226 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So Bioware insulted you when they explained why they thought it would triviliaze Thane's terminal illness if Shepard was able to "solve" it? Was it the explination on that aspect of the story that insulted you or was it that aspect of the story that insulted you?

Also can you link me to the post where they call their users "entitled" like you mentioned in the OP?

Both actually. I don't want to turn this into a Thane thread and that is why I didn't post the link on the first post. My point is you can clearly see Blizzard's Lead Developer tried to see the opposing point of view's reasons. He has a paragraph for "Why Threat" and one for "Why not Threat" where both points of view are summarized whithout judgement and cheap shots.

Blizzard still went live with the solution I didn't like, but I never felt my opinion was not heard. They make live betas with a million users and collect feedback. They ask for feedback, in a way you think they honestly care. It may all be an act and they are laughing all the way to the bank, but at least you feel respected, not used as a cash station.

Did Bioware ever asked why people opposed Space Brat ? Did they ever acknowledge that it - might - feel a bit out of place considering it was not on any other game or even in ME3 until the last 10 minutes ? Nope

We never got a "why we think the ending rocks" post that included the criticism to it, analyzed in an unbiased nature. And I think that is part of the reason fans are still mad. 

PS: You will notce that Tully never asked WHY we felt that a save option would be good. He just says it will trivialize the character. It is judgemental and completely closed to any user input.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:56 .

[chemiclord]

So... Blizzard explaining to you and then doing what you didn't want them to do... okay.

Bioware explaining to you and then doing what you didn't want them to do... not okay.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

So... Blizzard explaining to you and then doing what you didn't want them to do... okay.

Bioware explaining to you and then doing what you didn't want them to do... not okay.

Basically correct.

The difference is the way each one explained their decisions and showed respect to user input. On one I felt condescension and the sense that they not only did not care for my opinion but they actually resented it. On the other felt like talking to an adult and discussing two perfectly valid points of view.

And 6 months later Blizzard reverted the bad changes. They didn't just rest on their laurels and said "deal with it". They actually kept observing the game mechanics in action, how many tanks were available for dungeons, what happened if the tank was undergeared, etc.. The points that we "haters" had pointed out. They kept on measuring the stats and realized we "haters" were right. They really listened. It wasn't just PR bull.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So Bioware insulted you when they explained why they thought it would triviliaze Thane's terminal illness if Shepard was able to "solve" it? Was it the explination on that aspect of the story that insulted you or was it that aspect of the story that insulted you?

Also can you link me to the post where they call their users "entitled" like you mentioned in the OP?

Both actually. I don't want to turn this into a Thane thread and that is why I didn't post the link on the first post. My point is you can clearly see Blizzard's Lead Developer tried to see the opposing point of view's reasons. He has a paragraph for "Why Threat" and one for "Why not Threat" where both points of view are summarized whithout judgement and cheap shots.

I excluded the rest because it derailed a bit from my quote.

So Bioware insulted you by not allowing Thane's illness to be solved by Shepard and by explaining why they decided to do that? The Blizzard analogy doesn't work here unfortunately as that is a gameplay mechanic and not a storyline mechanic, which are two vastly different things. And again unfortunately Bioware wasn't actually being insulting, there is a difference between an insult and an explination of a plot line which you do not like and took as an insult. An insult is a putdown or a nasty remark against you, whereas in that situation Bioware responded as to why they didn't feel it was right to let the player "solve" Thane's terminal illness. As much as you might not like it that post wasn't actually an insult, unlike that post you mentioned about Bioware calling their users "entitled", that is most definitely an insult.

Sadly as insulting as it is we'll have to discount it until we can see some evidence of it. Can you post a link to it here?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[FlamingBoy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Yep... because ME3 is the sole reason EA's stock prices are dropping.

Acti/Blizzard is right there solely because they have pretty much a monopoly in the MMO market (being the only one that can charge a monthly fee), and only because people have invested so much time and money they really don't want to try anything else and "waste" that investment.

