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If Synthesis is "space magic" then so is....


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#276
o Ventus

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Raelen wrote...

The crucible was the result of perhaps hundreds (as far as we know) of cycles contributing to and refining this thing...It's not as simple as saying Liara knew about the Protheans so she would know about all the cycles before hand (Which by the way she specifically states that there is little to NO data about the cycle before the Protheans...AND add to that the fact that she hardly turns out to be an expert.  In the very first time we meet her she MISTAKENLY activates her prison and can't find a way out. Plus almost all of her assumptions about the Protheans and even her own race's history and the Protheans involvement in it come out as blindly wrong.).


Bold #1- She also says she's never seen a stasis projector like that one before. "Expert" just means she has a more extensive knowledge than most other people would in a certain field. It doesn't mean she's all-knowing about something.

Bold #2- Because the asari government was intentionally keeping that information hidden from the galactic public. I don't see how this has anything to do with Liara.


You want to use semantics as an argument?  Then focusing on one specific thing to the exclusion of others IS disregarding.


It's not semantics, nor did I exclude the other points. I acknowledged that they were there, I just focused on one because it struck me as odd. Or did you not read that part?


And yes, I do believe that including all the intricacies, all the science behind it, and all the very specific functions of the Crucible would NOT be extremely pertinent.  A person drives a car, I would challenge them to explain every single piece of it, it's function, what it's made of, why its necessary, how the combustion works down to the physics of it and mathematics of it...etc. 


Yeah, and random Joe Civilian is not reasonably expected to be extremely educated in how automobiles work. It's a vastly different case when you enlist HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS of engineers for the sole purpose of constructing this highly advanced device. Again, how in the entire f**k would including the function of the Crucible in the blueprints be impertinent? You have never explained that to me.

#277
Eluril

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet writing is subjective just like fan fiction while I don't hear outcries about space magic from Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica.


Because it's usually explained, or is sensical, or the engineers in the series don't act like thier heads are full of lead.

But most of all, doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.
 

Not by real science like the Force, Borg, or robots getting pregnant by humans.


Just stop arguing with these guys. See they're "Super sci-fi hard hard super hard sci-fi hard I mean rock hard" badasses because they can read a few lines of text in a codex or wiki and that makes them judge of what is acceptable to a science-fiction (NOTICE THE WORD "FICTION") universe.

#278
o Ventus

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Raelen wrote...

*Ninja Edit*  I would like to ask, though, are people insisting that it is an impossibility that an advanced technology could be capable of doing something such as synthesis beyond the races in Mass Effects current understanding of their universe?  And I mean this regardless of the timing, or lack of preperation for  the introduction of the element.


When a series like Mass Effect at least attempts to follow real world theoretical physics and scientific conventions, yeah, it's a little impossible to genetically rewrite every living organism in the entire galaxy, bypassing any and all anatomical and biological differences, and doing it in an instantaneous fashion.

#279
Krunjar

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o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

No in fact just re read all youre replies to me to be sure. You didn;t mention that it was the crucible you where talking about till just before I called you on it. And since I was talking about a plot device at the "last minute" was pretty clear I was talking about the catalyst.


Literally everybody (Except you, I guess) had been talking about the Crucible up to that point when they were referencing a "last minute plot device". I didn't think I had to point it out. Before you make rabid assertions, at least doa  little background research.


Actually they where talking about excactly how you define "sace magic" and it's roll in a plot. It was you who decided that I was talking about the crucible when I talked about a last minute plot development. The original discussion covered a number of things the crucible perhaps being one of them.

#280
Blueprotoss

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Not by real science like the Force, Borg, or robots getting pregnant by humans.


The force in Star Wars is the franchise's "Phlebotinum". Same goes for Star Trek's dilithium, etc. It's part of the fiction in the science fiction.

The Borg? Seriously? Nano-tech man. That's hardly hard to explain with science. It's fiction because we can't quite do it ourselves... yet.

Those Cyclons aren't robots. They are more like clone bodies with implanted minds. The cloning we can do, and the general idea of mind transplantation is sciency with a good bit of fiction.

Yet the force is explained by magical bacteria, there's a lot than nanomachines to the Borg, and the human cylons are just robots like the normal cylons.

#281
Giantdeathrobot

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In the hope that this thread is not beyond redemption...

