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Listening to your fans / Sticking to your guns. How the pros do it


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#151
CronoDragoon

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Art is not mass marketed.

Books don't come up with adds saying I can make my own Sheppard.

Bait and switch, false advertising and all that. When I bought the game I wasn't aware my RPG was going to turn into emo genocide by Star Brat.


If that is your definition of art then I respect that. Note that this also obligates you to exclude things like Harry Potter or the Dark Knight.

You can make your own Shepard. This isn't virtual reality; you still need to play within the story limits placed by BioWare. And this has always been the case. So that isn't false advertising.

However, I absolutely agree that their statements leading up to the game were misleading to the point of being wreckless. The "no ABC ending" thing is especially heinous.

#152
Atakuma

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.

#153
Torrible

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.


If money is indeed their primary concern, they would have removed the Catalyst from the EC and have Shepard alive (in all endings) while he is reunited with the LI and the Normandy crew unless they have, through some means (single player statistics or otherwise) decided that the vocal BSN users are in fact not a good representative of the consumer base. 


May I suggest an alternative theory? They may actually have artistic integrity.

Modifié par Torrible, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .


#154
Bfler

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CronoDragoon wrote...
They can defend their endings....


When did they defend the ending? They have said almost nothing since release of the game.

#155
Renmiri1

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Atakuma wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.

...

I know the thread is immense with all it's 5 pages but would it kill you to read the first post at least ?

On it I show an example where fans, myself included, DID NOT get waht they wanted on a WoW change and yet didn't feel condescended to by Blizzard. Hence the title of the thread, which you apparently missed too. "Sticking to your guns.. this is how pros do it".

A wildly sucessful videogame company manages to keep 10 million people of all walks of life, all ages and most nationalities reasonably satisfied. Because they LISTEN. Not because they do all of what each of the 10 million want.

#156
Torrible

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Atakuma wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.


Exactly. Addressing most (but not all) of the gripes of the original ending doesn't mean they are not listening. They have merely decided to address the most common grievances (can't possibly please everyone) while trying to seek a compromise between pandering to fans and sticking to their artistic vision.

Modifié par Torrible, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:07 .


#157
CronoDragoon

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.

...

I know the thread is immense with all it's 5 pages but would it kill you to read the first post at least ?

On it I show an example where fans, myself included, DID NOT get waht they wanted on a WoW change and yet didn't feel condescended to by Blizzard. Hence the title of the thread, which you apparently missed too. "Sticking to your guns.. this is how pros do it".

A wildly sucessful videogame company manages to keep 10 million people of all walks of life, all ages and most nationalities reasonably satisfied. Because they LISTEN. Not because they do all of what each of the 10 million want.


Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.

#158
Renmiri1

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Torrible wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.


Exactly. Addressing most (but not all) of the gripes of the original ending doesn't mean they are not listening. They have merely decided to address the most common grievances (can't possibly please everyone) while trying to seek a compromise between pandering to fans and sticking to their artistic vision.



Nice strawman you guys have there

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .


#159
Memnon

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Torrible wrote...

If money is indeed their primary concern, they would have removed the Catalyst from the EC and have Shepard alive and reunited with LI and the Normandy crew unless they have, through some means (single player statistics or otherwise) decided that the vocal BSN users are in fact not a good representative of the consumer base. 


I think this is where the disconnect it - let's face it, money IS their primary concern, as it should be (they're a business after all). A lot of fans believe that making the customer base happy equals money - but how do they maximize the customer base? Mass Effect 1 won them a LOT of fans. So did Dragon Age 1. A lot of people believe that EA has pressured Bioware into making their games more 'accessible' to other gamers (console vs. PC). From a business perspective, this makes sense ... maximize your customer base. Though if you alienate one bloc of customers at the expense of another, what have you won? And if the original bloc of customers were rabid, die-hard fans, and those fans are now apathetic ... well you see wherer I'm going with this

Personally, I didn't mind the streamlining from ME1 to ME2, to ME3 as far as game mechanics are concerned ... though I did NOT like DA2, and I hated the ending of ME3. Those are my personal opinions, and I imagine that they are shared by many - but if I'm in the minority, I'm fine with that ... I'll just take my business elsewhere. Bioware is in the position of trying to please as many people as possible - I don't envy them

#160
3DandBeyond

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chemiclord wrote...

