226 réponses à ce sujet

[Grogimus]

chemiclord wrote...

You haven't been treated with "contempt" by devs here, either.  You just want to THINK you have been, because they're sticking with a creative vision you particularly don't like.

OP:  After reading your continuing arguments, some of which are after a Moderator made a well thought out post, it comes down to this quote in my humble opinion.  I don't think you've won this argument.  I will give you credit for not being a total jerk about it, but I think it's time to reassess your opinion.

[SpamBot2000]

Hmmm... I believe I have to take Bioware's side on this issue, for precisely the reason I hate the ending. Thane was introduced with a terminal illness, and showing what such an illness leads to is being true to the story they were telling all along, something I believe cannot be said for spaceboy.

I understand your affection for Thane. He was a fascinating character. His death scene was absolutely one of the most moving scenes in the whole series. I understand the writers feeling how removing this tragic inevitability would be, yes, cheapening their efforts. To say that is not to insult you. It is a case of actually upholding the integrity of the work.

And I have to agree that much as I feel Bioware's PR work is at times disrespectful of their fans, I have yet to see any insults being flung by them on these forums. Ackland's response seems perfectly appropriate to me. If it was me getting a response to an issue I cared about, I understand that I might be disappointed in its brevity. But chemiclord seems to me correct in saying you are projecting a dismissive attitude that is not really there.

[Torrible]

chemiclord wrote...

Here's the problem I'm having.

You're projecting condescension and resentment onto something that does not in the least show it. I have YET to see a Bioware response that actually displays ANYTHING of the sort. There was definitely backlash against fans, but that was from other fans and from media outside of Bioware.

By perpetuating the same misinformation over and over, they have managed to create this myth that Bioware is constantly undermining and insulting them. To be fair, I don't see much of that anymore (I mean the accusations) and some of them probably did falsely conflate some of the media's opinions with Bioware's. 

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Hi, you keep on mentioning disrespect from Bioware, for one thing you use the word "entitled" as a remark from them in speech marks;

Can you link me to all these disrespecting remarks from Bioware? Especially the entitled one?

 


I've demanded this from them in the past. The best 'evidence' they could produce was Ray Muzyka's use of the term 'artistic integrity' in his announcement of the EC. There was nothing they could produce that can be construed as an insult by a non-biased person. 

Modifié par Torrible, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[SpamBot2000]

Please, responding to thousands of people saying how spaceboy ruined the whole fictional world they had built over 5 years by suggesting that some of us are just overly needy and just wanted extra teary goodbyes is disrespectful in refusing to acknowledge at all what the substance of the complaint was. Not that ME3 wasn't lacking in the closure department either. They just didn't care enough to put any in there. And 4 months to get that patched in is Epic Fan Service? Again, balls. /Edit: And blowing resources like getting the lead voice actors to give these great speeches that actually are in character unlike the rest of the sorry scene, only for a glorified "Haha, Game Over" screen? Glad that day 1 DLC profit was put to good use fellas. It's a real hoot.

As for people conflating "media opinion" with a corporate PR effort, well wonder why. Like those muppets wrote their own script on whatever gaming site last called fed up customers a menace to the fount of Grand Art that is the mainstream game industry.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[Renmiri1]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Yeah, my post was silly. Still, it's harder to make a new ending than it is to make a new mechanic. This situation is a little bit different in that if they change the ending, there really is no middle ground for the people who liked the ending and if there is a large outcry it would be much more difficult to reverse.

You know, that is a good reason for not changing. But here on this thread I'm not complaining about getting / not getting "my way" on a videogame. I'm comparing the answer fan base criticism gets from Bioware and from Blizzard. Bioware is awful in this aspect, that I've seen. Perhaps it is just after ME3 and the merger with EA, but they are downright condescending and adversarial. It doesn't need to be this way.

If you look at the title of the thread and my first post, I have had experience with other games and their developers and I often didn't get "my way" on stuff. But me and other 10 million users keep happily paying 1/5th of ME3's price per month to them. Why is that ?

There is as way to stick to your guns and still keep most of your customers happy. You just have to show respect for them. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:02 .

[Clayless]

Torrible wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Hi, you keep on mentioning disrespect from Bioware, for one thing you use the word "entitled" as a remark from them in speech marks;

Can you link me to all these disrespecting remarks from Bioware? Especially the entitled one?

 


I've demanded this from them in the past. The best 'evidence' they could produce was Ray Muzyka's use of the term 'artistic integrity' in his announcement of the EC. There was nothing they could produce that can be construed as an insult by a non-biased person. 

Yeah I know, someone once made a thread detailing all the remarks that Bioware made to fans. It must've had over a dozen pages by the time I went in and all they had was one guy on Twitter saying he's going to "Retake Easter" and another one (or the same guy can't fully rememeber) posting a link to an article that liked the ending.

That was it.