It certainly isn't because people particularly LIKE their product.  In fact, Battle.net's forums are ablaze with even MORE rage than the BSN.  They're on top pretty much for the same reason McDonald's is everywhere... it's not because McD's has the best food.

I'm one of the 10 million. I eat at McD sometimes. I'm on battle.net. I recently bought ME2 and ME3 and got an account  here.

I was honestly shocked with the way customer input is treated here. I opposed the WoW tanking threat change during their beta. I was NEVER treated with contempt by devs or moderators. I opposed and supported a lot of things during my several years raiding on WoW. Some of them I got, some of them I didn't. I still have a lot of things I complain about , and a lot of things I love. I try to stop playing it but it draws me back in.

The thing that drew me back into WoW this time was ME3. On WoW,  I get the confidence that the devs want to make a good game for me. That they are not out there just to take my money and call me dumb for not getting their "art". Here  ? Not so much...

theres a strange setinment travelling its way around the internet that people are not allowed to complain and if you do your "entitled", or return a game your "entitled" (many other examples). The concept is being turned in to a weapon by major publishers, developers, and large gaming news organizations. and used whenever a customer is disatsfied

honestly I can fairly say I have never been treated so poorly than my time with the mass effect crew (and this is even with the EC taken into account) I mean the less than stellar mass effect 3 and post press releases only proves that.

As far as I am concerned bioware stole 120$ from me for misleading advertising!

[ld1449]

Renmiri1 wrote...

guess which one is the "Deal with it" company...

Beautiful



Brings tears of joy to the eye.

[chemiclord]

Here's the problem I'm having.

You're projecting condescension and resentment onto something that does not in the least show it. I have YET to see a Bioware response that actually displays ANYTHING of the sort. There was definitely backlash against fans, but that was from other fans and from media outside of Bioware.

[Renmiri1]

Sigh...

Do you honestly see ANY effort from Tully to understand where are we coming from, on the "save Thane" issue ? I don't see any.

I see him telling me it will trivialize the story.

Did you see any effort from Bioware to understand and debate - honestly debate - the myriad of criticism they got for the ending ? I haven't. That voice interview before the EC was a bit galling on the way it tried to tell critics to STFU.

Did they listen to some of it ? Ya and hence the DLC. I liked the Krogan babies and the goodbyes and plugging of some plot holes. Still.. I don't feel listened to. I feel like I got a "show and tell" because I was not bright enough to see how the Casper ending is awesome. It is not and I wish they would stop pretending it is.

Blizzard admitted a mistake, fixed it and moved on. Why can't Bioware follow their lead ?

[chemiclord]

Because... Bioware didn't make a mistake?

At least... in the example you posted.  

Tully is actually... well... right.  The entire path of Thane's character arc was coming to grips with the inevitable, accepting death and preparing yourself for it.  To cure him at the 11th hour completely ruins the entire point of his entire character development from the very moment he was introduced.

When it comes to "story" elements, what is deemed a "mistake" is a matter of mostly opinion.  As far as Bioware is concerned, they did not make a "mistake" at all... so why should they fix what they don't feel is broken?

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Sigh...

Do you honestly see ANY effort from Tully to understand where are we coming from, on the "save Thane" issue ? I don't see any.

I see him telling me it will trivialize the story.

Did you see any effort from Bioware to understand and debate - honestly debate - the myriad of criticism they got for the ending ? I haven't. That voice interview before the EC was a bit galling on the way it tried to tell critics to STFU.

Did they listen to some of it ? Ya and hence the DLC. I liked the Krogan babies and the goodbyes and plugging of some plot holes. Still.. I don't feel listened to. I feel like I got a "show and tell" because I was not bright enough to see how the Casper ending is awesome. It is not and I wish they would stop pretending it is.

Blizzard admitted a mistake, fixed it and moved on. Why can't Bioware follow their lead ?