One thing to change a game mechanic.

It's entirely another to completely change how you want to tell a story because some fans complain.

To the latter, I'd tell them largely what Bioware told them. "Don't like our story? Then find someone else who tells the story you want to hear. We're not changing it to suit you. Deal with it."


Uh, problem with that is both a problem for the company and the fans, mostly the company.  Adopt the attitude that your game, your product is set in stone and you will at some point find you can count the number of people playing it on one hand.

When you create a series of games, you are making an unspoken promise, especially when a sequel is meant to carry along the story line from the previous game.  Change that and you have broken the lore of the game that you supposedly hold dear.  You have also abandoned the reason why people play your games in that series.  As well, actually promise fans things and then not deliver on them and at the very least you better open your mouth and talk with them and tell them why.  Fans that keep buying are entering into this kind of contract with you-they love your product/your story and you as a business person treat them with decency.

What Bioware did goes so against what any story teller will do, it goes against all logic, it goes against fans and it negatively affects sales.  None of these things are smart moves.

No one said people did want to hear the story Bioware told-people loved 99% of the story Bioware told.  Bioware had an audience that was there for them no matter what-an audience that was theirs to lose.  They also had a fanbase demographics that would be the envy of any company since ME did not just appeal to teenage boys (no offense to teenage boys) or to Americans (I am an American) or to just men (I am not a man).  I have been amazed at the diversity of its fanbase.  Bioware also enviably had fans that weren't silent when they didn't like something.  I've played all 3 PS3 games of Resistance, which got steadily worse and Resistance 3 was bad.  I didn't care so I never complained.  Companies generally actually do not like customers who don't complain if they don't like something.  You can't learn what you did wrong if people just walk away and decide never to buy your product again.

ME was a story, that we loved.  Bioware screwed it up, not fans.  When you write a story (even a story in a game), you have to have some idea how you want to end it.  That helps to build your roadmap.  As a writer you build hints as far as the ending (for any quesions that need answers), and you just keep building them.  The ending is the place where you say what it all meant and you tie up everything-explain it all.  The ending is based on the story set before the "reader" or player.  When they get to the ending, they should be saying the ending explained all the questions they had.  It shouldn't be explaining questions you never thought of.  It should be tied back to all those hints and clues within the game.  It is the main part, the most important thing in the whole story because it tells the reader or player why they were doing all that they did. 

In an ending you do not create situations or artificial things that the hero must pick from in order to conclude the story.  You follow the story you created.  These endings just dump a new character (he's the thing they needed to hint at all along in ME) onto players and expect people to accept him.  Since there's no foreshadowing of him, there's no reason to care one way or another about him.  He wasn't a part of the story.  And the choices that are there have absolutely nothing, zero, zip, zilch to do with all that we did in 3 games.  Someone pulled them out of their assets.  They are there for only one reason-to funnel players into 3 (or ugh 4) endings.

What was promised was that at the end of ME3 this kind of thing was unnecessary.  No sequel so the endings could vary wildly.  The ending should also have developed naturally from all that the player did before. 

And your idea that it's ok to just tell people (fans) to go away is just so great.  That's really the mature way to deal with things-get people's money, ****** on them, then tell them they are all wet.

If people consistently did that Superman would still be dead and there would be a lot of angry Harry Potter movies demanding their money back for the Deathly Hallows Part2.  No DVD sales of the movie and so on.  Originally the movie makers had decided to kill off Harry, contrary to the book.  Fans found out and got mad.  Warner Brothers, I think it was, decided to be adult about it and didn't start bad mouthing fans, they released the Harry lives ending and sold a lot.

