

Colenda wrote

I think that can be done quite easily. Morrigan just needs a Grey Warden to sleep with her - any Grey Warden, as long they've gone through the ritual fairly recently. It doesn't even have to have been one of the three in game candidates. Someone else might have survived Ostagar. It would be quite easy for the devs to blur the circumstances in which Morrigan conceived her demon baby. If we're playing as a new character in DA2, Morrigan's a stranger, and she isn't obliged to sit the PC down and tell them her life story. Appearance-wise, the baby could look other-worldly, non-human or take after its mother; so there's no Theirrin blond hair or black hair with an aquiline nose to give the father away.

Other than that, I agree with you.

It's not so easy, no matter who the father is, Morrigan needs to be near the Archdemon when it dies, and since it's essence goes to the child, no Grey warden dies so if there's dark ritual the Grey Wardens live.

I respect everyone's opinion, and everybody is entitled to them but whether you like Morrigan or not, it's pretty clear the dark ritual is the most interesting plot that could carry over (not to say the only one, again this is a matter of personal preference but it is obviously important to the story, important enough too to have most of Morrigan's development thrown out of the window by the end of the game for it's sake), coupled with the fact that Bioware said it isn't the last we're going to see about her and most of the community agreeing of wanting to know about the old god child I'd say it's the most logical  way to continue the story.

I understand there's people that simply don't like/care/agree with Morrigan and they don't even want her back, but there's also people who likes her and wants to follow this plot line which is honestly the most interesting one or at least the only  trace of DA:O that would potentially carry over into the next entry of the series, so I think that everybody should ask themselves whether they like to be stubborn into their own storyline no matter how much they like it or allowing Bioware to work with the plot that has more potential to write a good story.

[twincast]

Since several months before release I've been convinced that we'll only get vague references of what happened in Ferelden with the sequel being set in some other country with a fresh bunch of new PC origins to start with. Some people seriously need to get the fixed idea of it being like ME out of their heads.

And I seriously hope for no Blight in the second game. A Tevinter PC defeating a Qunari force sounds good. Or maybe Orlais having to defend itself against something coming over the mountains in the west.

After having played the game I'd say "Warden defeated a Blight against all odds" and "King died, but they got a new one" is all that's needed. Morrigan's kid is a major thread dangling around all loose and stuff, though. So, to take a canon ending that would include it and have the highest likelihood of happening, I'd go for: undefined Warden saved Ferelden, Alistair and Anora rule together, Alistair (or maybe Loghain) fathered Morrigan's child. All the other decisions don't really affect anyone outside Ferelden (much, at least).

My main(<-) took the Dark Ritual and went off to train young Wardens together with Zevran, which is all fine and dandy, but the epilogue telling me that he's had more adventures that will be told some other time had me taken a bit aback. For the time being I'll just disregard it as an empty set phrase of heroic storytelling. I seriously don't believe in carrying over the character as your PC, 'though he/she may get a cameo appearance or maybe even a mentor-esque spot on your party. I wonder though how dialogue would work around the fact he/she doesn't have a set name. I suppose if there's no other Grey Warden in your party you could simply continue calling them Warden, but they'd still need a voice actor, which kind of defeats the reasoning behind not giving the PC's voiced dialogue this time around (and presumably in future DA games). Well, based on SW:TOR I actually kind of hope that DA2 will be fully voiced.


As for SW:KotOR: Coincidentally I actually played a light-side male Revan and light-side female Exile, so I kind of got lucky concerning the canon endings, but while I can understand feeling kinda bummed if the official version doesn't line up with your dear (main) char, feeling as heated about it as some here apparently do just seems mighty unhealthy to me.

Mary Kirby wrote...

What if we had this kind of canon ending?

Well, I've said it before: I'd kill for a DA (or ME) musical in the vein of Buffy's OMWF, but I realize the likelihood of that happening approaches zero.
Anyway, funny guy.

Modifié par twincast, 17 décembre 2009 - 02:08 .

[MiG-77]

Creid-X wrote...


It's not so easy, no matter who the father is, Morrigan needs to be near the Archdemon when it dies, and since it's essence goes to the child, no Grey warden dies so if there's dark ritual the Grey Wardens live.

Actually it is easy. We dont know where Morrigan was when Archdemon died and also death of "slayer" gray warden can be explained by that huge explosion it created ("normal" death). 

[SeanMurphy2]

It depends what the god child turns out to be.

If it is some dangerous evil thing. Then it makes the cannon DA1 character less of a hero. He ends the Blight but causes an equally dangerous DA2 problem because he wanted to avoid dying.

I cannot grasp what possible ideas Bioware had when they wrote it. What does a witch do with a god child? Does Morrigan want more magical power? Does she want to conquer a nation? Or is this some anti chantry scheme?

I never understood Flemeth's and Morrgan's long term ambitions. Flemeth seemed happy living in a swamp, having a pretty body, learning powerful magic and the fun of luring young men. Morrigan is curious about the world and likes power.

[Kohaku]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I never understood Flemeth's and Morrgan's long term ambitions. Flemeth seemed happy living in a swamp, having a pretty body, learning powerful magic and the fun of luring young men. Morrigan is curious about the world and likes power.

Me either. It's what struck me as odd with the both of them. Flemeth tells Morrigan that she will go with the Gray Warden because it's what she HAS to do. So if the PC/Alistair/Loghain turn down her dark ritual, she's essentially failed her mission. Then this brings up why was she going through with it anyway? Does she not ask you to off Flemeth? If you do or lie to her she has no reason to carry on with anything Flemeth says previously.

[FedericoV]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I cannot grasp what possible ideas Bioware had when they wrote it. What does a witch do with a god child? Does Morrigan want more magical power? Does she want to conquer a nation? Or is this some anti chantry scheme?

I may be wrong but in the dialogue before the dark ritual Morrigain speaks about the child as a symbol of the liberation of mages from the grasp of the chantry.