Fortunately I can answer this one:

In Blizzard's case it was a gameplay element that could be changed, not a storyline element, so the analogy doesn't work.

In Bioware's case Thane's storyline was written up before the game came out, Mass Effect has never been about Shepard doing what he wants, their are certain elements he can't control, for example curing Thane's terminal illness. Bioware explained, without insults, why they thought it would trivilize Thane if Shepard could somehow cure his terminal illness. Unlike Blizzard's case this isn't a "mistake", it's the story they wished to tell. Mass Effect has been about choices but it's never been Mass Effect: The Sims, there are certain elements even Shepard can't control, and that's the actions that other people take without him. Sometimes he isn't able to convince them to stop and has to shoot them in the back like Mordin's case, sometimes he can give them information to help them but can't actually stop them like in Miranda's case, and sometimes he can't do anything about it like on Virmire or in Thane's case. Demanding that they change a part of the story they told to fit your ideal, and calling it a mistake, doesn't mean Bioware were insulting you when they explained why they chose to write that storyline the way they did.

Now back to my request, can you link that quote where Bioware calls the users "entitled"?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

Because... Bioware didn't make a mistake?

Ya, and that is why they spent 3 months and hours and hours on free content. Because the ending was perfect, There was no mistake. The EC is just.. BW and EA feeling generous. They can ****** away money like that, their stock is so good lately 


The thing is debatable. Did Blizzard make a mistake with their game mechanics idea ? They honestly felt it was better than the alternative. But they also honestly kept on collecting statistics on it. When they saw a problem they dug into it, unbiased.

Blizzard = Scientist = show me

Bioware = Preacher = Obey me

People and companies who insist they don't make mistakes.. They aren't usually the best ones to follow.


PS: I'm avoiding discussing Thane's fate here to not make this thread about his fate. If you truly want to discuss his story arch, stop by one of the threads in the romance forum

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .

[chemiclord]

Okay... I don't want you to accuse me of "insulting" you... but I'm going to use your own words against you now. 

Renmiri1 wrote...

I opposed and supported a lot of things during my several years raiding on WoW. Some of them I got, some of them I didn't. I still have a lot of things I complain about , and a lot of things I love. I try to stop playing it but it draws me back in.

This is EXACTLY what Bioware just gave you.  You got some of the things you wanted, some you didn't.  That is apparently okay when it comes from Blizzard, but is NOT okay coming from Bioware.

This is what is called a "double standard."  And by and large, double standards are nigh always wrong.

For someone calling Blizzard "scientists" and Blizzard "preachers", you have presented a very illogical argument filled with fallacies and what sounds like coming from a Blizzard slappy with an axe to grind with Bioware.

I think it's time for you to just stop.  Because, I'm sorry... but you are pretty much entirely wrong, both in your premise and your arguments.  Just leave and go back to playing WoW, because it's clear you enjoy it and not Mass Effect.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Thane's fate here to not make this thread about his fate. If you truly want to discuss his story arch, stop by one of the threads in the romance forum

We're not really discussing his fate, I'm mearly explaining why Bioware's explination on his storyline wasn't actually an insult like you made it out to be. What we're discussing is all the insults that Bioware have done to their fans that you seem to be quite caught up on, but so far haven't produced anything other than Bioware explaining why they decided not to let Shepard be able to cure Thane's illness at the last minute, in a post that wasn't condescending or insulting.

Again can you produce that quote of Bioware calling their users "entitled" or any other insulting posts by Bioware?

[Krunjar]

chemiclord wrote...

Because... Bioware didn't make a mistake?

At least... in the example you posted.  

Tully is actually... well... right.  The entire path of Thane's character arc was coming to grips with the inevitable, accepting death and preparing yourself for it.  To cure him at the 11th hour completely ruins the entire point of his entire character development from the very moment he was introduced.

When it comes to "story" elements, what is deemed a "mistake" is a matter of mostly opinion.  As far as Bioware is concerned, they did not make a "mistake" at all... so why should they fix what they don't feel is broken?