Look, when you are introduced to a sci-fi universe, you need accept certain deviations from reality in order to make the universe interesting (remember, science fiction). in Mass Effect,s case, this means, well, the the titular effect. Eezo can alter the mass of an object when going through an electric current. There's lots of technical sounding mumbo-jumbo behind it, but the gist of it is that this phlebotinum allows you to say ''screw Newton'' and go faster than light while lifting people with you mind and all that assorted jazz. It's accepted by the viewer because the entire universe is based on it; they didn't name the series after it for nothing. ME is hardly the only sci-fi franchise to use such things; in fact, as far as soft-hard scifi goes, it's probably closer to the middle, going a bit softer as the series progresses (Project Lazarus...). But mostly everything is explained in-universe, Biotics get several Codex pages, as does space travel, its implications and its limitations. It's not space magic because it doesn't just happen; there's a detailled explanation behind it and it may seem ridiculous at times, but again, science fiction.

Synthesis, however, just happens. All we know is that Shepard's ''energy'' will be ''dispersed'' in order to ''combine organics and synthetics into a new DNA''. And it will do this to the whole galaxy, trillions upon trillions of life-forms, instantly. That's all the explanation we ever get. I gave all the available explanation for synthesis in two lines. For a series that at least tried to be consistent and generally grounded itself into (soft) science, that's way out there. We can theorize how Destroy works (sort of an EMP pulse that disables synthetics, nothing out of place), we can understsnd how Control works (flip a switch, Shepard is the new manager, orders Reapers to begin their galactic community service at once) but Synthesis is  a feat of technology that seems far beyond the rest. Affecting all the Reapers (easy, there's what a couple thousand of them? Cerberus themselves were making progress on that front) or all the synthetic life-forms in the galaxy (there aren't too many, and they all have Reaper code for easier tracking, hell maybe that's why EDI and the Geth absolutely have to be destroyed) is one thing, but every living being in the galaxy? Changing them to the very molecule without any sort of known side effect and making them perfect peace-lovers who glow green instantly? That's a whole another scale. It breaks the rules of the universe by virtue of just being too much, not being explained, and not seeming to belong into the technical limitations and established themes of the universe. Being able to bend mass with a specific fictional element does not mean that a radical change down to the very atom of each and every being in the galaxy instantly and harmlessly is acceptable, period.

An analogy; take Fallout. It has magical radiation that does all sort of things, from making scorpions huge and aggressive to turning humans into very long lived, cancer-ridden Ghouls. It has portable laser and plasma weapons (which is very high tech even in the ME universe). It has all sorts of implausible science-y stuff, culminating with a person being separated from their brain and still living, to the point of being able to hold a conversation with it. Why? 50's Science! meets Rule of Fun/Funny. It's how the universe has worked since day 1, and it's accepted as being part of the setting. That does not mean that anything goes, however,; if Gandalf suddendly appeared and cast a spell that make the Earth radiant and beautiful again and brainwashed every Raider out there to hug fluffy bunnies and offer cookies to passing folks, fans would call bull****. Why? It's not less implausible than having a chat with you very own disembodied brain. But it comes out of nowhere, is not even explained one tiny bit, and it generally ruins the setting.

That's why it's viewed as space magic. Not only because it's implausible/impossible, but because it doesn't fit the setting at all. If this was 2001: A Space Odyssey (which was only hard sci-fi when it wanted to, the rest was pure fantasy) or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or another piece of non-serious or utterly esoteric sci-fi, Synthesis would pass as normal. In a setting that at least tries to take itself seriously, it just utterly wrecks the willing suspension of disbelief.



TLDR: It's not only that it's implausible, it's that it doesn't fit the universe and comes completely out of left field to radically alter the plot and the very fabric of the setting.

#282
o Ventus

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Krunjar wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

No in fact just re read all youre replies to me to be sure. You didn;t mention that it was the crucible you where talking about till just before I called you on it. And since I was talking about a plot device at the "last minute" was pretty clear I was talking about the catalyst.


Literally everybody (Except you, I guess) had been talking about the Crucible up to that point when they were referencing a "last minute plot device". I didn't think I had to point it out. Before you make rabid assertions, at least doa  little background research.


Actually they where talking about excactly how you define "sace magic" and it's roll in a plot. It was you who decided that I was talking about the crucible when I talked about a last minute plot development. The original discussion covered a number of things the crucible perhaps being one of them.


Selective reading is a blessing, I guess.

Did you or did you not see the part of my post where I specifically say "when they were referencing a last minute plot device"?

#283
Blueprotoss

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AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so your lying to yourself then, cuz I read my comments and I said Sci-fi is built around a level of Science thats its called Science Fiction not Super Fantasy

so you need to stop putting words in people mouths and if you find this an insult I feel sorry for you

Yet you keep on lieing to make yourself look good based on personal beliefs instead of the facts.


lying because I quoted myself, just stop talking before I do insult you

Yet you already did.

