226 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

Hi, you keep on mentioning disrespect from Bioware, for one thing you use the word "entitled" as a remark from them in speech marks;

Can you link me to all these disrespecting remarks from Bioware? Especially the entitled one?

[English Cooper]

chemiclord wrote...

Ooooookay...

This... disrespected you... HOW... exactly?

It sounds like he's actually giving a fairly detailed reason why the writing staff chose to resolve a story arc in a particular way.  I see absolutely NO insult or condescension here.  It's in fact remarkably VOID of any incendiary language. 

Or is the disrespect simply because it wasn't resolved the way you wanted it resolved?

I agree I didn't see any disrespect, if he had said... "Your just too stupid to see how awesome Thanes death is for the story" that would be disrespect.. he didn't however he took the time to explain why the decision was made and did so in a perfectly reasonable manner

[xsdob]

Renmiri1 wrote...

http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12793076/1#12800332

That's not what I meant.

I can't see it in the post you linked, at all. Tully doesn't seem to say anything condesencing or rude or disrepsectful to fans.

Please post the quote you are talking about and explain why it is this is condesending and or disrespectful.

Thank you.

[Krunjar]

Sorry I just can't get behind this tbh I find the news of EA's stock tanking to be very welcome sooner they are gone from gaming the better. But Blizzard? They are every bit as callous and arrogant and intrusive as EA ever was.

[xsdob]

All companies are callous and arrogant, they are all that and more.

What I'm sick of is people propping up other comapies as somehow morally better than EA and bioware, they are not.

They just haven't found a way to take all your money yet, god knows they're trying their hardest to get it.

[MetioricTest]

To be honest if you want EA's stock to fall because you're unhappy with the ending of one of their video games... Then you're more arrogant than you are accusing them of being.

[MurderHouse]

When bro was like, "I got this one!" I lol'd

[Mavaras]

Yeah...

I am going to play games until the day I die. Sometimes they are great, sometimes they suck, and nobody is impervious from ****ting the bed from time to time. You just gotta pan through games to find the gold. This brand, that brand. This franchise, that franchise. I don't put faith in any of them. I just take my licking and look forward to the next quality story driven game. Like the rest of existence, it's a crapshoot. When the good game comes, it's all worth it.

Modifié par Mavaras, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:44 .

[devSin]

D24O wrote...

Diablo 3.

They've been very attentive to the concerns, and have acknowledged the issues they see with the game.

The game may not be perfect (I had a lot of fun with it, and I know I'll be playing again before too long), but they are going to keep working on it until they're satisfied. That's why they're Blizzard, and that's why they sell a trillion copies of their PC-only games.

[Sajuro]

You keep saying that Bioware is disrespectful while most of the anger and pettiness I have seen came from the 'fans' on this forum, whether it was the endless wave of mocking the concept of artistic integrity or insulting Jessica Chobot (along with others).

[Renmiri1]

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

Blizzard disagreed with tank threat being a BS mechanic for making combat more interesting. They thought low tank threat was the bees' knees. But they listened. That is their lead developer talking about the issue and he does a very good job of listing the opposing opinion. "That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it"  He lists our reasons, respectfully, truly understanding them, even though he opposes it.  Read the post. You are not going to find "cheapen", "trivialize", "artistic integrity" in his posts. You will find someone who listens to your points and debates them seriously, without cheap shots
http://wow.joystiq.c...anges-to-threa/

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:14 .

[chemiclord]

Okay, before this gets derailed too much further, I want to make this much clear.

I do not think the OP is "stupid" for not liking what was given. That's perfectly fine. I'm not entirely (or even mostly) satisfied with what I was given myself. There is nothing wrong with disliking ME3 endings, or even the game as a whole. THAT does not make someone a "hater" an "entitled whiner" or any other insult that will no doubt emerge.

I (and I speak only for myself) found a logical disconnect with the claim made in relation to the expectations had, and pointed out the fallacy of applying those expectations to an entirely different type of game and to an entirely different element.

And yes, fans have also interpreted insult into very general, blase statements made by Bioware. That is the fault of BOTH sides; as much the fault of the statements made that have been rendered so neutral that they feel standoff-ish as much as the fans who WANT to find insult within them.

Understand that yes, there IS a strong underlying current of betrayal, and that while it is perhaps illogical based on a completely objective analysis of the evidence at hand, reaction (and especially a visceral reaction to something distasteful) is not always logical. A degree of animosity should be expected, and does not make anyone who feels that way inherently stupid or somehow wrong.

Now... with that said:

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

At the very WORST, what Tully is guilty of is MAYBE a slightly poor choice of words.  I personally do not think so.  To introduce a character dying of a terminal illness, then give him an 11th hour cure... wouldn't you think that would kinda render the entire arc of his character pointless?  To build up his entire story to facing death at death's door, and then say, "Nah, bra.  jk lol, here's your cure-all medicine."

That's what "cheapens" a character means; to render their trials and development irrelevant by changing the circumstances of that character so that everything they went through becomes moot.  It is hardly meant as an insult.  I am sorry that you picked up a different vibe from it.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[NKKKK]

Johannes Kepler, while depressed that his Platonic Solid model for the solar system was ultimately wrong, he discarded it when he did further research.

Hudson and Walters still think the ending is "art" they didn't even let other writers touch it, because it's "their story"

[MetioricTest]

Sajuro wrote...

You keep saying that Bioware is disrespectful while most of the anger and pettiness I have seen came from the 'fans' on this forum, whether it was the endless wave of mocking the concept of artistic integrity or insulting Jessica Chobot (along with others).

