661 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

memorysquid wrote...
They write a bunch of words for eezo, sure.  So what?  How does that make it believable?  It does things that are literally impossible, from violating general relativity to making people psychic.  It's all freaking space magic!  If it were grounded in reality, they'd be calling this speculative fiction.

Because they actually explain it to a degree.

It makes the audiance go: "Oh, that sounds rather scientific, even though it's made up."

Science, fiction.

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet the Force and Biotic power are both space magic.

Biotics are different because it's explained how living beings can do this sort of thing. Read. The. Codex.

[CaliGuy033]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Synthesis is space magic because, unlike all the things you listed, the writers pulled it out of their asses in the last five minutes of the story.

Exactly.

Others aren't much better but since they're introduced so early on you have ample time to just roll with it.

When it was introduced in the story might affect how easily you accept it, but it doesn't affect at all how nonsensical it is.  Mass effect (the phenomenon, not the game) is just as preposterous as synthesis--maybe even moreso.

[Ticonderoga117]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

OP is spot on. I love how the best response is, "The other stuff has a few lines in the Codex explaining it."

If somebody wrote up an explanation for Synthesis in a few lines, people would laugh it off. Yet, they're totally okay with a few lines explaining how we can magically increase or decrease the mass of an object with this cool nifty element we discovered.

It also helps that none of the other things COMPLETELY SHATTER MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF.

[Rinji the Bearded]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

OP is spot on. I love how the best response is, "The other stuff has a few lines in the Codex explaining it."

If somebody wrote up an explanation for Synthesis in a few lines, people would laugh it off. Yet, they're totally okay with a few lines explaining how we can magically increase or decrease the mass of an object with this cool nifty element we discovered.

Suspension of disbelief.  For Science Fiction type stories, we are willing to believe that discoveries made in this alternate universe (dilithium in Star Trek, for example, which has little to no relation to the actual dilithium molecule) can be applied to the scientific fact of that universe alone.  

It's much more of a stretch to believe that an organic person with synthetic replacements can somehow alter the DNA of all living and synthetic things.  If I had a prosthetic limb, does that mean that I'm now part robot and my DNA would reflect as such?

[CaliGuy033]

To answer the OP more succinctly: people are selectively choosing where to suspend disbelief, and there's no rhyme or reason to their decisions.

[AresKeith]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Synthesis is space magic because, unlike all the things you listed, the writers pulled it out of their asses in the last five minutes of the story.

Exactly.

Others aren't much better but since they're introduced so early on you have ample time to just roll with it.

When it was introduced in the story might affect how easily you accept it, but it doesn't affect at all how nonsensical it is.  Mass effect (the phenomenon, not the game) is just as preposterous as synthesis--maybe even moreso.

no because a giant green energy wave that basically turns everyone into hybrids, aka husks is not Sci-fi

[Blueprotoss]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Star Trek applies their science as fact.  Star Wars, on the other hand, counts on an invisible, magical force that was only slightly explained later on.  As far as I know, they never explained why mitichlorians generated what everyone else perceives as the force, and why its so heavily influenced by "lightside" and "darkside," which are both intangible ideas of morality.  You also had things like immaculate conception and ~*prophecy*~  in Star Wars, which is once again supposed to be explained by this magical unseen Force..

On the other hand, Star Trek's use of things like dilithium crystals is applied to their scientific fact, much like Eezo.

Vulcans are space elves and warp tech defies logic, which those are just two examples of magic in Star Trek.

Yet eezo is magic and you just contradicted yourself.

[CaliGuy033]

RinjiRenee wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

OP is spot on. I love how the best response is, "The other stuff has a few lines in the Codex explaining it."

If somebody wrote up an explanation for Synthesis in a few lines, people would laugh it off. Yet, they're totally okay with a few lines explaining how we can magically increase or decrease the mass of an object with this cool nifty element we discovered.

Suspension of disbelief.  For Science Fiction type stories, we are willing to believe that discoveries made in this alternate universe (dilithium in Star Trek, for example, which has little to no relation to the actual dilithium molecule) can be applied to the scientific fact of that universe alone.  

It's much more of a stretch to believe that an organic person with synthetic replacements can somehow alter the DNA of all living and synthetic things.  If I had a prosthetic limb, does that mean that I'm now part robot and my DNA would reflect as such?