#284
AresKeith

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Eluril wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet writing is subjective just like fan fiction while I don't hear outcries about space magic from Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica.


Because it's usually explained, or is sensical, or the engineers in the series don't act like thier heads are full of lead.

But most of all, doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.
 

Not by real science like the Force, Borg, or robots getting pregnant by humans.


Just stop arguing with these guys. See they're "Super sci-fi hard hard super hard sci-fi hard I mean rock hard" badasses because they can read a few lines of text in a codex or wiki and that makes them judge of what is acceptable to a science-fiction (NOTICE THE WORD "FICTION") universe.


and notice the word science, even tho its fiction, it still needs to work on the level of science, nothing in ME1 and 2 happened in the way Synthesis did

#285
Krunjar

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o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

No in fact just re read all youre replies to me to be sure. You didn;t mention that it was the crucible you where talking about till just before I called you on it. And since I was talking about a plot device at the "last minute" was pretty clear I was talking about the catalyst.


Literally everybody (Except you, I guess) had been talking about the Crucible up to that point when they were referencing a "last minute plot device". I didn't think I had to point it out. Before you make rabid assertions, at least doa  little background research.


Actually they where talking about excactly how you define "sace magic" and it's roll in a plot. It was you who decided that I was talking about the crucible when I talked about a last minute plot development. The original discussion covered a number of things the crucible perhaps being one of them.


Selective reading is a blessing, I guess.

Did you or did you not see the part of my post where I specifically say "when they were referencing a last minute plot device"?


Oh the Irony ^_^

#286
Applepie_Svk

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Synthesis is explained by most trustworthy source over whole 3 games which show himself in last 10 minutes, I bet my life that he is speaking truth...

#287
Yalision

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The problem with Synthesis is that it breaks a player's suspension of disbelief. We don't need to know exactly how it works. That is why we can except concepts like Element Zero and the Mass Relays. They are described in enough believable detail in the codex that we can accept them as a reasonable possibility in the fiction.

Synthesis, however, is a plot mechanic with no explanation of its function behind it. We are told about a concept and it skips describing the concept where then the narrative puts the concept into practice. In a game universe where things are described with such meticulous and wonderful detail as Mass Effect is, this is unacceptable for most people, myself included.

Mass Effect occurs from running positive or negative electrical charge through Element Zero. Element Zero is a very rare element that is mined from debris surrounding dead stars (or something like that, I know I'm close having pulled this off the top of my memory). So until we discovered the Mass Relays, we had never encountered any. I can accept and believe those things because they were described to me in a reasonable way.

Synthesis sends out a space beam that makes people robotic and robots organic, while neither is every truly again one or the other. It isn't believable because it isn't described in any reasonable way. Anyway. I hate synthesis for more than that it is just USDA Grade Space Magic.

#288
AresKeith

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Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so your lying to yourself then, cuz I read my comments and I said Sci-fi is built around a level of Science thats its called Science Fiction not Super Fantasy

so you need to stop putting words in people mouths and if you find this an insult I feel sorry for you

Yet you keep on lieing to make yourself look good based on personal beliefs instead of the facts.


lying because I quoted myself, just stop talking before I do insult you

Yet you already did.


ok, well if I did I don't care

#289
Eluril

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How does it not fit the setting? I hear that stupidity all the time and it's just completely wrong. Because the word "singularity" was never mentioned suddenly it's irrelevant to a universe in which synthetics and organics struggle to survive together? And the Reapers are perhaps the most blatant example to prove your idea that synthesis doesn't fit the universe totally wrong. The Reapers are a crude, brutal form of forced synthesis. The synthesis presented by the ending is a much more hopeful and "True form" wherein (if you're paying attention) synthetics develop a true individuality and emotion and there is greater diversity than ever. But instead of the parallel ideas in this we'd rather debate whether it makes everyone mindless zombies or how exactly DNA can be rewritten by a billion year advanced piece of technology.

#290
o Ventus

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Krunjar wrote...

Oh the Irony


The fact that you used the word "irony" here tells me you don't know what irony actually is.

#291
Ticonderoga117

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Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet the force is explained by magical bacteria, there's a lot than nanomachines to the Borg, and the human cylons are just robots like the normal cylons.


Never said midichlorians was a good idea. Bad writing.

A tad. Assimiliate more species and knowledge to get closer to perfection, but nano-tech explains most of thier abilities.

And the human cyclons are NOT regular robots. Have you seen the series?

#292
The Spamming Troll

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Eluril wrote...