Getting back to this thread I'm actually quite shocked that the OP has had two responses now and still he's going on in a rant. Two responses from Bioware?! If you told me I could get two responses from Rare back when I played Goldeneye, or Nintendo back when I played everything else, I'd just laugh and not believe you. If by now he still doesn't understand the difference between a gameplay element and a storyline element I don't think he ever will. As bad as it is, "I didn't like Thane's storyline and Bioware never "fixed" it like Blizzard did with a gameplay element therefore Bioware are terrible" is the definition of an entitled gamer.

[Renmiri1]

Our_Last_Scene wrote..."I didn't like Thane's storyline and Bioware never "fixed" it like Blizzard did with a gameplay element therefore Bioware are terrible" is the definition of an entitled gamer.

I suspect the term "entitled gamer" will be - if it isn't already - the laughing stock of busines schools all over the country when they analyze the fall of the gaming industry. Way to keep your customers happy and promote brand loyalty.. NOT!

I got 2 responses from Bioware ? You mean Ninja-San's nice post here ? I was under the impression he is only a moderator, not a Bioware employee.

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote..."I didn't like Thane's storyline and Bioware never "fixed" it like Blizzard did with a gameplay element therefore Bioware are terrible" is the definition of an entitled gamer.

I suspect the term "entitled gamer" will be - if it isn't already - the laughing stock of busines schools all over the country when they analyze the fall of the gaming industry. Way to keep your customers happy and promote brand loyalty.. NOT!

I got 2 responses from Bioware ? You mean Ninja-San's nice post here ? I was under the impression he is only a moderator, not a Bioware employee.

Just to mention I don't work for Bioware, if I call you entitled it doesn't actually mean Bioware is, despite the fact I'm posting on their forums.

Anyway can you link to that post where Bioware calls their users entitled?

[Renmiri1]

I don't know if they did it publicly but some of their 75 reviewers, paragons of "Journalistic Integrity" did call us that, while defending Bioware's "Artistic Integrity"

The name we were called matters little, we are treated not as customers but as enemies. Or dumbarses who can't see their brilliance. It doesn't have to be this way. Other companies have been wildly successful by treating customers with respect.

PS: I did link a particularly nasty tweet from Chris Priestly, sent after receiving some fan art. I can just hear my MBA marketing professor talking about respecting your customer. THAT would be the laugh of the class.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[Clayless]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I don't know if they did it publicly but some of their 75 reviewers, paragons of "Journalistic Integrity" did call us that, while defending Bioware's "Artistic Integrity"

The name we were called matters little, we are treated not as customers but as enemies. Or dumbarses who can't see their brilliance. It doesn't have to be this way. Other companies have been wildly successful by treating customers with respect.

PS: I did link a particularly nasty tweet from Chris Priestly, sent after receiving some fan art. I can just hear my MBA marketing professor talking about respecting your customer. THAT would be the laugh of the class.

Can you link to anything from Bioware though? Especially that one about them calling their users "entitled"?

[Sajuro]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I don't know if they did it publicly but some of their 75 reviewers, paragons of "Journalistic Integrity" did call us that, while defending Bioware's "Artistic Integrity"

The name we were called matters little, we are treated not as customers but as enemies. Or dumbarses who can't see their brilliance. It doesn't have to be this way. Other companies have been wildly successful by treating customers with respect.

PS: I did link a particularly nasty tweet from Chris Priestly, sent after receiving some fan art. I can just hear my MBA marketing professor talking about respecting your customer. THAT would be the laugh of the class.

must have missed that what page is the link on?
edit:curse you autocorrect!

Modifié par Sajuro, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[Renmiri1]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

So being treated with respect meant more to you than getting a new ending?

No but makes the current ending more bearable 

Some of the bad tweets

Renmiri1 wrote...

"Cheapen"
https://twitter.com/...736362599546880

worse 
https://twitter.com/...536281015402497

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[Renmiri1]

I suggest they try to hire someone from Blizzard, if they can afford it.

[riesenwiesel]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I suggest they try to hire someone from Blizzard, if they can afford it.

Lol, no please spare us.


edit: Even the original ME3 ending is better than the lore breaker Burning Crusade. 

Modifié par riesenwiesel, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .

[Renmiri1]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

I suggest they try to hire someone from Blizzard, if they can afford it.

Lol, no please spare us.


edit: Even the original ME3 ending is better than the lore breaker Burning Crusade. 

But what you fail to see is that WoW was never about plot. It always has been and keeps on being about leveling and raiding and game mechanics. On a story focused series to make radical changes to storytelling is as bad as making radical changes to game mechanics on a game mechanics centric franchise.

They made their name with good stories, personalized to each user's choices. Blizzard never made it's name based on BC lore. It made it's name with raiding.

[Galbrant]

Ah yes.... I should go back to my mediocre Shaman....I am starting to miss him.

[riesenwiesel]

Renmiri1 wrote...