Let's be clear here I believe in Bioware. They where great once and they can be great again. They just need to get rid of EA.

[chemiclord]

Krunjar wrote...

Let's be clear here I believe in Bioware. They where great once and they can be great again. They just need to get rid of EA.

And for what it's worth, there are PLENTY of objective continuity errors that could be used that if you REALLY wanted to make an argument for "patching" a story.

Thane's character arc, however, is NOT one of those things.

[Renmiri1]

I believe you are still completely missing what I'm saying.

You grasp that both Bioware and Blizzard gave me some things I wanted and some things I didn't like, in their games.

But you don't grasp the follow up to that fact. I am not mad at Bioware for killing Thane or making Space Casper haunt the end of ME3. No one gets all they want in a game.

The difference between Bioware and Blizzard is not on me having "an ax to grind" or being a hater or feeling entitled against Bioware. I posted Blizzard's example here to prove a company can and does keep millions of it's users happy, if they show some respect for users opinions.

When Bioware (and you) try to put all the weight of the frustration about ME3 on the people complaining, they are not LISTENING. You and Bioware never asked me what exactly I disliked on the ending on how would an option to Save Thane work. You have actually asked several questions and tried to talk to me, which is a lot more than Bioware ever did.

So I'm proving that it is possible. There is a wildly successful company that LISTENS, truly listens to it's raging impossible to please varied large user base. And guess what ? The 10 million customers of that company are so trusting on that company they pay 1/5th of the ME3 price per month to this successful company.

And I try to analyze why is it that they manage to keep such a large and diverse user base satisfied when BW can't seem to do it with the much smaller user base of ME3.

It is easy to just blame the "haters". It takes a lot more guts and skill to actually see what the fuss is all about and try to understand them, instead of dismissing them and telling them to STFU.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:56 .

[chemiclord]

Oh, I get entirely what you are saying.

And I am telling you that you are WRONG, both in your premise (which is flawed because you CAN NOT compare gameplay mechanics with story development... they are NOT the same), and in the arguments you present (you knowingly accept behaviors from Blizzard that you do NOT accept from Bioware).

You have proven it is possible for a game company to listen to fan complaints about game mechanics. Guess what? Bioware does that too.

You have yet to provide satisfactory evidence of Blizzard outright changing their story to the degree that you demand from Bioware (much less that it would necessarily be a GOOD thing to do so considering the mangled mess WoW's lore has become), nor have you provided ANY evidence of the condescension or disrespect that you accuse Bioware of having. In fact, your quotations of their insults ("cheapening" and calling fans "entitled") are not accurate quotations AT ALL.

Blizzard does not "listen" to you anymore than Bioware does. That you think they do is pure favoritism (ironically more equivalent to the religious behavior you mock Bioware for), rather than any scientifically demonstrable fact.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[Renmiri1]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Thane's fate here to not make this thread about his fate. If you truly want to discuss his story arch, stop by one of the threads in the romance forum

We're not really discussing his fate, I'm mearly explaining why Bioware's explination on his storyline....

Yup. They tell me his story line is perfect as is and any disagreement "trivializes it".

I never got that kind of closed mind from Blizzard.

If Tully was to answer like Blizzard he would post his explanation on "Why Thane has to die" and also list reasons why people DISAGREE with his opinion, or "Why Thane doesn't have to die". Listing pros and cons and debating without ego, without "we don't make mistakes" without "you just have an ax to grind".

The end result could still be Thane dying, but I would have felt respected instead of feeling like I was an heretic in church 

[Bfler]

Renmiri1 wrote...
I posted Blizzard's example here to prove a company can and does keep millions of it's users happy, if they show some respect for users opinions.

Hm, "Aren't You Thankful!?" comes to my mind.

