226 réponses à ce sujet

[Torrible]

Stornskar wrote...

Torrible wrote...

If money is indeed their primary concern, they would have removed the Catalyst from the EC and have Shepard alive and reunited with LI and the Normandy crew unless they have, through some means (single player statistics or otherwise) decided that the vocal BSN users are in fact not a good representative of the consumer base. 

I think this is where the disconnect it - let's face it, money IS their primary concern, as it should be (they're a business after all). A lot of fans believe that making the customer base happy equals money - but how do they maximize the customer base? Mass Effect 1 won them a LOT of fans. So did Dragon Age 1. A lot of people believe that EA has pressured Bioware into making their games more 'accessible' to other gamers (console vs. PC). From a business perspective, this makes sense ... maximize your customer base. Though if you alienate one bloc of customers at the expense of another, what have you won? And if the original bloc of customers were rabid, die-hard fans, and those fans are now apathetic ... well you see wherer I'm going with this

Personally, I didn't mind the streamlining from ME1 to ME2, to ME3 as far as game mechanics are concerned ... though I did NOT like DA2, and I hated the ending of ME3. Those are my personal opinions, and I imagine that they are shared by many - but if I'm in the minority, I'm fine with that ... I'll just take my business elsewhere. Bioware is in the position of trying to please as many people as possible - I don't envy them

If not for the ending, they would have managed to please both sets of fans. Sure, there would still be complaints about stuff like the autodialogue, but the game is always going to have imperfections due to development budget and time restraints. 

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

WoW boards.. Look at teh "nerf / op" endless class discussions.. It would make a sailor blush and George Carlyn red faced.

Ya, ya, Bioware doesn't read their own boards because people here are ruder than the rest of the net.. riiight.

BioWare clearly does read their boards, because everything in the EC addresses compaints voiced over and over again here. That they don't POST is a separate matter.

You clearly have experience with a company that, arguably, interacts the best with their fanbase. They are the exception. Take it from someone who played Final Fantasy XI for seven years and had to deal with THOSE devs; BioWare looks like saints in comparison.

They selectively used certain things that would not fundamentally change their so-called creation, which is actually an amalgamation of other people's work.  They never allowed for any content that actively challenged the main problem with the kid, because someone must have fallen in love with that stupid thing.  You do not get to bring into the discussion anything meaningful that destroys the "logic" the kid promotes.  That has and always will be the main problem with having to deal with the kid.

But the kid should not even be there.  There's no foreshadowing of his existence in any meaningful way.  When Shepard meets him, the player should be saying, "I know who you are," not "who the hell are you?"   Even Shepard should have a clue about the kid.  That's how you tell a story.

What game companies do is the problem.  For too long now they have gotten the idea that their products are great no matter what.  We accept bugs and get games that are patched on day one.  We consistently accept things we would never accept in any other product.  And game companies know this.  For far too long we've just gona along and if we buy a game we don't like, we sell it to someone else or give it away.  Well, that's not a great solution anymore either, since a lot of value is lost because if you buy a game used that has an online feature you have to pay for online play.  And a lot of people don't have the option to return the games they don't like.  Some stores will only exchange games for the same title.

We need to start being consumers.  It's our money after all.  But, I do think this is also why game companies like to target the teenage boy audience.  They are the least likely to be spending their own money on the games (many do I know, but as the Aunt of boys who has bough way too many games for them I know they don't often buy them), and they are the least likely to complain.  They will just say a game sucks and go play another game their Aunt bought them.

[chemiclord]

I'm not even sure Blizzard's approach is the best when it comes to narrative development.

"LOL whatevs, idc, we'll change whatevs u want." That's Blizzard's approach to "storytelling", if that's what you even want to call it at this point.

[Ghaleon]

Difference between Bioware and Blizzard, Blizzard is actually a good development studio Bioware use to be but not any longer.

Dragonage 2 was start of it i think then Tortanic and now me3, bioware is no longer the good development studio they were when made games like Jade Empire Mass effect 1.

Modifié par Ghaleon80, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:20 .