I actually disagree with this (although it may not be directly Bioware's fault as such) since the game came out the fans have been rentlessly mocked and misrepresented. From the whole thing of every site (that curiously gave the game an isntant 10/10) insisting the fans were entitled and upset that the ending "wasn't happy." until that';s what people who know nothing about the game now believe.

Then add on Bioware/EA's evasion of the fan complaints.  They didn't want to listen or talk about it, banned their employees from talking about it other than basic blank statements, and just basically all round shut the fans out.

These two blows mixed together really ticked off and direspected the fans and I can completely understand it. You're not only not being listened to but other people are running around intentionally misrepsenting you and insulting you so you look like idiots who are not being listened too.


I can easily understand why a lot of fans felt disrespected.

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

Where is the insult to you though?

Can you provide links to all these posts you talk about?

[Krunjar]

MetioricTest wrote...

To be honest if you want EA's stock to fall because you're unhappy with the ending of one of their video games... Then you're more arrogant than you are accusing them of being.

Errrm if y ou had seen my other posts you would know (And I assume you did as you feel comfortable making sweeping generalisations about my motives.) i am quite satisfied with the Me3 endings. I hate EA for many many good reasons. Which i will not spell out here. Neadless to say though it's you who needs to learn to read. I never once said i hate EA because of the mass effect ending because that's NOT THE REASON!

Modifié par Krunjar, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:23 .

[Renmiri1]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

Where is the insult to you though?

Can you provide links to all these posts you talk about?

3 posts above I linked it

[N-Seven]

Again though, it's easy to see why Blizzard 'panders' more to their fans than other companies might. Because their primary cash cow is a massively multiplayer, mechanics/loot/pvp/grinding, subscription-based game.

Seeing that same level of support for a single-player, relatively short, story-based, non-subscription based game would be great. But I don't expect it to be there.

On the flipside, I've been playing the MP portion of ME3 a lot lately, and their support in altering the mechanics of that has been fantastic. Weekly balance changes, buffs and nerfs when appropriate, tweaking of enemies and loot system. Very nice and it's hooked me into a game mode I never expected to play.

Continued game mechanic changes for multiplayer games are pretty much the norm. Pretty rare though for story changes to take place.

And yeah as far as disrespect goes...by far and large, we've been worse to each other and BW than the other way around.

[N-Seven]

Tully Auckland:

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Also, moved this to spoiler forum.

Seriously, this is pretty lightweight.  If this is the most insulting post you can find...I mean, this is nothing.

Also I can't find Tully ever saying 'cheapens', though some of the other forum members do.

Modifié par N-Seven, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Where is the insult to you though?

Can you provide links to all these posts you talk about?

3 posts above I linked it

So this:

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Also, moved this to spoiler forum.

Where is the insult to you? Can you highlight the section where Bioware is disrespectful and insulting towards you?

Also can you link me to that post about them calling fans "entitled"? You put speech marks around it so could I see the full quote?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[Malanek]

I think I have to come out and bat for Bioware here. I strongly believe they do listen and have relatively strong dev-fan interaction. Whether they can realistically change decisions immediately depends on what the problem is. They have talked about the ending and what they wanted to convey, they listened to the complaints and put together the EC which was pretty well received especially given the decisions they had already made. In ME2 they fixed the crappy ME1 combat system. In ME3 they brought back squad banter. In DA2 the DLC corrected a lot of the problems with the game (overused waves, reused environments). I'm confident they will learn from this for the future as well.

[Renmiri1]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

Blizzard disagreed with tank threat being a BS mechanic for making combat more interesting. They thought low tank threat was the bees' knees. But they listened. That is their lead developer talking about the issue and he does a very good job of listing the opposing opinion. "That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it"  He lists our reasons, respectfully, truly understanding them, even though he opposes it.  Read the post. You are not going to find "cheapen", "trivialize", "artistic integrity" in [  Bilzzard's Lead Developer's ] posts. You will find someone who listens to your points and debates them seriously, without cheap shots
http://wow.joystiq.c...anges-to-threa/

Malanek999 wrote...

I think I have to come out and bat for Bioware here. I strongly believe they do listen and have relatively strong dev-fan interaction. Whether they can realistically change decisions immediately depends on what the problem is. They have talked about the ending and what they wanted to convey, they listened to the complaints and put together the EC which was pretty well received especially given the decisions they had already made. In ME2 they fixed the crappy ME1 combat system. In ME3 they brought back squad banter. In DA2 the DLC corrected a lot of the problems with the game (overused waves, reused environments). I'm confident they will learn from this for the future as well.

 

I hope so. They are truly talented in story telling and combat systems. All that is missing for them is a little more of empathy.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:38 .

[cbutz]

Well Op, your example was a game play mechanic change as opposed to a Story change from Bioware, a change I would like but they are different none the less. EH and Blizzards story writing has declined drastically since WoW. It why i do not buy from them anymore.

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well.. Except that he says the option I want "cheapens" the character.

Blizzard disagreed with tank threat being a BS mechanic for making combat more interesting. They thought low tank threat was the bees' knees. But they listened. That is their lead developer talking about the issue and he does a very good job of listing the opposing opinion. "That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it"  He lists our reasons, respectfully, truly understanding them, even though he opposes it.  Read the post. You are not going to find "cheapen", "trivialize", "artistic integrity" in [  Bilzzard's Lead Developer's ] posts. You will find someone who listens to your points and debates them seriously, without cheap shots
http://wow.joystiq.c...anges-to-threa/

So Bioware insulted you when they explained why they thought it would triviliaze Thane's terminal illness if Shepard was able to "solve" it? Was it the explination on that aspect of the story that insulted you or was it that aspect of the story that insulted you?

Also can you link me to the post where they call their users "entitled" like you mentioned in the OP?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[N-Seven]

Leah deserves a better ending.