661 réponses à ce sujet

[Facemelter91]

You know, I hate myself partially for reading through this entire mess. So lets get some things straight.

Blueprotss: Stop. JUST STOP. you honest to God have no idea what your talking about, half the time I can't follow what in Gods name your referring to or talking bout. You don't know what most of the words your using mean. You are either ten years old, not a native English speaker, or a troll. You also can't argue to save your life. Yea, I just insulted you over the internet, I do it a lot. This just in, I don't care! You on the other hand are going to get butt hurt and retort to this in some way along the lines of "You are invalidated because you insulted me".

I saw a lot of people saying "this is space magic in this series, and this is space magic in another". No. they. are. not. They are all described and made to follow the rules of their respectable universe. They will not work in the ME universe and if you try, lo and behold they look like space magic. Wtf do you know, big surprise right? I will concede some of these ideas are quite stretched in their own universes, but they worked, and the reason we didn't see people spouting "space magic" is because they worked either due to following the rules to some degree or effectively keeping suspension of disbelief.

Synthesis is space magic because it does not work in Mass Effect. Biotics, eezo, artificial gravity, etc, are all based and stretched or considerably stretched actual science / physics. Well aware Eezo is not plausible in any sense in actual science, it is merely away around our universes boundaries while simultaneously keeping to our boundaries. What I mean by this is that its an element that has XYZ properties. Elements in our universe also have various and different properties that allow us to take x-rays, generate energy, create weapons, etc. Eezo works simply because its an element and we know how elements work and are willing to overlook its seemingly impossible qualities. Uranium isn't much different honestley, can cause cancer by its mere presense, glows green, main component of the most destructive weapon on the planet, yet its pretty much a rock  (almost magic right?) (yea its confusing, I hope I got my point across).

Yes, synthesis is fiction, and it would work if it had been made plausible at some point in the story. We saw a synthesis type thing from Saren ( I guess) and in project overload ( I guess) but was it ever, "look how happy everyone is! they are all peaceful and fun loving in a technological golden age or something!". No we saw essentially failed attempts, which was misery, pain, tragedy, mind control, horrid mutation, etc, which indicates IT DOESN'T WORK, that is if it was meant to be synthesis in some way to begin with.

Red ending works because it is an EMP type device that targets reaper tech in some way. BELIEVABLE within the universe.

Blue ending works because space kid is what Shepard replaces. We have proof in front of us that there is a way to control all the Reapers at once somehow. BELIEVABLE (to a lesser extent than red...) within the universe. (This is all under the assumption you believe the little s**t in the first place, to each his own I guess)

Synthesis does not work because we have no indication across all the games that it will work or that its even completely possible. Also what Calinstel already posted.

The entire ending was near the breaking point ,or did break at some points, the suspension of disbelief. It was all crap, it could have been done better in so many ways its hard not to laugh at it as is. Red and Blue remained within ME's universe to some extent, they remained believable despite the crap they were created in. Synthesis did not. Its akin to going to a hockey game and expecting to catch a puck but instead finding you caught a volleyball. Synthesis is "WTF is this?!" in its purest state in terms of ME's universe.

Long story short: Synthesis could have worked if BioWare had built the foundation for it. They didn't though, they put up a roof and expected it to float for some reason.

I have a question however. Why are you people arguing it only works if it could work in the real world. This is the "vibe" I guess you could say I'm getting from some of these arguments. No f**king way some of this stuff wont work in the real world. Its incredibly stretched to make the universe interesting and unique, not our boring old plain of existence. If robots have babies, then so be it, if it works in that universe why should I question it (though from what I'm getting they are essentially human and fully capable of having children, I'm assuming its just Blueprotoss trying to grasp ,while being ignorant, at anything to validate... what ever he is trying to validate... if he is? I think?)

Flames / arguments / rebuttals / agreements / quotes, what have you, are welcome.

Modifié par Facemelter91, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:55 .

[Blueprotoss]

Facemelter91 wrote...