[Renmiri1]

Whatever you personal feelings about it, it shows it is possible to listen to your fans, even if you have a large fan base. And is wildly successful

[xsdob]

What story element, not gameplay but a cinematic scene or narrative plot point in wow, did the dev's change per fan outrage?

I'm curious if that is common and not just gameplay twecks, otherwise I could say ME3 listens to the fans most with all the changes they did for multiplayer.

Modifié par xsdob, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:25 .

[Renmiri1]

Garrosh, new leader of the Horde faction since Cataclysm is hated by 90% of the fanbase. He is getting outed and Thrall (beloved by all) is coming back.

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...

They selectively used certain things that would not fundamentally change their so-called creation, which is actually an amalgamation of other people's work.  They never allowed for any content that actively challenged the main problem with the kid, because someone must have fallen in love with that stupid thing.  You do not get to bring into the discussion anything meaningful that destroys the "logic" the kid promotes.  That has and always will be the main problem with having to deal with the kid.

But the kid should not even be there.  There's no foreshadowing of his existence in any meaningful way.  When Shepard meets him, the player should be saying, "I know who you are," not "who the hell are you?"   Even Shepard should have a clue about the kid.  That's how you tell a story.

What game companies do is the problem.  For too long now they have gotten the idea that their products are great no matter what.  We accept bugs and get games that are patched on day one.  We consistently accept things we would never accept in any other product.  And game companies know this.  For far too long we've just gona along and if we buy a game we don't like, we sell it to someone else or give it away.  Well, that's not a great solution anymore either, since a lot of value is lost because if you buy a game used that has an online feature you have to pay for online play.  And a lot of people don't have the option to return the games they don't like.  Some stores will only exchange games for the same title.

We need to start being consumers.  It's our money after all.  But, I do think this is also why game companies like to target the teenage boy audience.  They are the least likely to be spending their own money on the games (many do I know, but as the Aunt of boys who has bough way too many games for them I know they don't often buy them), and they are the least likely to complain.  They will just say a game sucks and go play another game their Aunt bought them.

I agree with everything you said about the problems that still exist in the game. What I said is that everything in the EC are attempts to solve problems clearly brought up many times on this board. That is not to say the EC solved ALL the problems, though.

About your game companies paragraph: I don't know about you, but I consistently dealt with BioWare bugs precisely because their games are great. I don't buy Elder Scrolls games because I don't believe it would be worth the bugs to me. That IS being a responsible consumer. I'm sorry you still feel like you didn't get your money's worth with ME3, but now that the EC is out - directly a result of fans NOT simply dealing with the status of a game - I've played through it 3 times and think it's a fantastic game all around. The ending is not great. That doesn't mean I'm being irresponsible for thinking the game is now worth my money. It doesn't mean that you are being irresponsible for thinking the opposite.

Again, just to be clear, I was a Retaker with a sig and everything. I was not satisfied with my product, and made my feelings clear on the matter. The EC has placated me, though. I fail to see what is wrong in feeling this way.

[DirtySHISN0]

I didn't twig that you were referring to WoW until i saw the word throttled. Then i remembered why i don't play WoW anymore, why blizzard isn't bioware and why i wouldn't like to see a Mass Effect MMORPG.

The answer is;- done badly.

Pandas. That is all.

[Renmiri1]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Again, just to be clear, I was a Retaker with a sig and everything. I was not satisfied with my product, and made my feelings clear on the matter. The EC has placated me, though. I fail to see what is wrong in feeling this way.

Nothing wrong. I just wish they had made the effort to make most of us feel as happy as you are.

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

I didn't twig that you were referring to WoW until i saw the word throttled. Then i remembered why i don't play WoW anymore, why blizzard isn't bioware and why i wouldn't like to see a Mass Effect MMORPG.

The answer is;- done badly.

Pandas. That is all.

 

I raise your pandas with a baby krogan 

Ya I was WTF for a long time with the panda idea. I am on the Beta and Pandaria is pretty good but definitely not as epic as Cataclysm or Wrath. But hey, they added a lot of good stuff, including bringing permanent tree form for druids back, like we users begged so I'm happy

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[CronoDragoon]

Renmiri1 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Again, just to be clear, I was a Retaker with a sig and everything. I was not satisfied with my product, and made my feelings clear on the matter. The EC has placated me, though. I fail to see what is wrong in feeling this way.

Nothing wrong. I just wish they had made the effort to make most of us feel as happy as you are.

I do, too. Would have loved for them to take a month more and do more with the EC. Still want them to remove the stupid geth/EDI deaths in Destroy. Still would have preferred no Catalyst. But the general feeling I got after the original endings was utter despair (about the ME universe, not my life in general). I feel that the EC does a lot to actually make the ending uplifting and bittersweet like they originally intended. Do I think it puzzling why they felt the ending needed to be "bittersweet" to begin with? Yes. 

[devSin]

N-Seven wrote...

Leah deserves a better ending.

The leaked development plan showed the possibility of two expansions for Diablo III (and we know there will be at least one, without question).

Leah's story may not even be over. And although it doesn't really bother me, I'd be surprised if it's not something they plan to address in the future.

Sanunes wrote...

There has been some complaints recently towards Blizzard because of the repair cost boost with the high level gear and the people on the Diablo 3 boards were actively complaining and requesting Blizzard change it and as far as I can tell it has fallen on deaf ears, which is exactly the complaints I am hearing from the complaints around here.

False.

They realized that it created a scenario where normal wear and tear (the reduction of item durability based on simple usage) was leading to obscene repair costs, and so they halved the rate at which durability decreases from simply engaging in combat to mitigate this (and if it ends up being insufficient, they will look at further adjustments or simply reevaluate the mechanic and look for new solutions—that's why they're Blizzard).

[chemiclord]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Garrosh, new leader of the Horde faction since Cataclysm is hated by 90% of the fanbase. He is getting outed and Thrall (beloved by all) is coming back.

Ah... so they completely retconned Garrosh's leadership and removed him retroactively from the game entirely?

Because that is what you're asking Bioware to do.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Garrosh, new leader of the Horde faction since Cataclysm is hated by 90% of the fanbase. He is getting outed and Thrall (beloved by all) is coming back.

Ah... so they completely retconned Garrosh's leadership and removed him retroactively from the game entirely?

Because that is what you're asking Bioware to do.

Space Ghost was in Me1, ME2 or ME3 before the ending ? Where ?

[deatharmonic]

I can understand where the OP is coming from in regards to the interaction between Bioware and the fans, although when I think of them mishandling customer relations the EMS issue is the thing that springs to mind, not the EC. They did not handle that well, and as a customer I can understand how many people felt insulted because they had not been told the truth in regards to MP not interacting with SP. Furthermore, it surprised me that no one on behalf Bioware had simply come out and said 'ok, this is what went wrong, this is how we'll fix it. Personally that annoyed me more than anything, devs denying the issue existed and then later when it was too apparent to deny, there wasn't a single word from them. This is my point, a simple statement about the issue rather than keeping quite would stop me as a customer from thinking they have no humility, don't want to take responsibility for their own mistake by owning up and didn't really care about customer relations.

To be clear I'm not accusing Bioware of lacking humility, shirking responsibility and neglecting customer relations. I'm trying to show how their mishandling of issues/relations can lead to people having that perception of them.

[chemiclord]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Space Ghost was in Me1, ME2 or ME3 before the ending ? Where ?

He was in ME3, published and released.

You want Bioware to retroactively retcon and remove him entirely from an already published work.  The closest WoW analogy would be to not just replace Garrosh, but retcon Garrosh completely from the game's lore and make it as if the character and the events surrounding that character never happened.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANY company that would cater to you on that score, Blizzard included (and that's from a company that pretty much cares less than jack **** about their lore).  Your double standard continues to show.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Space Ghost was in Me1, ME2 or ME3 before the ending ? Where ?

He was in ME3, published and released.

You want Bioware to retroactively retcon and remove him entirely from an already published work.  The closest WoW analogy would be to not just replace Garrosh, but retcon Garrosh completely from the game's lore and make it as if the character and the events surrounding that character never happened.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANY company that would cater to you on that score, Blizzard included (and that's from a company that pretty much cares less than jack **** about their lore).  Your double standard continues to show.