You're just proving my point by saying that one completely unbelivable thing is "much more of a stretch" than another completely unbelievable thing.  They're both entirely preposterous.  I like how you apply "alternate universe" logic to one but not the other. 

Like I said, it's selective suspension of disbelief.  

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Synthesis is space magic because, unlike all the things you listed, the writers pulled it out of their asses in the last five minutes of the story.

Exactly.

Others aren't much better but since they're introduced so early on you have ample time to just roll with it.

When it was introduced in the story might affect how easily you accept it, but it doesn't affect at all how nonsensical it is.  Mass effect (the phenomenon, not the game) is just as preposterous as synthesis--maybe even moreso.

no because a giant green energy wave that basically turns everyone into hybrids, aka husks is not Sci-fi

Actually you don't want to hear the facts.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Blueprotoss wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Star Trek applies their science as fact.  Star Wars, on the other hand, counts on an invisible, magical force that was only slightly explained later on.  As far as I know, they never explained why mitichlorians generated what everyone else perceives as the force, and why its so heavily influenced by "lightside" and "darkside," which are both intangible ideas of morality.  You also had things like immaculate conception and ~*prophecy*~  in Star Wars, which is once again supposed to be explained by this magical unseen Force..

On the other hand, Star Trek's use of things like dilithium crystals is applied to their scientific fact, much like Eezo.

Vulcans are space elves and warp tech defies logic, which those are just two examples of magic in Star Trek.

Yet eezo is magic and you just contradicted yourself.

Suspension of disbelief, you don't get it. 

[CaliGuy033]

AresKeith wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Synthesis is space magic because, unlike all the things you listed, the writers pulled it out of their asses in the last five minutes of the story.

Exactly.

Others aren't much better but since they're introduced so early on you have ample time to just roll with it.

When it was introduced in the story might affect how easily you accept it, but it doesn't affect at all how nonsensical it is.  Mass effect (the phenomenon, not the game) is just as preposterous as synthesis--maybe even moreso.

no because a giant green energy wave that basically turns everyone into hybrids, aka husks is not Sci-fi

Sure it is.  I'm sorry to say, but you don't get to personally define the contours of what is "sci fi."

[Memnon]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantasy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect is. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

Modifié par Stornskar, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:41 .

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Because they actually explain it to a degree.

It makes the audiance go: "Oh, that sounds rather scientific, even though it's made up."

Science, fiction.

 You really aren't a science fiction fan.

Ticonderoga117 wrote... 

Biotics are different because it's explained how living beings can do this sort of thing. Read. The. Codex.

A codex entry doesn't change whats magic or not even when biotic powers is magic.

[Nerevar-as]

RinjiRenee wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

OP is spot on. I love how the best response is, "The other stuff has a few lines in the Codex explaining it."

If somebody wrote up an explanation for Synthesis in a few lines, people would laugh it off. Yet, they're totally okay with a few lines explaining how we can magically increase or decrease the mass of an object with this cool nifty element we discovered.

Suspension of disbelief.  For Science Fiction type stories, we are willing to believe that discoveries made in this alternate universe (dilithium in Star Trek, for example, which has little to no relation to the actual dilithium molecule) can be applied to the scientific fact of that universe alone.  

It's much more of a stretch to believe that an organic person with synthetic replacements can somehow alter the DNA of all living and synthetic things.  If I had a prosthetic limb, does that mean that I'm now part robot and my DNA would reflect as such?

Metabolism is changed. Digestion is changed. Genetics are changed. In an instant. For everybody, which for instance includes species that breathe amonia instead of oxigen.

For synthetics, now they can maintain the organic part of their techorganic augmentations (at least I saw EDI with the green microcircuitry too - wonder if they forgot that was remote controlled and if the blue box got it too).

There´s no way to justify this unless you say God did it. Not here, not in Star Wars (Pulp Space Fantasy BTW), Star Trek or anywhere.

[Blueprotoss]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Star Trek applies their science as fact.  Star Wars, on the other hand, counts on an invisible, magical force that was only slightly explained later on.  As far as I know, they never explained why mitichlorians generated what everyone else perceives as the force, and why its so heavily influenced by "lightside" and "darkside," which are both intangible ideas of morality.  You also had things like immaculate conception and ~*prophecy*~  in Star Wars, which is once again supposed to be explained by this magical unseen Force..