[Ninja Stan]

If I understand you correctly, Renmiri1, the crux of your complaint about BioWAre "not listening" to you is that they did not acknowledge your comments specifically or explain specifically to you why they do or do not agree with your opinions, statements, or concerns. That's what your posts are leading me to believe, so please clarify if that is not the case.

REmember, though, that there are hundreds if not thousands of users in the community who also have questions, comments and concerns regarding BioWare's games, and it is simply is not feasible to address each and every one of those questions, comments, and concerns to everyone's satisfaction. Can you imagine trying to talk to everyone on an individual basis? How much time and effort that would take?

Instead, BioWare keeps an eye on the community and, occasionally, engages in active discussion with the community. Remember also that BioWare is populated with game development professionals who develop games for a living. As such, they will also have certain ideas about how they want to make the game. If it seems sometimes like BioWare isn't listening, consider that maybe you're dealing with a feature or story point that BioWare has already made a decision on (e.g. ME3 multiplayer, what happens to LI, new characters, etc.).

Finally, since there are hundreds if not thousands of folks here who love Mass Effect and have ideas and opinions of their own, there will likely be diverse if not conflicting opinions being discussed here. For example, if you wanted multiplayer, but Joe Gamer wants absolutely no multiplayer, and Susan Player wants co-op only and Wombat Fragger wants MP as DLC, those are all conflicting ideas and going in any one direction means potentially disappointing several others.

There are many reasons that might contribute to a feeling of BioWare "not listening." Actually not listening is probably not accurate, considering what BioWare has done with Mass Effect 3 since release.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...


You have yet to provide satisfactory evidence of Blizzard outright changing their story.

WoW lore has actually changed based on user input, as I have mentioned earlier the Horde faction leader was hated by most Horde players and he is going to be deposed soon.

But the main thing here is the adversarial nature of Bioware (and some fans ) to any criticism. Which in case of fans doesn't bother me as people get mighty preachy online... But their devs and PR are also preachy and demeaning.

"Cheapen"
https://twitter.com/...736362599546880

worse 
https://twitter.com/...536281015402497

And you misunderstand me. The easiest thing in the world would be to "leave". But I loved ME1 and ME2, and am enjoying DragonAge Origins. So I know Bioware has a lot of good to offer, to 10 million people one day maybe. They just have to start growing up as writers and as a company. People who come here own your game and enjoy your work. This is not 4chan or Yahoo boards cesspool. We don't come here to troll or just because.. We like the story too, we just want it to be a s good as the previous ones were.

Ninja Stan wrote...

If I understand you correctly, Renmiri1, the crux of your complaint about BioWAre "not listening" to you is that they did not acknowledge your comments specifically or explain specifically to you why they do or do not agree with your opinions, statements, or concerns. That's what your posts are leading me to believe, so please clarify if that is not the case.

 
Blizzard has 10X the ammount of users and is also staffed by professionals. And they manage to make people feel listened to.

If you missed, I linked a post from Blizzard's Lead Developer where he explains to 10 million users the rationales behind the game mechanics they were changing back to what was 6 months before. That post wasnt to ME, it was to all interested users. And he managed to make ME and the person who disagrees with me feel included. How ? By taking ego out of the issue. By not calling those who disagree any bad names. By actually conceding some issues to those who disagree. It was an adult talking to users as they all were adults, not n00bs or haters or casuals or hardcore or whatever label you want to give those who disagree with you.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .

[Renmiri1]

PS: As for Bioware never giving out any hint or hope Thane was curable...

http://twitpic.com/3tck7p

I understand things change but I resent being treated as "having an ax to grind" just for having a good memory about some inconvenient facts.

[Renmiri1]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

BSN logic: "The endings suck because they copied other games!!!! The ending can be improved if they copy games that I like!!!"

And you wonder why people don't feel respected and listened to...

You know, if you actually took your fingers from your ears and stopped chanting "la-lal-la I can't listen to you" you might learn a thing or two. 

PS: Nn to all, 1 am here 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .