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[TheClonesLegacy]

DocGriffin wrote...

jojon2se wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...
5401 EMS
Picked Destroy
Have EC
Didn't get it
Debunked.
So don't say I was Misinformed

I am pretty sure you can't have that much EMS without any of the extra-SP resources.
Sure you don't mean 5401 TMS?

Correct, the number he's referring to is his total military strength, not EMS, or effective military strength.

He would have to have a readiness rating of at least 58% to get 3100

I don't know anymore, Now I'm just being Reminded of a PokeyManz Tournament I was Dragged to and had to listen to a bunch of Nerds argue over Stats.

[DocGriffin]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...


And how is synthesis lying to you?  He tells you what is does and it does exactly what he said it does.  Your cycles wins, he wins, everyone wins (even you do though you are dead).  

You wouldn't know that beforehand, and actually, sysnthesis seems like the only choice you can tell he agrees with.

You know that because of what I said before.  You are going in a circular thought process that is rejecting logic at every point of the circumference.  

- Circular logic rejection

That's my cue to abandon thread!

[silentassassin264]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

You are indoctrinated.  I never believed in the IT myself but lo and behold, there genuine proof of its existence.  The Reapers want to keep on Reaping and you just tell them okay and let up them keep going.  

That sentence alone ruins your whole argument, also, he's not letting them keep reapers, he continued to fight, how is that letting them keep going?

You have no chance to win if you fight without the crucible and you know that.  Picking reject and losing and letting the cycle continue.  He knows that and instead a spouting Illusive Man speech about how it is the only morally right option when you know straight up you can pick destroy and end the cycle only sacrificing the Geth and EDI.  He is advocating sacrificing everyone to Reapers because it is the right thing to do.  That is insane.

[SMichelle]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

You mean like life?   NO ONE you know is around to appreciate your fine principles.  They are worse than dead - because of your choice.  Ask them if they would rather be a Reaper or be alive.  MY Shepard is willing to pay the price for organics to live.  If yours is not, that is fine for you.  However your choice is no more "clean" than any other.


(GAH!  didn't I just point out the definition of insanity, and yet I keep trying to get the Rejectors to admit they their choice is just as bad as any other.  That's it, I'm obviously insane.  )


Edit:  and King Leonidas didn't kill all advanced life!  If he did...well no one would be around to ask him about it I guess...so...well then I guess it's okay

Modifié par SMichelle, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

You are indoctrinated.  I never believed in the IT myself but lo and behold, there genuine proof of its existence.  The Reapers want to keep on Reaping and you just tell them okay and let up them keep going.  

That sentence alone ruins your whole argument, also, he's not letting them keep reapers, he continued to fight, how is that letting them keep going?

You have no chance to win if you fight without the crucible and you know that.  Picking reject and losing and letting the cycle continue.  He knows that and instead a spouting Illusive Man speech about how it is the only morally right option when you know straight up you can pick destroy and end the cycle only sacrificing the Geth and EDI.  He is advocating sacrificing everyone to Reapers because it is the right thing to do.  That is insane.

Again, you trust your enemies for no reason, I am waiting for you to provide me one.
Also, I'm not letting everyone die, we're fighting Reapers.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...
The point is to try, even when you know that your actions won't make an impact.

Bingo. That's why my Shep chose fight to the death. Even knowing that win is most likely impossible.

And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Well my renedouche would say if they had listened to his warnings in the first damn place they wouldn't have to rely on him so tough cookies. They'll have to deal with it. He's the one who went through all that s*** and if he's had enough well sucks for them. They should've gotten to the beam first or dragged themselves there. (That is my selfish F this I'm done renedouche though). He gets refuse by shooting starbrat in the face. He's tired he's sick of it all and he's done. The Catalyst is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[Wulfram]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

Except Leonidas didn't kill everyone.  If he had, I would question his actions.  As it was, he helped win the war, at the cost of a small portion of Sparta's forces.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[ghost9191]

control and destroy are the options of the crucible, only one that the catalyst has influence on is synthesis. because "he" is needed to make it happen.

