226 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Sticking to your guns
 Once upon a time, a company made a fundamental change to the way their game worked... "Hardcore" loyal users loved it, while a vocal segment kept screaming bloody murder for a change. The company stuck to it's guns...

Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.

The "threat" issue was fundamental to the game , as it regulated how party members and the "boss" would interact on a battle in-game. Hardcore gamers wanted it to be very hard and convoluted. Others wanted it as it had been for the past 3-4 years. Forums exploded in bitter battles for / against it. The game developer stuck to it's guns and released their latest sequel catering to the hardcore  crowd. But instead of barely disguised contempt for differing opinions, they explained their rationale behind it.

Why have threat?

Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. .... Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work ..  

.

Old story, right ? Except it didn't end there 

Reversing a decision, for free, based on user feedback
The people complaining had several valid points. Which were not ignored by the developers.. They were listened to and acknowledged, even if the devs disagreed

Why not have threat?
As I said in the previous blog, it's not fun to feel throttled...

6 months passed. and in game battles got to be a nightmare for hardcores and others alike. And the developers, instead of complaining about "entitled" users, kept watching how their game was working, seeing where it could be improved... And realized that they had missed some important ways their game change had made the game worse.

However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when ...

Being pros at customer service, not only at developing games, the development team reverted their changes. And posted about it, again without hubris or condescension 

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. ..

Is it any wonder those Developers have a game loved by 10 MILLION USERS all over the world ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:03 .

[D24O]

Diablo 3.

[Renmiri1]

D24O wrote...

Diablo 3.

 Can't disagree with you there.. But surprisingly enough, some people love it. Heavens know how

[Mr.House]

Valve, Bethesda or CDP are much better examples.

[Baa Baa]

Mr.House wrote...

Valve, Bethesda or CDP are much better examples.

What bout Rockstar? Eidos?

[Renmiri1]

Ya, my point is developers do change stuff in game for free, all the time. And the pros even do it in a way that makes all users happy.

[N-Seven]

D24O wrote...

Diablo 3.

I LOL'ed. 

Yeah, fun enough game for one or two playthroughs, but the AH and loot system kind broke the own carrot-and-horse model which made it's predecessors addictive.   But that, is a discussion for another forum....

[Renmiri1]

Mass Effect has an universe rich enough and combat system good enough to be a kickarse MMO but I doubt they will get there killing Sheppard and their fans hopes.

[Zjarcal]

Renmiri1 wrote...
And the pros even do it in a way that makes all users happy.

Lies, you can never make everyone happy.

[Renmiri1]

Zjarcal wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
And the pros even do it in a way that makes all users happy.

Lies, you can never make everyone happy.

If you look at the WoW forums there is every bit of nerd rage as here, but hard to argue with their 10  million users sales figures...

PS: Their "paid beta" has 1.4 million users already.

The guys know how to keep a crowd paying every month, there is no denying it.  And I suspect respect for users opinion comes a long way towards that. You may not get what you want today.. but you know the devs have your back and will change their mind if their decision doesn't work

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[chemiclord]

One thing to change a game mechanic.

It's entirely another to completely change how you want to tell a story because some fans complain.

To the latter, I'd tell them largely what Bioware told them. "Don't like our story? Then find someone else who tells the story you want to hear. We're not changing it to suit you. Deal with it."

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

One thing to change a game mechanic.

It's entirely another to completely change how you want to tell a story because some fans complain.

To the latter, I'd tell them largely what Bioware told them. "Don't like our story? Then find someone else who tells the story you want to hear. We're not changing it to suit you. Deal with it."

Yup

That explains the difference in stock prices and consumer satisfaction 

[Renmiri1]

guess which one is the "Deal with it" company...

[AresKeith]

ohhh EA, will you ever learn

[chemiclord]

Yep... because ME3 is the sole reason EA's stock prices are dropping.

Acti/Blizzard is right there solely because they have pretty much a monopoly in the MMO market (being the only one that can charge a monthly fee), and only because people have invested so much time and money they really don't want to try anything else and "waste" that investment.

It certainly isn't because people particularly LIKE their product.  In fact, Battle.net's forums are ablaze with even MORE rage than the BSN.  They're on top pretty much for the same reason McDonald's is everywhere... it's not because McD's has the best food.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:26 .

[Fawx9]

chemiclord wrote...

One thing to change a game mechanic.

It's entirely another to completely change how you want to tell a story because some fans complain.

To the latter, I'd tell them largely what Bioware told them. "Don't like our story? Then find someone else who tells the story you want to hear. We're not changing it to suit you. Deal with it."

You say that as if they haven't taken fan opionion when crafting their stories.

Why do you think there has been several discussion with the community on how they want the factions to progress, especially after some negative reviews of the past expansion.

[chemiclord]

Fawx9 wrote...

You say that as if they haven't taken fan opionion when crafting their stories.

Why do you think there has been several discussion with the community on how they want the factions to progress, especially after some negative reviews of the past expansion.

Bioware's taken fan opinion as well.

Doesn't mean Bioware doesn't reserve the right, whenever they want, to ignore fan opinion, and tell the story they want to tell.  Don't like it?  Don't support it.  Bioware will either learn, or they will go out of business.

Either way... you win.

Besides, how many people do you think buy and subscribe to World of Warcraft for it's story?  Blizzard would change anything story-wise because... frankly, they don't give a ****.  WoW's "lore" has been retconned so many times that it's almost a running joke at this point.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:33 .

[Darth_Trethon]

AresKeith wrote...

ohhh EA, will you ever learn

Yeah they will.....after they're forced out of business. Might take a while but if they keep up this attitude it'll happen.

[Sajuro]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Ya, my point is developers do change stuff in game for free, all the time. And the pros even do it in a way that makes all users happy.

Bioware has been good on the multiplayer front but the problem with ME3 is that a segment of people wanted the ending completely redone while there were people who didn't like it but because of how fragmented it was, people who were ambivalent about it, and people who actually liked how the ending played out. If Bioware gave a full epilogue, completely changing the ending people wold be pissed because the ending wasn't on the disk and that there were moments how their sheps should have reacted differently.
As it is, they gave us a free DLC extended ending which featured krogan babies and showed us what happened as a result of our choices while leaving enough ambigous that your shepard if they chose destroy could settle down with their LI, have horrible ptsd and end it all, or take Jack up on her offer to become pirates and go raiding the galaxy in the Normandy, without anyone posting and whining about how their shepard's would never have settled down. You can't make everyone happy, that's a rule of life, and on the internet you can't make anyone happy apparently because everything that doesn't work out the way they want it to is apparently a "STFU" from the developers.

[Wayning_Star]

stats are a tricky way of providing proof of any business dependibility to the fan base.

http://en.wikipedia....vision_Blizzard

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

Yep... because ME3 is the sole reason EA's stock prices are dropping.

Acti/Blizzard is right there solely because they have pretty much a monopoly in the MMO market (being the only one that can charge a monthly fee), and only because people have invested so much time and money they really don't want to try anything else and "waste" that investment.

It certainly isn't because people particularly LIKE their product.  In fact, Battle.net's forums are ablaze with even MORE rage than the BSN.  They're on top pretty much for the same reason McDonald's is everywhere... it's not because McD's has the best food.

I'm one of the 10 million. I eat at McD sometimes. I'm on battle.net. I recently bought ME2 and ME3 and got an account  here.

I was honestly shocked with the way customer input is treated here. I opposed the WoW tanking threat change during their beta. I was NEVER treated with contempt by devs or moderators. I opposed and supported a lot of things during my several years raiding on WoW. Some of them I got, some of them I didn't. I still have a lot of things I complain about , and a lot of things I love. I try to stop playing it but it draws me back in.

The thing that drew me back into WoW this time was ME3. On WoW,  I get the confidence that the devs want to make a good game for me. That they are not out there just to take my money and call me dumb for not getting their "art". Here  ? Not so much...

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:49 .

[comrade gando]

Zjarcal wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
And the pros even do it in a way that makes all users happy.

Lies, you can never make everyone happy.

true, but you can also not ****** most of them off

[chemiclord]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I'm one of the 10 million. I eat at McD sometimes. I'm on battle.net. I recently bought ME2 and ME3 and got an account  here.

I was honestly shocked with the way customer input is treated here. I opposed the WoW thanking threat change during their beta. I was NEVER treated with contempt by devs or moderators. I opposed and supported a lot of things during my several years raiding on WoW. Some of them I got, some of them I didn't. I still have a lot of things I complain about , and a lot of things I love. I try to stop playing it but it draws me back in.

The thing that drew me back into WoW this time was ME3. On WoW,  I get the confidence that the devs want to make a good game for me. That they are not out there just to take my money and call me dumb for not getting their "art". Here  ? Not so much...

You haven't been treated with "contempt" by devs here, either.  You just want to THINK you have been, because they're sticking with a creative vision you particularly don't like.

Bioware HAS listened to you.  They don't agree.  If you don't like it, LEAVE.  That's how you show them, not by complaining about it on their forums and trying to compare apples to oranges.

Blizzard doesn't give one-tenth of one **** about giving you a "good game."  They will give you whatever you want so that you keep spending $15 a month.  That's empty pandering... anyone can do that.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

[ snip ]

Besides, how many people do you think buy and subscribe to World of Warcraft for it's story?  Blizzard would change anything story-wise because... frankly, they don't give a ****.  WoW's "lore" has been retconned so many times that it's almost a running joke at this point.

They actually do.

Horde players have hated Garrosh,  the new Horde leader on Cataclysm pretty much since the moment he was announced. I remember on Cataclysm beta there was a bug that made you able to attack friendly NPCs. On Ally side, King Varian started attacking players and they just ran away. On Horde side we made a raid to kill Garrosh . And every time the bug happened on Horde that raid was renewed...

Guess what is happening? Garrosh is getting his arse kicked and Thrall comes back  .

There was also the time a guy corrected Blizzard on Lore during a convention. Did he get crucified ? Nope, he got put in game as an NPC, as "lorekeeper".