106 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

I don't think anyone can really answer that for everyone. I know that if DA3 is horrible(like DA2 IMO), then I probably will be very reluctant to buy another BW product. I'd bet that DA3 could drive away at least one group of customers, but I(and no one else) can be sure until release.

[Baronesa]

It is something to ponder, and I do think the situation is dire, the scrutiny will be higher as a result of DA2 and ME3.

Also this...
"Make sure your ending is appropriate for your story"
"Don't rush something fans have been waiting five years to see."

Very important points.

[Zjarcal]

Nyoka wrote...

Do you think the situation for Dragon Age 3 is this dire? Is Bioware facing the loss of something more besides their fans' money or is it all exaggeration?

Mmm, yes, the internet never exaggerates things.

Is Bioware facing the loss of SOME fans? Sure. Will that be enough to actually make a difference in the real bottom line (sales)? Don't know, but I doubt it.

Eurogamer wrote...

"Make sure your ending is appropriate for your story"

 

Subjective comment is subjective.

I for one thought it was a very appropriate ending.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[LolaLei]

I dunno if it would be the final nail in the coffin, but I dare say it would cause more uproar and concern surrounding Bioware's future in general.

[KDD-0063]

We'll have to see. Nothing is sure.
For EA the situation is probably not so dire. I've seen posts on youtube about people donating hundreds of dollars to EA through the ME3 MP microtransaction system.

but for players? Could be ... full of rats.

[Yrkoon]

"Strike 3" would NOT be the final nail on the coffin, financially or otherwise. It would, however, represent stagnation, or "continuing to just stay afloat", which is a situation that no company wants to be in. The point is to keep advancing, keep moving forward, keep improving.

Will DA3 sell more than DA:O did? If it doesn't then Bioware isn't succeeding. at least not by any decent business model.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Blastback]

I've lost a lot of faith in Bioware. I've pretty much already decided not to preorder any of their games for a while. For me, DA3 could be the final nail. Or it could lead to me happily apologizing for not beliving in them.

[Giggles_Manically]

It takes three things to make a pattern.

I wont be getting DA3 on release that is for sure.

[Darth Death]

Blastback wrote...

I've lost a lot of faith in Bioware. I've pretty much already decided not to preorder any of their games for a while. For me, DA3 could be the final nail. Or it could lead to me happily apologizing for not beliving in them.

This post sums up how I currently feel, excluding the apology part.

[bEVEsthda]

Nyoka wrote...
...and things like reputation, prestige, brand etc probably don't count. I don't think you can get a worse reputation than Microsoft, and look where that company is.
.

Average PC users don't dislike Microsoft. If you compare the situation of being OS customer to MS, and to be OS customer to any other company, ever, then Microsoft have done really great.
It may be true MS is not popular in certain geek circles, and it may be true that the launch of Vista could have been handled better. But Microsoft reached it's dominating position as OS-provider, precisely because they never left their customer base behind!

I think that point is well worth making.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 juillet 2012 - 09:28 .

[Cimeas]

Before you go all agreeing with Eurogamer, remember that they gave DA2 8/10, praised it's combat, story and voiced protagonist, and enjoyed all the DLCs.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I am wary after Mass Effect 3, but I will wait and see what DA3 is like. And I have no plans on preordering it. (Most games I don't, except for Pokemon. ) I prefer to know what I am getting beforehand.

[areuexperienced]

Well, there's some of us who actually liked DA2, even more so than Origins. I also liked ME3.

[Ninja Stan]

Yrkoon wrote...

"Strike 3" would NOT be the final nail on the coffin, financially or otherwise. It would, however, represent stagnation, or "continuing to just stay afloat", which is a situation that no company wants to be in. The point is to keep advancing, keep moving forward, keep improving.

If you check out some of the other posts on the forum, you'll probably see that people believe that BioWare's "new direction" is the issue and that they should go back to the "old way" of doing things. Your comment implies that BioWare should not "rest on their laurels" and should be doing new and innovative things in future games.

Bioware cannot do both at the same time.

[Ninja Stan]

Nyoka wrote...

I remember Stanley Woo saying there had been angry people in every release Bioware has done, so oh well. It was a way to play down the ME3 ****storm. But Bioware itself acknowledged this was unprecedented when they used it for their ads. So in my opinion this isn't the same situation for the company as when games like Mass Effect 2 or Neverwinter Nights were released. Economically they're probably doing better than ever. After all their games are bigger than ever, and things like reputation, prestige, brand etc probably don't count. I don't think you can get a worse reputation than Microsoft, and look where that company is.

I wonder if this feels like a burden to bear, like they're responsible for more than a game, or they don't think about it.