Nice strawman you have there.

I have said in the thread title and pretty much all my posts in this thread that I am ok with not getting what I want. I just want to be treated as an adult who is buying a product that was advertised as "X" and what I got when I opened the package was "Y". I resent being told I'm too dumb to understand "Y", or told "we did Y and that's it, deal with it".

[Kathleen321]

This really applies to nearly every sequel I've ever played.

[timj2011]

 I read a few pages and...Is somebody really comparing game play changes in WOW to story changes in Mass Effect? ARE YOU SERIOUS!? I hope you lose your ability to think, because you are not doing to well at it.

Seriously though, just listen to yourself for like, one second.

Modifié par timj2011, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .

[chemiclord]

Renmiri1 wrote...

 I resent being told I'm too dumb to understand "Y", or told "we did Y and that's it, deal with it".

YOU WEREN'T TOLD THAT!!! 

Holy ****ing ****.  That is the ENTIRE POINT!  You... were... not... disrespected.  You... were... not... insulted.  There is NOTHING that Bioware has said that was even REMOTELY insulting... except to people who WANT to be insulted, and will look for any reason to be.

[Renmiri1]

timj2011 wrote...

 I read a few pages and...Is somebody really comparing game play changes in WOW to story changes in Mass Effect? ARE YOU SERIOUS!? I hope you lose your ability to think, because you are not doing to well at it.

Seriously though, just listen to yourself for like, one second.

Your eloquence humbles me

NOT!

chemiclord wrote...


YOU WEREN'T TOLD THAT!!! 

Holy ****ing ****.  That is the ENTIRE POINT!  You... were... not... disrespected.  You... were... not... insulted.  There is NOTHING that Bioware has said that was even REMOTELY insulting... except to people who WANT to be insulted, and will look for any reason to be.

 

You told me the latter yourself 

Meh, forget it.. It seems you have been here too long. You think getting pissed on feels like rain, who am I to argue about how you feel ?

I was pretty shocked with Bioware's customer service but I have had good experiences in the past. You are welcome to disagree, you just won't change my mind.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:49 .

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote... I resent being told I'm too dumb to understand "Y", or told "we did Y and that's it, deal with it".

YOU WEREN'T TOLD THAT!!! Holy ****ing ****.  That is the ENTIRE POINT!  You... were... not... disrespected.  You... were... not... insulted.  There is NOTHING that Bioware has said that was even REMOTELY insulting... except to people who WANT to be insulted, and will look for any reason to be.

I disagree. I already stated why. If you were not offended cool, I am glad....but as you see, many where and if the rumor that both Casey and Mac are being demoted turns out to be true...then what?

[chemiclord]

All I have to say in regards to your reasons is if Bioware's statements so far have insulted you... I don't know how you go through the day and not be incensed to the point of rage by lunchtime.

No one was pissed on. THAT'S what you don't want to get. That's what you REFUSE to understand. You WANT to be pissed on, so you're calling the rain ******.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

All I have to say in regards to your reasons is if Bioware's statements so far have insulted you... I don't know how you go through the day and not be incensed to the point of rage by lunchtime.

No one was pissed on. THAT'S what you don't want to get. That's what you REFUSE to understand. You WANT to be pissed on, so you're calling the rain ******.

I love it how you respect other people's opiniions. 

I'm sorry but you may not tell me how I should feel. All you can do is tell me YOU didn't feel insulted, which I think you made abundantly clear. 


PS: Gotta admit that you asked questions, showed interest and gave me the sense you care a little bit, which is more than Bioware ever did 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .

[hoodaticus]

chemiclord wrote...

One thing to change a game mechanic.

It's entirely another to completely change how you want to tell a story because some fans complain.

To the latter, I'd tell them largely what Bioware told them. "Don't like our story? Then find someone else who tells the story you want to hear. We're not changing it to suit you. Deal with it."

When did Bioware assign its copyright to fans to hire a game company to change the ending and market it?