even if when you get up to that room , if the catalyst wasn't there you would still have the destroy and control options. they are what the crucible was designed for.

you can through talking to the catalyst tell that it clearly favors synthesis, it doesn't lose control of the reapers that way and it doesn't "die"

not sure if it is lying or not, but hey 50/50 chance you stop the reapers whereas if you reject that is 100% chance of fail and committing genocide on 14 species. and before you say it is not your intention to kill them, well it is not my intention to kill the geth in destroy, only the reapers. Like ppl say the catalyst may be lying so how do i know if the geth will die.

and yeah the next cycle might win but does that matter to the current cycles dead or those being turned into goo?

Modifié par ghost9191, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:57 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

SMichelle wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

You mean like life?   NO ONE you know is around to appreciate your fine principles.  They are worse than dead - because of your choice.  Ask them if they would rather be a Reaper or be alive.  MY Shepard is willing to pay the price for organics to live.  If yours is not, that is fine for you.  However your choice is no more "clean" than any other.


(GAH!  didn't I just point out the definition of insanity, and yet I keep trying to get the Rejectors to admit they their choice is just as bad as any other.  That's it, I'm obviously insane.  )

I respect what your saying but this is what bugs me, people see the worst in refusal. They automatically assume that everyone is dead, that they didn't put up a fight and diminished the Reapers numbers by a lot, that some didn't survive till the next cycle. I know in a way it headcannoing, but it's naive to think none of those things happen, and we allowed the next cycle to win.

[silentassassin264]

Fandango9641 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Reject is the only morally conscionable choice on offer for sure. That it's a choice that results in the death of everything we fought to protect across 3 games is an indication of how badly Mac and Casey wanted to give those who rejected their original 3 colour conclusion the finger, nothing more. In any case, reject is the ony choice that respects the basic, inalienable rights of all life in the galaxy.

You are indoctrinated.  I never believed in the IT myself but lo and behold, there genuine proof of its existence.  The Reapers want to keep on Reaping and you just tell them okay and let up them keep going.  

Reject means reject smarty pants. What did you choose?

I picked all of the colors with various Shepards for various reasons.

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I'm talking about when you meet the catalyst, you have absolutely no reason or basis to belief why he's telling the truth, if you can support me with a reason, then we can have a conversation.

 

silentassassin264 wrote...

The catalyst is not lying to you nor is there a chance he is lying to you.  If the Catalyst was trying to kill you, after you go up the elevator thing he would have introduced himself and when you asked if he could stop the Reapers, he would laugh at you and tell you where you could shove your gun.  He has no obligation to end the cycle and help you but he does anyway.  What does he have to gain by lying to you?  Watching you die in 3 unique and creative ways instead of bleeding and starving to death on the Citadel?  He holds all the cards and still offers you a chance.  If you do not believe him you are willfully insane.

 

You picked the reject ending.  You know he can just turn the crucible off and be done with you.  He has no reason to lie.  There is no rational way to come to a conclusion that he is lying. 

[DEATHSCOPE]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

If the Spartans had something that could defeat the Persians, I think Leonidas would've sure as hell used it, instead of saying, "No, we don't need it. One of our men might die, I don't want to sacrifice him, even if it might save all of us."

And you know what's important? Lives are important. Survival is what we are all striving for.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Wulfram wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

Except Leonidas didn't kill everyone.  If he had, I would question his actions.  As it was, he helped win the war.

According to the logic of destroyers he did, because he didn't surrender. Therefore kept fighting and died.

[ghost9191]

@SMichelle

Aren't we all a little insane?

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

SMichelle wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

You mean like life?   NO ONE you know is around to appreciate your fine principles.  They are worse than dead - because of your choice. 

Yes, it was a difficult choice. But I've decided its still the best choice.

Ask them if they would rather be a Reaper or be alive.