And care to debate me on whether Prometheus is better than Alien 3 or Alien Resurrection?


ill debate you on whether or not prometheus is a quality movie or not.

which it isnt.

#293
Eluril

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Yalision wrote...

 We don't need to know exactly how it works. That is why we can except concepts like Element Zero and the Mass Relays. They are described in enough believable detail in the codex that we can accept them as a reasonable possibility in the fiction.


CODEX CODEX CODEX CODEX that's all I hear in this thread and in your message there.

#294
Blueprotoss

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...

TLDR: It's not only that it's implausible, it's that it doesn't fit the universe and comes completely out of left field to radically alter the plot and the very fabric of the setting.

Saren and Project Overlord.  Btw you could say that about Control and to a degree with Destroy.

#295
Raelen

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o Ventus wrote...

Raelen wrote...

The crucible was the result of perhaps hundreds (as far as we know) of cycles contributing to and refining this thing...It's not as simple as saying Liara knew about the Protheans so she would know about all the cycles before hand (Which by the way she specifically states that there is little to NO data about the cycle before the Protheans...AND add to that the fact that she hardly turns out to be an expert.  In the very first time we meet her she MISTAKENLY activates her prison and can't find a way out. Plus almost all of her assumptions about the Protheans and even her own race's history and the Protheans involvement in it come out as blindly wrong.).


Bold #1- She also says she's never seen a stasis projector like that one before. "Expert" just means she has a more extensive knowledge than most other people would in a certain field. It doesn't mean she's all-knowing about something.

Bold #2- Because the asari government was intentionally keeping that information hidden from the galactic public. I don't see how this has anything to do with Liara.


You want to use semantics as an argument?  Then focusing on one specific thing to the exclusion of others IS disregarding.


It's not semantics, nor did I exclude the other points. I acknowledged that they were there, I just focused on one because it struck me as odd. Or did you not read that part?


And yes, I do believe that including all the intricacies, all the science behind it, and all the very specific functions of the Crucible would NOT be extremely pertinent.  A person drives a car, I would challenge them to explain every single piece of it, it's function, what it's made of, why its necessary, how the combustion works down to the physics of it and mathematics of it...etc. 


Yeah, and random Joe Civilian is not reasonably expected to be extremely educated in how automobiles work. It's a vastly different case when you enlist HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS of engineers for the sole purpose of constructing this highly advanced device. Again, how in the entire f**k would including the function of the Crucible in the blueprints be impertinent? You have never explained that to me.


You know what?  Never mind.  This is a completely useless exercise.  You're ignoring points I'm making, or tossing them away like they mean nothing whereas yours mean everything.  This is and perhaps never was an argument, this was simply you thrusting your ideals upon others and not allowing any argument on the subject to make a dent in your ironclad vision of what is right and/or wrong.  I've given other reasons why the information wouldnt be there, but again, no acknowledgement of those.  You will nitpick only the things you can, and ignore everything else.  Because of this I've lost all interest in continuing this discourse. 

To all the others in the thread, for the most part, I agree that the ending could have been done better, and the setup for the Crucible and the Catalyst could have been handled much better.  I just think that disregarding what the Crucible does or insulting it because it wasnt explained and had no previous exposition is a bit unfair.  I still think it was just beyond what was known and it did something that people werent able to fully explain.  *shrug*  I do wish it had been handled a bit better tho.

*Exits thread*

#296
Ticonderoga117

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Eluril wrote...
Just stop arguing with these guys. See they're "Super sci-fi hard hard super hard sci-fi hard I mean rock hard" badasses because they can read a few lines of text in a codex or wiki and that makes them judge of what is acceptable to a science-fiction (NOTICE THE WORD "FICTION") universe.


It's not hard sci-fi, but ME has always had SOME level of explanation in it's tech pretty much.
That's been said in this thread time and time again, please remove your head from the dirt.

#297
Krunjar

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o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

Oh the Irony


The fact that you used the word "irony" here tells me you don't know what irony actually is.


Nit picking now ?

#298
Eluril

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

Eluril wrote...

And care to debate me on whether Prometheus is better than Alien 3 or Alien Resurrection?


ill debate you on whether or not prometheus is a quality movie or not.

which it isnt.


I'd destroy you but that's a debate for another day and time.

#299
Blueprotoss

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AresKeith wrote...

and notice the word science, even tho its fiction, it still needs to work on the level of science, nothing in ME1 and 2 happened in the way Synthesis did

So there was no Saren and Project Overlord.

#300
o Ventus

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Krunjar wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

Oh the Irony


The fact that you used the word "irony" here tells me you don't know what irony actually is.


Nit picking now ?


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