Personally, I think that change is a scary concept for die-hard fans (both of BioWare and games), and that, until any change is proven to be "good" (or, indeed, is seen as "good" over time), fans are going to be resistant to it. Currently, Neverwinter Nights is seen as one of BioWare's greatest games, but at the time it was being developed, there was a lot of backlash from fans of Baldur's Gate and its AD&D 2nd Edition rules. On the other hand, people complain a lot about DLC, yet fans were all a-flutter over NWN's Premium Module program, which aimed to offer additional NWN content sooner and for less money than the traditional Expansions popular at the time.

Similarly, Knights of the Old Republic experienced a huge fan commotion because BioWare decided to develop it for the Xbox first. It was also going to have an action queue rather than the traditional pause-and-play mechanics seen in previous RPGs. BioWare was said to be "betraying its core audience" of PC gamers and there were many who argues that BioWare had "sold out" to LucasArts and "didn't care about the fans anymore." (Sound familiar?)

Even when Dragon Age was being developed, there was a section of the community who questioned why BioWare would spend so much time and effort on a new fantasy IP when all it needed to do was announce a Baldur's Gate 3 and everyone would be happy. And don't get me started on how the fans reacted when it was announced that BioWare was creating its own science-fiction game IP!

I just hope that people can demonstrate a little more patience and maturity when it comes to games and gaming, and learn to deal with disappointment such that games are something other than either THE BEST GAME EVAR and THE WORST THING SINCE HITLER! There's a heck of a lot of middle ground, and I'd like to see more of it than I already do here in the BSN. That'd be swell.

[Wulfram]

ME3 was less concerning that DA2. ME3 was a generally high quality product with a rubbish ending. DA2 was slipshod throughout, even if I enjoyed it a lot.

Though I do hope Bioware take this as a spur to give more attention to their overall plots. I think they can get a bit lost among the various segments and character stuff.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ninja Stan wrote...

snip

I agree with most of what you say about people fearing and hating change, but I feel like most that fear is pretty nonsense when discussing creating a new IP. Its going to be different than previous games, as it should be, to develop its own identity. Where i think a lot of the outcry has been different as of late is the amount of change happening within the same IP from one sequel to the next. While I agree there was a lot of fan outcry going from Baldur's Gate to Never WInter Nights, there was very little outcry going from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate 2. That's because the sequel (and its ex-packs) stayed fairly true to the original in terms of feel and overall game expereince. 

With Orgins and DA2, this was not really the case. It felt like it WAS a new attempt at an IP, instead of a sequel. So it had an even worse fan backlash, because things were changed so dramatically and because these changes were not executed in the most seamless way possible. 

Similarly, with ME1 and 2, you could feel the pacing and the story building up, nothing felt patched together story-wise. The signs were there that Sovereign was in fact a Reaper, but the realization hits you like a ton of bricks and leads right into the end game. The concept that the Collector's were Protheans was shocking, as was the fact that they were singling out humans to turn us into a Reaper (something we knew nothing about). ME3 had no build up or stepping stones to where it went, it just came out of the blue and smacked you with a crazy, tacked-on ending that had been hacked and reassembled like a Frankenstein in the last couple months of development.

So, while I agree there is always fan outcry, the most recent fan outcry has been over the fans feeling betrayed by changes in how the current IPs themselves are handled, not with Bioware taking new directions with new games.

Ninja Stan wrote...

On the other hand, people complain a lot about DLC, yet fans were all a-flutter over NWN's Premium Module program, which aimed to offer additional NWN content sooner and for less money than the traditional Expansions popular at the time.

I think fans can get behind the concept of a game being popular, and the developer wanting to continue to make content for that game and charging fans for it.

Fans get upset when content is already being planned to be released this way from the start, including charging fans for extra story content the day the game is released. It is incredibly frustrating to see many developers say before a game is even on the shelves "Well, let's just put this in a Paid DLC." I understand the development cycle gives the developer lots of time to create content after the game has gone gold, but honestly, it just leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[Jayleia]

Ninja Stan wrote...

If you check out some of the other posts on the forum, you'll probably see that people believe that BioWare's "new direction" is the issue and that they should go back to the "old way" of doing things. Your comment implies that BioWare should not "rest on their laurels" and should be doing new and innovative things in future games.

Bioware cannot do both at the same time.

New and innovative, yes.  Things that leave us wanting to go on anti-depressants, no...hell, I already need anti-depressants to go through everyday life, I come to play videogames to be a hero and do good things.

I don't mind bittersweet or making a sacrifice though, I was comfortable with Virmire or Mordin, for example, because it was a sacrifice in a heroic manner.

[Wulfram]

I believe NWN premium modules were back when we got good patching. And they weren't being flogged on day 1. And were for a game that had excellent modding support.