Would be nice if starbrat would allow that. In fact I'd pretty much prefer to ask him "you claim you control a Reapers, we have no hope to win, etc, etc. So how about we made a ceasefire long enough to actually ask the galactic populace what solution they would prefer? And you always could go back to reaping if it doesn't work out".
I am not convinced what choice united galaxy would make. To allow somebody to take control of Reapers, to alter everything or to kill their allies. Or to fight to the death.

 MY Shepard is willing to pay the price for organics to live.  If yours is not, that is fine for you.  However your choice is no more "clean" than any other.

It's more clean in my mind, that all that matters. Because I made this choice and don't want to feel bad aftertaste.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

If the Spartans had something that could defeat the Persians, I think Leonidas would've sure as hell used it, instead of saying, "No, we don't need it. One of our men might die, I don't want to sacrifice him, even if it might save all of us."

And you know what's important? Lives are important. Survival is what we are all striving for.

They did, they could have opt out, and I'm sure Leonidas would have still went down fighting, the same Shepard could have opt out by ending conflict but not on his terms.

[DEATHSCOPE]

ghost9191 wrote...

@SMichelle

Aren't we all a little insane?

I go to work everyday. I must be insane. 

[DEATHSCOPE]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

If the Spartans had something that could defeat the Persians, I think Leonidas would've sure as hell used it, instead of saying, "No, we don't need it. One of our men might die, I don't want to sacrifice him, even if it might save all of us."

And you know what's important? Lives are important. Survival is what we are all striving for.

They did, they could have opt out, and I'm sure Leonidas would have still went down fighting, the same Shepard could have opt out by ending conflict but not on his terms.

Hold that thought. The girlfriend wants to go to Costco. Be right back. <_<

[Khajiit Jzargo]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Reject is the only morally conscionable choice on offer for sure. That it's a choice that results in the death of everything we fought to protect across 3 games is an indication of how badly Mac and Casey wanted to give those who rejected their original 3 colour conclusion the finger, nothing more. In any case, reject is the ony choice that respects the basic, inalienable rights of all life in the galaxy.

You are indoctrinated.  I never believed in the IT myself but lo and behold, there genuine proof of its existence.  The Reapers want to keep on Reaping and you just tell them okay and let up them keep going.  

Reject means reject smarty pants. What did you choose?

I picked all of the colors with various Shepards for various reasons.

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I'm talking about when you meet the catalyst, you have absolutely no reason or basis to belief why he's telling the truth, if you can support me with a reason, then we can have a conversation.

 

silentassassin264 wrote...

The catalyst is not lying to you nor is there a chance he is lying to you.  If the Catalyst was trying to kill you, after you go up the elevator thing he would have introduced himself and when you asked if he could stop the Reapers, he would laugh at you and tell you where you could shove your gun.  He has no obligation to end the cycle and help you but he does anyway.  What does he have to gain by lying to you?  Watching you die in 3 unique and creative ways instead of bleeding and starving to death on the Citadel?  He holds all the cards and still offers you a chance.  If you do not believe him you are willfully insane.

 

You picked the reject ending.  You know he can just turn the crucible off and be done with you.  He has no reason to lie.  There is no rational way to come to a conclusion that he is lying. 

Actually. 

They aren't winning. You're on the crucible standing in the control room of a machine with the power to wipe out the entire reaper fleet. Dismantle the plan of the Catalyst entirely, perhaps even destroy the very galaxy if used improperly.

The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

That is absurd.

Taken.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .

[SMichelle]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

 I respect what your saying but this is what bugs me, people see the worst in refusal. They automatically assume that everyone is dead, that they didn't put up a fight and diminished the Reapers numbers by a lot, that some didn't survive till the next cycle. I know in a way it headcannoing, but it's naive to think none of those things happen, and we allowed the next cycle to win.

OMG!  Can we finally have come to an understanding?  I think Reject is bad, I think Control is bad, I think Synthesis is bad and I think Destroy is bad.  For my Shepard it was simply choosing what she thought was the least bad choice.

*GROUP HUG for everyone that believed all choices presented sucked* 

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

SMichelle wrote...
And that would be fine - laudable even - if it was only Shepard.  But you made everyone else pay the same price.  They were depending on you to save them from the Reapers.  Instead you turned them into Reapers.