But what you fail to see is that WoW was never about plot. It always has been and keeps on being about leveling and raiding and game mechanics. On a story focused series to make radical changes to storytelling is as bad as making radical changes to game mechanics on a game mechanics centric franchise.

They made their name with good stories, personalized to each user's choices. Blizzard never made it's name based on BC lore. It made it's name with raiding.

WoW is as big as it is, because so many people originally loved the Warcraft lore. Everything else came after that.
Blizzard willingly punched this lore in the face over and over again and you never heard any excuses for it.
How exactly is this different from what Bioware did with Mass Effect?
It's making games more casual at the expense of the lore, because of the big publisher breathing down your neck while counting the money.


What exactly is this doing in the story forums anyway?

Modifié par riesenwiesel, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:35 .

[crimzontearz]

But but but.......ART

[Renmiri1]

I never played Warcraft and have been playing wow for 6 years.

/ Shrug Bored of this thread now.. Think I've said all there was to be said.

TL;DR Bioware, keeping millions of customers happy CAN be done. Just get some new PR people, the ones you have aren't doing you any favors.

[CronoDragoon]

I've been here regularly since March 9th when I beat the game and came here to scorch the endings, and I never saw a disrespectful statement by BioWare. Statement by Ray defending the game by pointing to critic reviews is not disrespectful. It's defending a product that they believe is quality. You are saying that if you released a product that you loved but people hated, you would not try and defend it?

Ray's statement was on the level. Everyone focused on his sentences defending the endings while ignoring sentences like "In spite of this, we realize that we need to practice humility and listen to the feedback from our fans."

Also, about Ninja Stan being a BioWare employee: if he had hypthetically made a post insulting fans, you'd be damn sure it'd be used against BioWare and its "treatment"of its fans, so well-thought out, reasonable posts should be treated similarly.

[crimzontearz]

CronoDragoon wrote...I've been here regularly since March 9th when I beat the game and came here to scorch the endings, and I never saw a disrespectful statement by BioWare. Statement by Ray defending the game by pointing to critic reviews is not disrespectful. It's defending a product that they believe is quality. You are saying that if you released a product that you loved but people hated, you would not try and defend it?Ray's statement was on the level. Everyone focused on his sentences defending the endings while ignoring sentences like "In spite of this, we realize that we need to practice humility and listen to the feedback from our fans."Also, about Ninja Stan being a BioWare employee: if he had hypthetically made a post insulting fans, you'd be damn sure it'd be used against BioWare and its "treatment"of its fans, so well-thought out, reasonable posts should be treated similarly.

I don't know you man, but to me when someone says "we are sorry you thought the endings were sub par" and "We understand you needed more clarity and closure" that is a rather insulting statement


The interview with Jessica was just as insulting and so was the implementation of “refusal"

[CronoDragoon]

crimzontearz wrote...

I don't know you man, but to me when someone says "we are sorry you thought the endings were sub par" and "We understand you needed more clarity and closure" that is a rather insulting statement


The interview with Jessica was just as insulting and so was the implementation of “refusal"

How are either of those statements insulting? We DID need more clarity and closure.

I haven't read the Jessica interview, but Refusal is something many fans explicitly ASKED FOR. "I'd rather take a moral stand and everyone gets wiped out than pick these endings." Well, here it is. You can preserve Shepard's free will to refuse the endings, but it doesn't follow that you should be able to defeat the Reapers without the Crucible.

[crimzontearz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...I don't know you man, but to me when someone says "we are sorry you thought the endings were sub par" and "We understand you needed more clarity and closure" that is a rather insulting statementThe interview with Jessica was just as insulting and so was the implementation of “refusal"

How are either of those statements insulting? We DID need more clarity and closure.I haven't read the Jessica interview, but Refusal is something many fans explicitly ASKED FOR. "I'd rather take a moral stand and everyone gets wiped out than pick these endings." Well, here it is. You can preserve Shepard's free will to refuse the endings, but it doesn't follow that you should be able to defeat the Reapers without the Crucible.

I work for a very large company, Parented by a multinational that dwarves EA many times over. A statement like that is putting the blame, implicitly, on the consumer who did not understand the product. Notice how the verbiage is not "we are sorry our endings were lacking" but "we are sorry YOU FOUND THEM lacking" ...we understood the endings perfectly, and what they meant, yet they were poorly implemented and thematically revolting and left many with no emotional payoff. Clarity and Closure were not the issue, not the way they intended it.


As per refusal, as always bioware listened to what they wanted to hear. Most people as proven by surveys wanted a refusal + conventional victory OR a low ems flat out loss. Those who said I would rather lose meant it as an hyperbole 90% of the time and they too ALSO asked for a different option.....what they got was only a flat out loss implemented also by shooting the star child which is what many players did out of frustration. Like saying "still don't like the starbrat? there, you lose, try again and love the art.