On the other hand, Star Trek's use of things like dilithium crystals is applied to their scientific fact, much like Eezo.

Vulcans are space elves and warp tech defies logic, which those are just two examples of magic in Star Trek.

Yet eezo is magic and you just contradicted yourself.

Suspension of disbelief, you don't get it. 

Pot calling the kettle black.

[savionen]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantsy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect it. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

+1 It's like vampires suddenly being able to time travel and shoot lasers out of their eyes in the last few minutes.

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantsy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect it. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

Synthesis has been around since the beginning of with Saren and the Reapers are barely explained, which shouldn't disconnect people.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:40 .

[Memnon]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Synthesis has been around since the beginning of with Saren and the Reapers are barely explained.

If you really can't tell the difference between Synthesis and Saren/Reapers, then there really is no point discussing this anymore ... good luck

[savionen]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantsy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect it. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

Synthesis has been around since the beginning of with Saren and the Reapers are barely explained.

Saren wanted cyborgs that were controlled by implants attached to the nerves and brain. He didn't say anything about a green beam that hits the entire galaxy and gives robots DNA and makes plants have feelings.

[Ryzaki]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantasy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect is. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

Seriously this.

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Synthesis has been around since the beginning of with Saren and the Reapers are barely explained.

If you really can't tell the difference between Synthesis and Saren/Reapers, then there really is no point discussing this anymore ... good luck

Yet Saren was the one who endorsed the idea and theme of Synthesis in the ME universe.

[Blueprotoss]

savionen wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Thats a huge straw-mann.

It's ironic that you mention straw man, because that's what this entire discussion is. For the most part, people are upset that Synthesis is not congruent with the rules established in the series, not that it's 'space magic.' Any fantsy and science fiction can establish its own set of rules (Vampires burst into flames in sunlight?) and as long as they stick to those rules, people can suspend their disbeleif. If a fantasy/sci fi setting establishes rules, then pulls something completely out of nowhere which doesn't have anything to do with the rules ... that is where the disconnect it. Seriously, why are folks unable to get this? 

Synthesis has been around since the beginning of with Saren and the Reapers are barely explained.

Saren wanted cyborgs that were controlled by implants attached to the nerves and brain. He didn't say anything about a green beam that hits the entire galaxy and gives robots DNA and makes plants have feelings.

Yet you just described Synthesis and the Reapers.

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
 You really aren't a science fiction fan.

A codex entry doesn't change whats magic or not even when biotic powers is magic.

Well it seems like I have read more Science Fiction than you have and understand what makes good SciFi compared to "Ah, to hell with it. Make crap up for no reason!"

And yes it does.

[AresKeith]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Synthesis is space magic because, unlike all the things you listed, the writers pulled it out of their asses in the last five minutes of the story.

Exactly.

Others aren't much better but since they're introduced so early on you have ample time to just roll with it.

When it was introduced in the story might affect how easily you accept it, but it doesn't affect at all how nonsensical it is.  Mass effect (the phenomenon, not the game) is just as preposterous as synthesis--maybe even moreso.

no because a giant green energy wave that basically turns everyone into hybrids, aka husks is not Sci-fi

Sure it is.  I'm sorry to say, but you don't get to personally define the contours of what is "sci fi."

um do you? Science Fiction just because its fiction doesn't mean it should throw out the sciene part, a green wave that changes everything in the galaxy destroys Sci-fi and goes to fantasy

[Reorte]

There are degrees of complete and utter nonsense I'm afraid and the mass effect is a much less severe one than Synthesis. The mass effect and element zero also have the big advantage of being established pretty much right at the start, so the series begins with "Here's our bit of nonsense, take it or leave it, but at least we've established what it does and everything else is going to be at least a token effort of living within the constraints of what we've said that can do and reality." Another advantage of it is that we need some exception to reality in order to get a story going with interstellar travel, so such exceptions are generally mostly accepted. Once you've made it it makes sense to extrapolate its other consequences.

Synthesis though comes right out of the blue, adds nothing that is sensibly needed for the story, and is a complete and utter "all bets on what's possible and impossible are now off."