Don't you realize how silly it sounds? 
It's like telling Leonidas "You killed everyone. You should've accepted one of Xerxes terms and saved them, instead of this stupid last stand which achieved nothing, except feeding your stupid moral high grounds". You think survival comes first. I think survival is pointless if we lose something important in the process.

If the Spartans had something that could defeat the Persians, I think Leonidas would've sure as hell used it, instead of saying, "No, we don't need it. One of our men might die, I don't want to sacrifice him, even if it might save all of us."

And you know what's important? Lives are important. Survival is what we are all striving for.

All Spartans have to do to survive is to merge into Persian culture (be declared "friend of Persia" etc, etc). All of these things could be counsidered little more than matters of personal beliefs. But they abhorred this choice.
Again, I say, not everybody is hell-bent on survival. Strange it may seem to you.

[jojon2se]

SMichelle wrote...
...
...and yet I keep trying to get the Rejectors to admit they their choice is just as bad as any other. 
...

I see nobody denying it. It's a choice between four bads - I believe everybody are clear on that.
Every choice has Shepard sacrificing others than him/herself, either directly, or by extension.

Time for bed...
May the four peaks of self righteousness come tumbling down and herald an age of humilty and mutual respect.

[s17tabris]

For those who argue that choosing reject means that Shepard knowingly chose to lose, maybe Shepard suddenly gained precognition and was able to know beforehand that what starbrat said will really happen.

Without that precognition, there was no way of telling if jumping into the beam will actually cause space magic synthesis (or just kill Shepard without doing anything else), or if touching those electric thingies will actually enable Shepard to control the reapers (or just kill Shepard without doing anything else), or if shooting the tube will actually destroy the reapers (or just kill Shepard without doing anything else).

[Khajiit Jzargo]

SMichelle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

 I respect what your saying but this is what bugs me, people see the worst in refusal. They automatically assume that everyone is dead, that they didn't put up a fight and diminished the Reapers numbers by a lot, that some didn't survive till the next cycle. I know in a way it headcannoing, but it's naive to think none of those things happen, and we allowed the next cycle to win.

OMG!  Can we finally have come to an understanding?  I think Reject is bad, I think Control is bad, I think Synthesis is bad and I think Destroy is bad.  For my Shepard it was simply choosing what she thought was the least bad choice.

*GROUP HUG for everyone that believed all choices presented sucked* 

Sure we can.

*GROUP HUG* 

But everytime time someone bashes another ending, especially the one I choose, I have to argue back. I know it just keeps the cycle going, but it's just who I am, and I doubt this fighting will end anytime soon 

But I do agree every ending has some bad in them and can be justified depending on how the player sees it, and what Bioware has succesfully done is manage to split the fanbase in half instead of providing a decent ending.

[Sousabird]

silentassassin264 wrote...

No you don't win. You lose, you die, and you kill everyone else in your cycle because you are to arrogant and proud to accept a victory condition that wasn't completely to your liking.

[Ryzaki]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

 I respect what your saying but this is what bugs me, people see the worst in refusal. They automatically assume that everyone is dead, that they didn't put up a fight and diminished the Reapers numbers by a lot, that some didn't survive till the next cycle. I know in a way it headcannoing, but it's naive to think none of those things happen, and we allowed the next cycle to win.

OMG!  Can we finally have come to an understanding?  I think Reject is bad, I think Control is bad, I think Synthesis is bad and I think Destroy is bad.  For my Shepard it was simply choosing what she thought was the least bad choice.

*GROUP HUG for everyone that believed all choices presented sucked* 

Sure we can.

*GROUP HUG* 

But everytime time someone bashes another ending, especially the one I choose, I have to argue back. I know it just keeps the cycle going, but it's just who I am, and I doubt this fighting will end anytime soon 

But I do agree every ending has some bad in them and can be justified depending on how the player sees it, and what Bioware has succesfully done is manage to split the fanbase in half instead of providing a decent ending.

Speculations!

*gags*

*gets in on hugs*