And George Lucas is evidence that creators of a work are not always right.  Very few Star Wars fans thought he made the right decision to use new graphics in the movies, but that was his decision.  People were not running out to buy the Star Wars DVDs because he would not allow the originals to be released on DVD.

Bethesda got criticized for not leaving Fallout 3 open ended for free roam play like they did Oblivion.  They didn't throw a fit and get mad at fans.  They changed it and one of the devs in an interview when asked what he might do differently or change if he made the game again or made new games said he would never end the game.  He admitted his mistake and was man enough to learn from a mistake.

Casey Hudson was fond of repeatedly saying in interviews that the ME stories were as much the fans stories as Bioware's and that the stories were a collaboration between fans and Bioware.  Apparently he never meant that and for some reason you think that's ok.  Every single game company out there all but demands fan feedback-why if not to learn what they might change.  Bioware/EA even have the most persistent connection to fans to data mine how fans play the game-they have the ability to know everything we do in these games.  Why do that if they don't care what we think?

#161
Renmiri1

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.




:lol::ph34r::bandit::D

You think Battlenet forums are polite ???

They are every bit as bad as here, if not worse. But developers and pr people don't get butthurt like here. Gee I wonder if they are more mature.. :whistle:

#162
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CronoDragoon wrote...


Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.



Look at the Diablo 3 board. It is full of hate.

#163
CronoDragoon

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Renmiri1 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.




:lol::ph34r::bandit::D

You think Battlenet forums are polite ???

They are every bit as bad as here, if not worse. But developers and pr people don't get butthurt like here. Gee I wonder if they are more mature.. :whistle:


Oh, right. It's the maturity of the devs that's the problem here.

If the Blizzard boards were as bad as you claim, then I would not have a problem with Blizzard deciding to avoid them. That they chose instead to post does speak well of them, but that does not mean BioWare is bad for choosing to stay away from a cesspool of hate-filled rants. Which is unfortunate, because there were many, many great threads about why the ending was bad with detailed, intelligent arguments presented. I would have loved to see a response. But this was impossible because even the intelligent threads were laced with one-line posts flaming the devs.

#164
Renmiri1

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WoW boards.. Look at teh "nerf / op" endless class discussions.. It would make a sailor blush and George Carlyn red faced.

Ya, ya, Bioware doesn't read their own boards because people here are ruder than the rest of the net.. riiight.

#165
TemplePhoenix

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chemiclord wrote...

I, personally, have no problem calling it art.

I also have no problem calling it rather BAD art.


This.

ME3, like most videogame, movies, books, etc, etc. Is BOTH art and a commercial product. If anything good has come out of this whole thing, it's the number of interesting discussions on how those two facets compete and affect each other; where the line falls between the game's responsibility as an artistic object, and as a commercial one. To what extent should the creator's artistic intentions be beholden to the consumer's rights as a customer, and vice versa? These are the kinds of arguments that will become more prevalent and involved as the medium continues to evolve.

Also, as chemiclord says, art does not suddenly cease to become art if it is bad. It merely becomes bad, or unsuccesful, art.

#166
Clayless

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The OP is back.

OP can you link me to that post where Bioware calls their fans "entitled" like you put quotation marks around?

#167
CronoDragoon

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Renmiri1 wrote...

WoW boards.. Look at teh "nerf / op" endless class discussions.. It would make a sailor blush and George Carlyn red faced.

Ya, ya, Bioware doesn't read their own boards because people here are ruder than the rest of the net.. riiight.


BioWare clearly does read their boards, because everything in the EC addresses compaints voiced over and over again here. That they don't POST is a separate matter.

You clearly have experience with a company that, arguably, interacts the best with their fanbase. They are the exception. Take it from someone who played Final Fantasy XI for seven years and had to deal with THOSE devs; BioWare looks like saints in comparison.

#168
Renmiri1

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When I bought a game that you could import characters from 1 to 2 and 3 and that advertised itself as shaped by the player's choices, I was expecting a game that did that.