Blueprotss: Stop. JUST STOP. you honest to God have no idea what your talking about, half the time I can't follow what in Gods name your referring to or talking bout. You don't know what most of the words your using mean. You are either ten years old, not a native English speaker, or a troll. You also can't argue to save your life. Yea, I just insulted you over the internet, I do it a lot. This just in, I don't care! You on the other hand are going to get butt hurt and retort to this in some way along the lines of "You are invalidated because you insulted me".

I see that you have to start it off with an immature comment and if you didn't care then why are you here talking in general since you do care.  I see that you can't understand simple like how most of ME is based on space magic.  Btw you shouldn't let yourself open to be called a hypocrite because everyone makes mistakes especially when it comes down to grammar like in this comment of yours.  Another reason is that you don't know what you're talking based on the abuse you are committing with the word "troll".  It seems you would rather cause more problems instead of solving them.

Facemelter91 wrote...

I saw a lot of people saying "this is space magic in this series, and this is space magic in another". No. they. are. not. They are all described and made to follow the rules of their respectable universe. They will not work in the ME universe and if you try, lo and behold they look like space magic. Wtf do you know, big surprise right? I will concede some of these ideas are quite stretched in their own universes, but they worked, and the reason we didn't see people spouting "space magic" is that they worked either due to following the rules to some degree or effectively keeping suspension of disbelief. 

 Yet most of ME universe is filled space magic like anything involved with eezo, Element Zero, and Mass Effect drives.

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Synthesis is space magic because it does not work in Mass Effect. Biotics, eezo, artificial gravity, etc, are all based and stretched or considerably stretched actual science / physics. Well aware Eezo is not plausible in any sense in actual science, it is merely away around our universes boundaries while simultaneously keeping to our boundaries. What I mean by this is that its an element that has XYZ properties. Elements in our universe also have various and different properties that allow us to take x-rays, generate energy, create weapons, etc. Eezo works simply because its an element and we know how elements work and are willing to overlook its seemingly impossible qualities. Uranium isn't much different honestley, can cause cancer by its mere presense, glows green, main component of the most destructive weapon on the planet, yet its pretty much a rock  (almost magic right?) (yea its confusing, I hope I got my point across). 

 Yet most of the "real" science is based on unrealistic science.

 

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Yes, synthesis is fiction, and it would work if it had been made plausible at some point in the story. We saw a synthesis type thing from Saren ( I guess) and in project overload ( I guess) but was it ever, "look how happy everyone is! they are all peaceful and fun loving in a technological golden age or something!". No we saw essentially failed attempts, which was misery, pain, tragedy, mind control, horrid mutation, etc, which indicates IT DOESN'T WORK, that is if it was meant to be synthesis in some way to begin with. 

 It is plausible in the ME universe especially when Saren is the prime example of it and Project Overload was another type.  It sounds like you would rather bash the creator vs created theme instead of looking for the facts.

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Red ending works because it is an EMP type device that targets reaper tech in some way. BELIEVABLE within the universe.  

If that was an EMP then nobody would have survived whether something was organic or synthetic.

 

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Blue ending works because space kid is what Shepard replaces. We have proof in front of us that there is a way to control all the Reapers at once somehow. BELIEVABLE (to a lesser extent than red...) within the universe. (This is all under the assumption you believe the little s**t in the first place, to each his own I guess)  

It seems lik you don't want to hear what the Reaper's creator has to say.

 

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Synthesis does not work because we have no indication across all the games it will work or that its even completely possible. Also what Calinstel already posted. 

 I guess Saren never existed in ME1 or Project Overord in ME2.

Facemelter91 wrote... 

The entire ending was near the breaking point ,or did break at some points, the suspension of disbelief. It was all crap, it could have been done better in so many ways its hard not to laugh at it as is. Red and Blue remained within ME's universe to some extent, they remained believable despite the crap they were created in. Synthesis did not. Its akin to going to a hockey game and expecting to catch a puck but instead finding you caught a volleyball. Synthesis is "WTF is this?!" in its purest state in terms of ME's universe.  

You either have all 3 of them based upon magic or science while the realistic answer is magic.

 

Facemelter91 wrote... 

Long story short: Synthesis could have worked if BioWare had built the foundation for it. They didn't though, they put up a roof and expected it to float for some reason.  

  Yet you decide to ignore whats your told or shown to you.a

Facemelter91 wrote... 

I have a question however. Why are you people arguing it only works if it could work in the real world. This is the "vibe" I guess you could say I'm getting from some of these arguments. No f**king way some of this stuff wont work in the real world. Its incredibly stretched to make the universe interesting and unique, not our boring old plain of existence. If robots have babies, then so be it, if it works in that universe why should I question it (though from what I'm getting they are essentially human and fully capable of having children, I'm assuming its just Blueprotoss trying to grasp ,while being ignorant, at anything to validate... what ever he is trying to validate... if he is? I think?)

Yet you're having a hard time trying  to grasp things based in ME's universe let alone any other scienece fiction's universe.   I have noticed that you're just another jackass that proves the old saying about assumptions. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:08 .

[o Ventus]

Heeden wrote...


That's not what Synthesis does, it isn't even suggested by the Catalyst.

Synthesis mixes Shepard's organic energy with the energy of the Crucible and disperses it across the galaxy. How this allows organics to integrate perfectly with technology is not fully explained, but if unobtainium can turn people in to wizards whilst Asari and Protheans can share information psychically the space-magic is not that far-out in ME terms.

No, that's what Synthesis does. I worded it differently than the Catalyst does, but it's a literal change in organics (as evidenced by the glowing eyes, circuitboard patterns, and cyber-DNA in the epilogue narration) and a "spiritual" one in synthetics.

[AlexMBrennan]

No OP, it's only space magic if there's no foreshadowing. We see Mass Effect fields all the time. We see indoctrination all the time. We run across Cerberus labs researching indoctrination and controlling the Reapers. Thus, Red and Blue do not require space magic. Synthesis does.

[Eluril]

Krunjar wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Yalision wrote...

 We don't need to know exactly how it works. That is why we can except concepts like Element Zero and the Mass Relays. They are described in enough believable detail in the codex that we can accept them as a reasonable possibility in the fiction.

CODEX CODEX CODEX CODEX that's all I hear in this thread and in your message there.

Ya know, I can't believe you actually wrote that.

Every Scifi universe has its very own codex or bible that all its tech is built upon.
Star Trek had one and so does Mass Effect (though retconned extensively throughout the series)
The codex states, beyond any reasonable argument, what is and is not allowed to transpire in that universe.
Anything not covered is SPACE MAGIC.  And if BioWare retcons the ME bible to include synthsis, that bible will turn into the necronomicom!

This is very true. While sci-fi doesn't have to be bound to conventional science it does have to  remain consistent within the rules of it's own "Universe". However I believe he was trying to say that just because it isn't listed in the codex dousn't mean it isn't part of the Universe. And it is semi validated .. at least in my opinion .. by the fact that the catalyst and the reapers have access to near godlike levels of technology so far ahead of that of the current limitations transcribed in the "Codex" That the fact that they transcent those limitations is not  altogether unexpected. And that beating them conventionally would be about as believable as the scene where the Ewok's beat the empire in Star wars : Return of the Jedi.

Exactly. Truthfully these people just don';t like the synthesis idea so they have to find some geek way of bashing it and calling it "beyond the bounds" of "true science fiction" when example after example can be raised of things within the universe with less explanation in-game than synthesis. Again and again they refer to the Codex which is irrelevant to the ending because that is the end of the game (!) and therefore we don't know if bioware has put the work into explaining how it works within the universe to the same level as say biotics or element zero which are at root the same level of space magic as synthesis. Just because I put in a line saying "When subjected to an electrical current this allows you to become an x-man" doesn't make it science anymore than the Catalyst stating the effects of synthesis (which by the way for those saying it's puppies and rainbows, you're somewhat right except for the fact that Shepard MUST die to receive that ending, unlike destroy and control it gives no option for Shepard to either live or partially live, this is a different debate however that is more about the themes and morality of the ending, not relevant to the "Space magic" stupidity).

[savionen]

A lot of it has to deal with the scale.

A gun that shoots shaved pieces of metal at extremely high velocities is a lot more practical and easier to mentally accept than a big green wave that rewrites all life in the entire galaxy.

Synthesis is space magic because of the scale, mixed with that there is no explanation, mixed with if they did give an explanation it still wouldn't make sense. Hence why they didn't even bother. The non-EC version of Synthesis said it created a new type of DNA for robots, how can you even compare that to a gun that fires shaved pieces of medal?

[Heeden]

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...


That's not what Synthesis does, it isn't even suggested by the Catalyst.

Synthesis mixes Shepard's organic energy with the energy of the Crucible and disperses it across the galaxy. How this allows organics to integrate perfectly with technology is not fully explained, but if unobtainium can turn people in to wizards whilst Asari and Protheans can share information psychically the space-magic is not that far-out in ME terms.

No, that's what Synthesis does. I worded it differently than the Catalyst does, but it's a literal change in organics (as evidenced by the glowing eyes, circuitboard patterns, and cyber-DNA in the epilogue narration) and a "spiritual" one in synthetics.

You said " It's literally conjuring and grafting cybernetics into organics", that is very different to "dispersing energy across the galaxy", for one your version is impossible even by ME's rules.

[Kel Riever]

You know what Space Magic is?

What it is going to take to erase the sucky ending from my mind.

[Shaigunjoe]

Yep, synthesis is space magic, biotics are space wizards, and eezo is enchanted rock. I don't know why people get so upset.

[Heeden]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No OP, it's only space magic if there's no foreshadowing. We see Mass Effect fields all the time. We see indoctrination all the time. We run across Cerberus labs researching indoctrination and controlling the Reapers. Thus, Red and Blue do not require space magic. Synthesis does.

It's magic if it breaks the laws of physics. Having it from the beginning of the story does not alter that, Frodo's ring was no less magical just beacause he received it in the first book.

[Eluril]

Eluril wrote...

Hmm kind of crazy but I don't remember being able to access the Codex post-ending. Must have missed that on my last playthrough.

This is still a great response to a great many of the points raised here.

[savionen]

Heeden wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No OP, it's only space magic if there's no foreshadowing. We see Mass Effect fields all the time. We see indoctrination all the time. We run across Cerberus labs researching indoctrination and controlling the Reapers. Thus, Red and Blue do not require space magic. Synthesis does.

It's magic if it breaks the laws of physics. Having it from the beginning of the story does not alter that, Frodo's ring was no less magical just beacause he received it in the first book.

It has a lot more to do with the suspension of disblief IMO, at least in the context of the ME3 forums. Synthesis is space magic because people find the idea really hard to believe. After you've engaged in 20-60 hours of biotic combat biotics are pretty acceptable.

[Heeden]

savionen wrote...

It has a lot more to do with the suspension of disblief IMO, at least in the context of the ME3 forums. Synthesis is space magic because people find the idea really hard to believe. After you've engaged in 20-60 hours of biotic combat biotics are pretty acceptable.

When I first started playing I didn't have 60 hours of biotic combat behind me. I got the description of eezo, the magical ways they use it on space-ships, and an explanation of how it gives people super-powers. This set ME up to be very soft sci-fi / space fantasy. Later discoveries - such as psychic Asari and Protheans and bringing people back from the dead - didn't do much to disavow this idea.

[Quackjack]

AresKeith wrote...

those have been explain in the codex while Synthesis came out of nowhere

[Shaigunjoe]

Heeden wrote...

savionen wrote...

It has a lot more to do with the suspension of disblief IMO, at least in the context of the ME3 forums. Synthesis is space magic because people find the idea really hard to believe. After you've engaged in 20-60 hours of biotic combat biotics are pretty acceptable.

When I first started playing I didn't have 60 hours of biotic combat behind me. I got the description of eezo, the magical ways they use it on space-ships, and an explanation of how it gives people super-powers. This set ME up to be very soft sci-fi / space fantasy. Later discoveries - such as psychic Asari and Protheans and bringing people back from the dead - didn't do much to disavow this idea.

Yea, the lazurus scene was the moment my suspension of disbelief was shattered.

[Xandurpein]

Most Science Fiction assumes that "something" makes it possible to break the laws of physics as we know it today. Usually this is expalined by some form of quasi-scientific "techno babble" claiming that scientists in the future will discover something that will expand our knowledge of science and make this "space magic" possible.

One thing that separates good SciFi from bad one is how these changes in physics are introduced. Any changes in the laws of physics that a SciFi novel assumes, should be introduced as early as possible. The reader should first be taught the new rules, so they can follow what happens. Even if the monoliths in 2001 are never properly explained, we are introduced to their effects right at the beginning of the story, and we learn that they have something to do with the Ascension of Man. A SciFi story can be just Space Magic, but once you've established the rules, you must be consequent and stick to them.

What makes the Synthesis green wave such a stupid cop out, is not that it's space magic as such, but that it's a previously unheard of space magic, introduced at the very end of the story.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:54 .

[Eluril]

LOL so you believed it was real before that point?

And again because this thread has gotten so long, my basic point is "Who cares?" Who really cares if a setting can be labeled as "hard sci-fi", "medium-well sci-fi", "rare sci-fi" or whatever. All that matters is that it be an interesting setting. To me sci-fi only needs to be plausible to a point to enjoy it. The rest is about the characters and stories being told. It seems like some people here were willing to say "99% of the games were hard sci-fi but synthesis is space magic, so....ME universe is a fantasy universe". It's their prerogative to choose whether or not it goes beyond enjoyment but for me I accept it as plausible for technology 1 billion years ahead of ours.

[savionen]

Heeden wrote...

savionen wrote...

It has a lot more to do with the suspension of disblief IMO, at least in the context of the ME3 forums. Synthesis is space magic because people find the idea really hard to believe. After you've engaged in 20-60 hours of biotic combat biotics are pretty acceptable.

When I first started playing I didn't have 60 hours of biotic combat behind me. I got the description of eezo, the magical ways they use it on space-ships, and an explanation of how it gives people super-powers. This set ME up to be very soft sci-fi / space fantasy. Later discoveries - such as psychic Asari and Protheans and bringing people back from the dead - didn't do much to disavow this idea.

My point was that you're constantly using biotics, FTL, etc, even if it's magical it's still part of the lore, especially by ME3 everything is already established.

Synthesis comes out of nowhere, in the hugest way possible. Hey Shepard, jumping into this beam will cause a big green beam to go across the entire galaxy giving robots DNA and making all chipmunks part robot. Even if Eezo is magical, it's not nearly even the same class as Synthesis.

[Memnon]

The issue is not what is and what isn't space magic, what is and what isn't based on science, knowledge, etc. The issue is working within the framework that the story establishes. In Star Wars, you have light sabres and the force - definitely space magic, but we all accept it because it is fun and they stay mostly consistent within the constraints that they establish. That's why people were in an uproar over "midichlorians." Synthesis is like Lucas ending RotJ by having ghost Yoda forcing Luke to sacrifice himself by jumping into the middle of the Death Star, which then releases an energy beam which causes all midichlorains to die, rendering everyone normal.

[AlexMBrennan]

Heeden wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No OP, it's only space magic if there's no foreshadowing. We see Mass Effect fields all the time. We see indoctrination all the time. We run across Cerberus labs researching indoctrination and controlling the Reapers. Thus, Red and Blue do not require space magic. Synthesis does.

It's magic if it breaks the laws of physics. Having it from the beginning of the story does not alter that, Frodo's ring was no less magical just beacause he received it in the first book.

You are right, it's magic. It's not space magic. [So you're actually completely missing the point here]. Whether the Mass Effect fields work in the real world is immaterial - it's fiction; that's not the problem. "Space magic" is a derogative term used for poorly, or not at all, foreshadowed plot twist. This is why synthesis is space magic - it comes out of no where. The possibility is never alluded to before you are told about it by Godchild. It's only there because it's necessary to wrap up the plot.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:02 .

[Heeden]

savionen wrote...

My point was that you're constantly using biotics, FTL, etc, even if it's magical it's still part of the lore, especially by ME3 everything is already established.

Synthesis comes out of nowhere, in the hugest way possible. Hey Shepard, jumping into this beam will cause a big green beam to go across the entire galaxy giving robots DNA and making all chipmunks part robot. Even if Eezo is magical, it's not nearly even the same class as Synthesis.

That isn't what Synthesis does, and even then it's not that much sillier than eezo turning people in to wizards. Like I said, early on they established technology does all sorts of magic stuff, Synthesis is just more magic and the systems it could use were established very early on with the Prothean beacon.

[savionen]

Heeden wrote...

savionen wrote...

My point was that you're constantly using biotics, FTL, etc, even if it's magical it's still part of the lore, especially by ME3 everything is already established.

Synthesis comes out of nowhere, in the hugest way possible. Hey Shepard, jumping into this beam will cause a big green beam to go across the entire galaxy giving robots DNA and making all chipmunks part robot. Even if Eezo is magical, it's not nearly even the same class as Synthesis.

That isn't what Synthesis does, and even then it's not that much sillier than eezo turning people in to wizards. Like I said, early on they established technology does all sorts of magic stuff, Synthesis is just more magic and the systems it could use were established very early on with the Prothean beacon.

It's exactly what Synthesis did pre-EC. They downplayed it in the EC but people already hated Synthesis by then.

[Heeden]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You are right, it's magic. It's not space magic. [So you're actually completely missing the point here]. Whether the Mass Effect fields work in the real world is immaterial - it's fiction; that's not the problem. "Space magic" is a derogative term used for poorly, or not at all, foreshadowed plot twist. This is why synthesis is space magic - it comes out of no where. The possibility is never alluded to before you are told about it by Godchild.

Space Magic is whatever breaks physics to make a story work, it isn't a derogative term. Most sci-fi features space magice, ME sets its own up as being heavilly fantasy based early on.

[memorysquid]

savionen wrote...

Synthesis comes out of nowhere, in the hugest way possible. Hey Shepard, jumping into this beam will cause a big green beam to go across the entire galaxy giving robots DNA and making all chipmunks part robot. Even if Eezo is magical, it's not nearly even the same class as Synthesis.

So what?  A few lines of contradictory text is good enough for you to suspend disbelief in whatever other space magic or plot holes they've frosted over, but introducing one without some hand waving nonsense by way of explanation blows it all?  They implemented a scene to show you how it works even; it adds little geometric squiggles to surround the little DNA squiggles.  If Destroy can work without frying all tech forever, blowing out all VIs, what's the big deal here? 

It is more fantastic than most of the other endings, but no more fantastic than the "Mass Effect" itself which contradicts all known physics.  I guess the draw there is that most people don't know enough of physics to be offended by that?  It's a game; get over it.

[Memnon]

Heeden wrote...
That isn't what Synthesis does, and even then it's not that much sillier than eezo turning people in to wizards. Like I said, early on they established technology does all sorts of magic stuff, Synthesis is just more magic and the systems it could use were established very early on with the Prothean beacon.

You're saying that having people use eezo with augmented implants is sillier than a beam that shoots out into the galaxy and changes the genetic makeup of every single inhabitant - organic and AI - somehow differentiating between sentient and non-sentient machines?