[SirGladiator]

For all the negatives of DA2, none were present during the DLCs, so clearly there's no reason to expect anything less in DA3. They made some mistakes, they learned from them, its not an issue going forward. The problem with ME3 was simply that, after all 3 games of the Trilogy spanning who knows how many hundreds of hours playing as various main characters, none of them were allowed to have a happy ending, no matter what you did, it was just various degrees of bad endings. That's just mind-boggling insanity, and David Gaider is not insane, he's not going to write 16 different bad endings and no good ones, so again, that's not relevant to DA3. I think that in general, folks that are worried about DA3 are worried needlessly. Its understandable of course, but from everything we know about Bioware in general, the people involved in DA3 specificly, and also from all the comments we've heard from them so far, they're going to be going out of their way to make sure that they hear what the fans want, and give it to them. There's just no reason to expect anything less than Bioware's best game ever, when DA3 finally comes out.

[Massakkolia]

Nyoka wrote...

I wouldn't like this to turn into a thread about users and how good or bad they are. I wrote this about what the position the people making DA3 (programmers, designers, writers) consider themselves to be, relative to the huge amount of flak the company has received and the -I repeat- unprecedented reactions its two latest games provoked.

ME3 may qualify for a case of unprecedented reactions but DA2 just received general disgruntlement of a hastily developed game (and it was still liked by many). Nothing new under the sun.

ME3's case is special because it triggered a movement of sorts and Bioware actually decided to answer to the criticism with Extended Cut. Something positive came out of that mess, so I wouldn't consider ME3 the final or any kind of nail in the coffin, especially considering how well it was received by reviewers and, indeed, by most players. If anything, the campaign against the endings just showed how committed the fanbase still is.

Internet has a way of magnifying every minor controversy into a scandal and, unfortunately, critics are always moving in larger herds here than happy customers do. I'm hardly a perfectly happy Bioware customer myself but this doomsday discourse is just getting really old. It's just not rooted in realism.

Critics on BSN will never bankrupt Bioware (or EA). Deterioration of the financial crisis might. It's also very unlikely that the position of the employees at Bioware is somehow precarious or unbearably stressful because some fans sent them angry cupcakes. Judging by reviews and sales, they made a pretty good game (DA2) and a great game (ME3). I'd wager it's business as usual. 

SWTOR is really the only thing that worries me a little mainly because that thing was so damn expensive to make and I'm not sure if they're going to get their money back. 

Modifié par Ria, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:32 .

[Blastback]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

I remember Stanley Woo saying there had been angry people in every release Bioware has done, so oh well. It was a way to play down the ME3 ****storm. But Bioware itself acknowledged this was unprecedented when they used it for their ads. So in my opinion this isn't the same situation for the company as when games like Mass Effect 2 or Neverwinter Nights were released. Economically they're probably doing better than ever. After all their games are bigger than ever, and things like reputation, prestige, brand etc probably don't count. I don't think you can get a worse reputation than Microsoft, and look where that company is.

I wonder if this feels like a burden to bear, like they're responsible for more than a game, or they don't think about it.

Personally, I think that change is a scary concept for die-hard fans (both of BioWare and games), and that, until any change is proven to be "good" (or, indeed, is seen as "good" over time), fans are going to be resistant to it. Currently, Neverwinter Nights is seen as one of BioWare's greatest games, but at the time it was being developed, there was a lot of backlash from fans of Baldur's Gate and its AD&D 2nd Edition rules. On the other hand, people complain a lot about DLC, yet fans were all a-flutter over NWN's Premium Module program, which aimed to offer additional NWN content sooner and for less money than the traditional Expansions popular at the time.

Similarly, Knights of the Old Republic experienced a huge fan commotion because BioWare decided to develop it for the Xbox first. It was also going to have an action queue rather than the traditional pause-and-play mechanics seen in previous RPGs. BioWare was said to be "betraying its core audience" of PC gamers and there were many who argues that BioWare had "sold out" to LucasArts and "didn't care about the fans anymore." (Sound familiar?)

Even when Dragon Age was being developed, there was a section of the community who questioned why BioWare would spend so much time and effort on a new fantasy IP when all it needed to do was announce a Baldur's Gate 3 and everyone would be happy. And don't get me started on how the fans reacted when it was announced that BioWare was creating its own science-fiction game IP!

I just hope that people can demonstrate a little more patience and maturity when it comes to games and gaming, and learn to deal with disappointment such that games are something other than either THE BEST GAME EVAR and THE WORST THING SINCE HITLER! There's a heck of a lot of middle ground, and I'd like to see more of it than I already do here in the BSN. That'd be swell.

I can handle an individual game being disapointing.  Look at half the Star Wars games ever made, and every Transformers game until War for Cybertron. 

What really fustrates me is when new games like SWTOR or ME3 affect my perception of the story and characters in previous games negatively.  Oh, my PC in KotOR is going to be imprisioned for 300 years then fall to the dark side and possibly be killed in a mid level flashpoint.  So no matter what choices I made, his fate is always one that I can't stand.  Sure I can replay KotOR and try to disregard what future games have in store for him, but it's always in the back of my mind.  And that really hurts the expereiance.  Same with the ME3 endings.  Heck the Warden's mysterious disapearnce from their loved ones. 

It gives me a feeling of what was the point if I can't control my character's fate.