I got exactly that on ME1 and ME2. Then ME3 came and it isn't like that. Bait and switch.

If I knew ME3 was going to be "emo Ghost Hitler from Space, and stfu about those player choices" I would probably never buy the entire series. I was roped into buying it this march because my friends had told me so many good things about the series. Those same friends told me to not bother with ME3, after they finished playing. I wish they had told me sooner.

#169
CronoDragoon

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It is shaped by your choices. The correct complaint is that you (and I) don't like the choices presented.

#170
Renmiri1

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CronoDragoon wrote...

It is shaped by your choices. The correct complaint is that you (and I) don't like the choices presented.

Really ? So why are teh Rachni there, why is Udina council...

Please, if you want to debate at least treat me like I have IQ above a leaf of lettuce. The choices we made over the course of 3 games ammount to very little and you know it.

#171
Fusiontron

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I've seen no effort made to explain what this art is. Honestly, even a vague explanation to the ending would be helpful. That's basically why there are so many conspiracy theories on this board. But then again, that's what they said they wanted.

#172
Torrible

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No it isn't. The entire art debate is a straw man - Bioware makes games to make money; thus they need people to buy their games; thus they need people to like their games; thus they need to listen to customer feedback.

They do, unfortunately a lot of people seem to think listening to feedback means Bioware does exactly what they want them to do.

...

I know the thread is immense with all it's 5 pages but would it kill you to read the first post at least ?

On it I show an example where fans, myself included, DID NOT get waht they wanted on a WoW change and yet didn't feel condescended to by Blizzard. Hence the title of the thread, which you apparently missed too. "Sticking to your guns.. this is how pros do it".

A wildly sucessful videogame company manages to keep 10 million people of all walks of life, all ages and most nationalities reasonably satisfied. Because they LISTEN. Not because they do all of what each of the 10 million want.


A WOW player doesn't like that a certain class is overpowered. A poll proves most players feel the same way. Patch is released. Feedback is taken care of. Move on to next feedback. 

Compared to WOW, players of ME are going to have vastly different expectations because

-ME is story driven 
-Various choices in-game will mean players are going to have vastly different experiences

How do you propose they handle all that different feedback and expectations? Are they going to have a poll for conflicting demands? Are they going to be releasing patches to include branching choices that ensure that everyone is happy?

Addressing feedback to a game like WOW is entirely different to one such as ME. ME3 is not a game that can be modified in stages (except the multiplayer).

Modifié par Torrible, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:40 .


#173
CronoDragoon

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Renmiri1 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

It is shaped by your choices. The correct complaint is that you (and I) don't like the choices presented.

Really ? So why are teh Rachni there, why is Udina council...

Please, if you want to debate at least treat me like I have IQ above a leaf of lettuce. The choices we made over the course of 3 games ammount to very little and you know it.


My genophage is cured and Mordin died for it. My geth and quarians found peace. My ME2 squad were all alive and well by the end of ME3, both because they survived the Suicide Mission and the ME3 sidequests. My geth, after finding peace, were destroyed by the necessity of destroying the Reapers. All of these things are choices I made that affected the shape of the ME universe.

Yes, some things are railroaded. Udina, the rachni, Cerberus turning on you. Saying "some choices turn out the same" isn't the same as "choice doesn't matter" in ME3.

#174
3DandBeyond

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.


I know nothing about what Blizzard does, but I do know what Bioware said and I know a lot of what fans have said.  By and large what you consider flaming are posts that start off with how much people have loved ME games and even most of ME3.

You really do need to understand the chronology of events.  ME3 ended, fans wondered if this was a joke, then many thought that since there's a new trend in gaming (making people pay for the ending to a game in DLC) that that blue screen at the end that said buy DLC meant that this was not the real ending.  People told Bioware they didn't like the ending.  They were ignored.  Then Bioware said that after enough people had had time to experience the ending, they would explain it.  Then, their surrogates that get paid by EA advertising (game reviewers) began calling fans whiners and entitled.  I have lived long enough to be able to tell you I have never seen this done with any product ever before.  A game is a product like anything else and is not sacrosanct.  Consumers have a right to complain without being called names for voicing those complaints.  I have seen an incredible amount of ignorant reviews by these paid reviewers and Bioware should have stepped in and told them to knock it off.  They should have.  But Bioware decided to heap it on.  They gave interviews saying they'd stick to their artistic integrity.  They still ignored fans.

Retake fans made videos that told how much they loved Bioware and their games and especially ME and then they tried to explain what they didn't like in the endings.  Bioware went on twitter to explain plotholes in the ending.  The mass relays didn't explode badly enough to destroy star systems.  They also said on twitter and in interviews that they didn't know why people thought the galaxy would be a mess and people would be stranded.  The reason was because it was in the damn games in at least 2 places.  What would you call someone that doesn't get that-a savant?

There are many examples of this-they used twitter to explain away plot holes and to imply that people were too stupid not to understand that what is shown in the game isn't what they meant.  How do you have a discussion with someone like that?  And yet, people repeatedly begged Bioware to talk, to have a real discussion so we might understand them and they might see what we are saying.  Most companies take that initiative to talk to customers, they don't sit mute as customers beg to talk.

Bioware just decided to only say what they wanted to say so they controlled the spin-they never wanted to have any kind of open dialogue with fans and they used surrogates to continually insult people that LOVED them.  If you get trash talked by someone you loved, how do you feel?  And do you consider the "silent treatment" an adult, mature  response?  I don't, especially not for a business.  But they kept one upping themselves, making it worse.  They released the FAQ for the extended cut, explaining they'd have an ending that clarified things that they had stated fans didn't understand, but that they were proud of their art and what they'd created.  The implications were obvious.  The ending was too smart and creative for us to understand so they'd add pictures and finger puppets to explain it all.

Then, after that there was an announcement that they would start a discussion with fans--a discussion of what DA3 would be about.  Ok, most fans instantly gave the middle finger right back at Bioware.  A discussion with fans over ME3 would be customer service, a discussion with fans over DA3 is marketing.

And then came clarity.  The EC shows just how little forethought went into the ending.  The scene that's now included of teammates being picked up in London is well-done but nonsensical, but it is there to fill a hole they had not thought about.  The scene of Joker running away is the same.  The jungle planet scene, the same.  The new "new...DNA" meaning for Synthesis is the same.  The change in what the Crucible is and does, is the same.  Now it's a big energy beam so it's not space magic.  Nope, now the Citadel with the 3 choices is space magic because it transforms the Crucible's beam. 

The podcast announcing the launch is further anti-fan stuff and then we have the awesome refusal and destroy endings.  Destroy is pretty much the same and a real slam at anyone that wanted something better.  Refuse, it's obvious what that is.  The question isn't why Bioware has never talked to fans-that's obvious as well.  They've hated fans since they found out that script was leaked before ME3 was finished, hated them more when they complained about release day DLS-From Ashes, and really don't think fans are worth much now.  The question should be why are fans still talking to Bioware.

#175
CronoDragoon

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3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Did the Blizzard boards contain dozens of threads flaming the devs, calling them stupid, calling them lazy, calling for their jobs, etc? Because that, to me, explains why BioWare didn't come to the board and explain themselves.


I know nothing about what Blizzard does, but I do know what Bioware said and I know a lot of what fans have said.  By and large what you consider flaming are posts that start off with how much people have loved ME games and even most of ME3.


Not talking about those; posts that started out that way were rarely flames. You have selective memory and do not understand the chronology of events if you can't remember all the posts that ONLY called for people's firing, called devs out by name as stupid or lazy or whatever, and generally derailed threads no matter the content. Exhibit A; The Final Hours App thread. THIS IS STILL HAPPENING.

In reponse to your last question my answer is I have no idea why someone like you still bothers with BioWare, if that's how you see everything.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .