661 réponses à ce sujet

[savionen]

elitehunter34 wrote...

I don't even know what the purpose of this thread is anymore. Look, we get it, biotics, eezo, and mass effect fields are all space magic in that they aren't possible with current technology. But that isn't why people call Synthesis space magic. People call it space magic (or at least I do) because it breaks our suspension of disbelief. This has been said by several people in this thread.

No one is trying to argue that biotics and mass effect fields are realistic or possible. We are saying that they have been established early in the series and have known effects and limitations based on the codex and the rest of the Mass Effect universe. That's why they don't break my suspension of disbelief. If all of a sudden some guy destroyed a planet with biotics, that would break my suspension of disbelief because biotics are not established to be that godly powerful anywhere else in the series.

Synthesis breaks my suspension of disbelief for many reasons. For one, it is suddenly altering every organic being in the galaxy on a molecular level. It just doesn't make sense to me how a device could feasibly do that. Just because a device is powerful doesn't mean it can do some so complex. How would an energy wave give someone synthetic upgrades? That is presumably creating complex systems with intricate parts and merging them with complex biological systems. I'm sorry, but no where in the Mass Effect universe can an energy wave somehow create matter in an organized way.

It also gives synthetics full understanding of organics. What does that even mean? Is it altering their programming? Giving them new hardware? How advanced does the synthetic have to be for this effect to happen?  Will a simple computer gain this "full understanding"? An attack drone? An omni-tool? The description is just too vague and unspecific for it to even mean anything.

And my personal top reason for why Synthesis breaks my suspension of disbelief is the necessary sacrifice of Shepard for it to work. It disperses Shepard's organic energy? What? What the hell is "organic energy"? Nothing like that exists in the Mass Effect universe. Why does it need Shepard in the first place? The Synthesis beam is already silly enough, adding the Shepard sacrifice just put the final nail in the coffin for me.

+1

[Reorte]

It's rather sad that some people seem to be only capable of dealing with absolutes - either it's 100% in agreement with (known) reality or absolutely anything is possible and plausible within the fictional universe.

[Blueprotoss]

elitehunter34 wrote...

I don't even know what the purpose of this thread is anymore. Look, we get it, biotics, eezo, and mass effect fields are all space magic in that they aren't possible with current technology. But that isn't why people call Synthesis space magic. People call it space magic (or at least I do) because it breaks our suspension of disbelief. This has been said by several people in this thread.

No one is trying to argue that biotics and mass effect fields are realistic or possible. We are saying that they have been established early in the series and have known effects and limitations based on the codex and the rest of the Mass Effect universe. That's why they don't break my suspension of disbelief. If all of a sudden some guy destroyed a planet with biotics, that would break my suspension of disbelief because biotics are not established to be that godly powerful anywhere else in the series.

Synthesis breaks my suspension of disbelief for many reasons. For one, it is suddenly altering every organic being in the galaxy on a molecular level. It just doesn't make sense to me how a device could feasibly do that. Just because a device is powerful doesn't mean it can do some so complex. How would an energy wave give someone synthetic upgrades? That is presumably creating complex systems with intricate parts and merging them with complex biological systems. I'm sorry, but no where in the Mass Effect universe can an energy wave somehow create matter in an organized way.

It also gives synthetics full understanding of organics. What does that even mean? Is it altering their programming? Giving them new hardware? How advanced does the synthetic have to be for this effect to happen?  Will a simple computer gain this "full understanding"? An attack drone? An omni-tool? The description is just too vague and unspecific for it to even mean anything.

And my personal top reason for why Synthesis breaks my suspension of disbelief is the necessary sacrifice of Shepard for it to work. It disperses Shepard's organic energy? What? What the hell is "organic energy"? Nothing like that exists in the Mass Effect universe. Why does it need Shepard in the first place? The Synthesis beam is already silly enough, adding the Shepard sacrifice just put the final nail in the coffin for me.

Space magic is still magic whether its biotics, ftl, Project Lazurus, or Synthesis/Control.

[savionen]

What are you trying to accomplish Blueprotoss? Are you trying to convince everyone that Mass Effect has space magic everywhere but Synthesis is still stupid and horribly written?

Even if Mass Effect has lots of "space magic" Synthesis is still terrible, and not palatable for anyone that has a brain.

Modifié par savionen, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[Reorte]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Space magic is still magic whether its biotics, ftl, Project Lazurus, or Synthesis/Control.

I'd argue that Lazarus is just very, very far-fetched rather than space magic, but so? Are you just quibbling about semantics here?

[Blueprotoss]

Reorte wrote...

It's rather sad that some people seem to be only capable of dealing with absolutes - either it's 100% in agreement with (known) reality or absolutely anything is possible and plausible within the fictional universe.

The irony here is that Synthesis is questioned while Reapers aren't even when both equal.

[Blueprotoss]

Reorte wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Space magic is still magic whether its biotics, ftl, Project Lazurus, or Synthesis/Control.

I'd argue that Lazarus is just very, very far-fetched rather than space magic, but so? Are you just quibbling about semantics here?

Yet you're the one using semantics here.

[Blueprotoss]

savionen wrote...

What are you trying to accomplish Blueprotoss? Are you trying to convince everyone that Mass Effect has space magic everywhere but Synthesis is still stupid and horribly written?

Even if Mass Effect has lots of "space magic" Synthesis is still terrible, and not palatable for anyone that has a brain.

Insulting people won't help you and rejecting the logic in ME won't  help you either.

[memorysquid]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

memorysquid wrote...
They write a bunch of words for eezo, sure.  So what?  How does that make it believable?  It does things that are literally impossible, from violating general relativity to making people psychic.  It's all freaking space magic!  If it were grounded in reality, they'd be calling this speculative fiction.

Because they actually explain it to a degree.

It makes the audiance go: "Oh, that sounds rather scientific, even though it's made up."

Science, fiction.

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet the Force and Biotic power are both space magic.

Biotics are different because it's explained how living beings can do this sort of thing. Read. The. Codex.

Explaining physically impossible nonsense to a degree so it sounds "scientific" is cool; I just don't think it is particularly relevant to suspension of disbelief.  Cobble some words together to tell me how to travel back in time, and I'll still have problems with the concept, regardless.  It's all hand waving magic, just because.  I suppose this means most people's understanding of science is literally "magic but with some words."  If people can read stories with literal MAGIC and get into them, that isn't the problem here.

[savionen]

Blueprotoss wrote...

savionen wrote...

What are you trying to accomplish Blueprotoss? Are you trying to convince everyone that Mass Effect has space magic everywhere but Synthesis is still stupid and horribly written?

Even if Mass Effect has lots of "space magic" Synthesis is still terrible, and not palatable for anyone that has a brain.

Insulting people won't help you and rejecting the logic in ME won't  help you either.

So just trolling? Got it.

[Blueprotoss]

savionen wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

savionen wrote...

What are you trying to accomplish Blueprotoss? Are you trying to convince everyone that Mass Effect has space magic everywhere but Synthesis is still stupid and horribly written?

Even if Mass Effect has lots of "space magic" Synthesis is still terrible, and not palatable for anyone that has a brain.

Insulting people won't help you and rejecting the logic in ME won't  help you either.

So just trolling? Got it.

I see you don't know the definition of "trolling" based on your abuse of the word.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:14 .

[AresKeith]

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

I see you're still abusing opinion and its not my fault that I can separate my personal beliefs from the facts.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:04 .

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

I see you're still abusing opinion and its not my fault that I can separate my personal beliefs from the facts.

all of your comments are your personal beliefs, just stop talking

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

I see you're still abusing opinion and its not my fault that I can separate my personal beliefs from the facts.

all of your comments are your personal beliefs, just stop talking

Pot calling the kettle black.

[Ownedbacon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

In the hope that this thread is not beyond redemption...

<snip>


TLDR: It's not only that it's implausible, it's that it doesn't fit the universe and comes completely out of left field to radically alter the plot and the very fabric of the setting.

this

Yet all of that is still magic.

The magical elements of the Mass Effect universe we have been exposed to throughout the games and have been reinforced by the codex as part of the universe so we accept them. When things occur in the game we look at the already established rules to see if they work. The way the Crucible accomplishes synthesis is what is in question. The Crucible can use Shepard's "energy" what little there is of what makes up Shepard and spread it throughout the galaxy genetically alterring any living thing organic and synthetic into some super being where everybody is linked and everyone is perfect. This is more unbelievable than biotics using implants and creating mass effect fields. Not that isn't magical in some way it just stays within the rules of the Mass Effect Universe.

Technological singularity, I never saw this as the entire focus of the Mass Effect series. From playing the first two and the majority of the third, the focus seemed to always be unity through diversity. The Reapers may have had other motives other than the galactic harvest, but their entire purpose seemed to be just about reproducing more Reapers and evolving those species involved.  All species have a bad history with each other some more hostile than others. Organics with all their differences are always self-invested (we see this as each race is attacked in 3) if any race left unchecked and overpowered they could conquer and wipe out other organic races (we heard about this with the Rachni, and the Krogan thats why the Genophage was implemented.) This should/could have been what the chaos of organic evolution was about. Organics could develop unpredictable technology using it to dominate the galaxy and consume resources. This could lead to extinction. Technology that was more powerful than Reaper tech and organic extinction  would be threatening to Reapers. Using a technology that the Reapers made, the Reapers can use it themselves and keep the organic races in check. The Reapers view organics with contempt and see Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution. These organics if harvested into Reaper form would be "perfected" according to the Reapers.

In a similar way that Agent Smith from the Matrix views humans, the Reapers could have viewed organics and their impact on the galaxy:

Agent Smith:
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until
every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.


Like other races that evolved to dominate their planets they moved on and became spacefaring and went on to spread throughout the galaxy.  Had the species not used Reaper technology they could have developed other tech that could have been dangerous to the Reapers themselves. The cycle would have kept organics in check and ensure that organics would exist as a means for the Reapers to reproduce and continue doing things beyond our comprehension.

Back on topic, Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere as a solution since there were no pursuits by any other characters. Had some Quarian scientist been experimenting with such a thing and had it been mentioned as the only way to achieve peace for the Geth war. The war with the Geth seemed no more important to the plot than the Genophage or the Rachni Queen. We see a Geth alliance and EDI even says "I am alive because of you"(she says in Priority Earth and she isn't even synthesized).

If the Crucible had been a time machine and Shepard could go back to create an army to stop the Reapers it would have been as out of place as the way synthesis is accomplished it just goes against the rules established in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

I see you're still abusing opinion and its not my fault that I can separate my personal beliefs from the facts.

all of your comments are your personal beliefs, just stop talking

Pot calling the kettle black.

you know what your right all your comments are the facts, happy now? <_<

[Blueprotoss]

Ownedbacon wrote...

The magical elements of the Mass Effect universe we have been exposed to throughout the games and have been reinforced by the codex as part of the universe so we accept them. When things occur in the game we look at the already established rules to see if they work. The way the Crucible accomplishes synthesis is what is in question. The Crucible can use Shepard's "energy" what little there is of what makes up Shepard and spread it throughout the galaxy genetically alterring any living thing organic and synthetic into some super being where everybody is linked and everyone is perfect. This is more unbelievable than biotics using implants and creating mass effect fields. Not that isn't magical in some way it just stays within the rules of the Mass Effect Universe.

Technological singularity, I never saw this as the entire focus of the Mass Effect series. From playing the first two and the majority of the third, the focus seemed to always be unity through diversity. The Reapers may have had other motives other than the galactic harvest, but their entire purpose seemed to be just about reproducing more Reapers and evolving those species involved.  All species have a bad history with each other some more hostile than others. Organics with all their differences are always self-invested (we see this as each race is attacked in 3) if any race left unchecked and overpowered they could conquer and wipe out other organic races (we heard about this with the Rachni, and the Krogan thats why the Genophage was implemented.) This should/could have been what the chaos of organic evolution was about. Organics could develop unpredictable technology using it to dominate the galaxy and consume resources. This could lead to extinction. Technology that was more powerful than Reaper tech and organic extinction  would be threatening to Reapers. Using a technology that the Reapers made, the Reapers can use it themselves and keep the organic races in check. The Reapers view organics with contempt and see Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution. These organics if harvested into Reaper form would be "perfected" according to the Reapers.

In a similar way that Agent Smith from the Matrix views humans, the Reapers could have viewed organics and their impact on the galaxy:

Agent Smith:
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until
every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.


Like other races that evolved to dominate their planets they moved on and became spacefaring and went on to spread throughout the galaxy.  Had the species not used Reaper technology they could have developed other tech that could have been dangerous to the Reapers themselves. The cycle would have kept organics in check and ensure that organics would exist as a means for the Reapers to reproduce and continue doing things beyond our comprehension.

Back on topic, Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere as a solution since there were no pursuits by any other characters. Had some Quarian scientist been experimenting with such a thing and had it been mentioned as the only way to achieve peace for the Geth war. The war with the Geth seemed no more important to the plot than the Genophage or the Rachni Queen. We see a Geth alliance and EDI even says "I am alive because of you"(she says in Priority Earth and she isn't even synthesized).

If the Crucible had been a time machine and Shepard could go back to create an army to stop the Reapers it would have been as out of place as the way synthesis is accomplished it just goes against the rules established in the Mass Effect universe.

Yet all of that is still magic especially most science fiction will fall under it whether its Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galatica, or the Matrix.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

so Blueprotoss is one of those people where his word is law and facts and everyone who questions him is insulting him or straw-man

I see you're still abusing opinion and its not my fault that I can separate my personal beliefs from the facts.

all of your comments are your personal beliefs, just stop talking

Pot calling the kettle black.

you know what your right all your comments are the facts, happy now? <_<

Sarcasm won't work.

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Sarcasm won't work.

I'm glad you caught that, seems to be the only thing you can see

Modifié par AresKeith, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[tanisha__unknown]

SciFi will always be a mixture of a little science and a lot of fantasy. All the things you've mentioned were pretty much established in the first game.

Synthesis was introduced in the last five minutes. You don't do that if you're a good writer.

[Wayning_Star]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

In the hope that this thread is not beyond redemption...

<snip>


TLDR: It's not only that it's implausible, it's that it doesn't fit the universe and comes completely out of left field to radically alter the plot and the very fabric of the setting.

this

Yet all of that is still magic.

The magical elements of the Mass Effect universe we have been exposed to throughout the games and have been reinforced by the codex as part of the universe so we accept them. When things occur in the game we look at the already established rules to see if they work. The way the Crucible accomplishes synthesis is what is in question. The Crucible can use Shepard's "energy" what little there is of what makes up Shepard and spread it throughout the galaxy genetically alterring any living thing organic and synthetic into some super being where everybody is linked and everyone is perfect. This is more unbelievable than biotics using implants and creating mass effect fields. Not that isn't magical in some way it just stays within the rules of the Mass Effect Universe.

Technological singularity, I never saw this as the entire focus of the Mass Effect series. From playing the first two and the majority of the third, the focus seemed to always be unity through diversity. The Reapers may have had other motives other than the galactic harvest, but their entire purpose seemed to be just about reproducing more Reapers and evolving those species involved.  All species have a bad history with each other some more hostile than others. Organics with all their differences are always self-invested (we see this as each race is attacked in 3) if any race left unchecked and overpowered they could conquer and wipe out other organic races (we heard about this with the Rachni, and the Krogan thats why the Genophage was implemented.) This should/could have been what the chaos of organic evolution was about. Organics could develop unpredictable technology using it to dominate the galaxy and consume resources. This could lead to extinction. Technology that was more powerful than Reaper tech and organic extinction  would be threatening to Reapers. Using a technology that the Reapers made, the Reapers can use it themselves and keep the organic races in check. The Reapers view organics with contempt and see Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution. These organics if harvested into Reaper form would be "perfected" according to the Reapers.

In a similar way that Agent Smith from the Matrix views humans, the Reapers could have viewed organics and their impact on the galaxy:

Agent Smith:
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until
every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.


Like other races that evolved to dominate their planets they moved on and became spacefaring and went on to spread throughout the galaxy.  Had the species not used Reaper technology they could have developed other tech that could have been dangerous to the Reapers themselves. The cycle would have kept organics in check and ensure that organics would exist as a means for the Reapers to reproduce and continue doing things beyond our comprehension.

Back on topic, Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere as a solution since there were no pursuits by any other characters. Had some Quarian scientist been experimenting with such a thing and had it been mentioned as the only way to achieve peace for the Geth war. The war with the Geth seemed no more important to the plot than the Genophage or the Rachni Queen. We see a Geth alliance and EDI even says "I am alive because of you"(she says in Priority Earth and she isn't even synthesized).

If the Crucible had been a time machine and Shepard could go back to create an army to stop the Reapers it would have been as out of place as the way synthesis is accomplished it just goes against the rules established in the Mass Effect universe.

simple rule of thumb about...

""the rules established in the Mass Effect universe.


"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing.Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything." SOVEREIGN>catalyst kid""

(how whould/could anyone 'describe' the MEU?

[Blueprotoss]

 

Jinx1720 wrote...

SciFi will always be a mixture of a little science and a lot of fantasy. All the things you've mentioned were pretty much established in the first game.

This is very true. 

Jinx1720 wrote...
Synthesis was introduced in the last five minutes. You don't do that if you're a good writer.

Saren and the Reapers.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:58 .

[Ownedbacon]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...

The magical elements of the Mass Effect universe we have been exposed to throughout the games and have been reinforced by the codex as part of the universe so we accept them. When things occur in the game we look at the already established rules to see if they work. The way the Crucible accomplishes synthesis is what is in question. The Crucible can use Shepard's "energy" what little there is of what makes up Shepard and spread it throughout the galaxy genetically alterring any living thing organic and synthetic into some super being where everybody is linked and everyone is perfect. This is more unbelievable than biotics using implants and creating mass effect fields. Not that isn't magical in some way it just stays within the rules of the Mass Effect Universe.

Technological singularity, I never saw this as the entire focus of the Mass Effect series. From playing the first two and the majority of the third, the focus seemed to always be unity through diversity. The Reapers may have had other motives other than the galactic harvest, but their entire purpose seemed to be just about reproducing more Reapers and evolving those species involved.  All species have a bad history with each other some more hostile than others. Organics with all their differences are always self-invested (we see this as each race is attacked in 3) if any race left unchecked and overpowered they could conquer and wipe out other organic races (we heard about this with the Rachni, and the Krogan thats why the Genophage was implemented.) This should/could have been what the chaos of organic evolution was about. Organics could develop unpredictable technology using it to dominate the galaxy and consume resources. This could lead to extinction. Technology that was more powerful than Reaper tech and organic extinction  would be threatening to Reapers. Using a technology that the Reapers made, the Reapers can use it themselves and keep the organic races in check. The Reapers view organics with contempt and see Reapers as the pinnacle of evolution. These organics if harvested into Reaper form would be "perfected" according to the Reapers.

In a similar way that Agent Smith from the Matrix views humans, the Reapers could have viewed organics and their impact on the galaxy:

Agent Smith:
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until
every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.


Like other races that evolved to dominate their planets they moved on and became spacefaring and went on to spread throughout the galaxy.  Had the species not used Reaper technology they could have developed other tech that could have been dangerous to the Reapers themselves. The cycle would have kept organics in check and ensure that organics would exist as a means for the Reapers to reproduce and continue doing things beyond our comprehension.

Back on topic, Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere as a solution since there were no pursuits by any other characters. Had some Quarian scientist been experimenting with such a thing and had it been mentioned as the only way to achieve peace for the Geth war. The war with the Geth seemed no more important to the plot than the Genophage or the Rachni Queen. We see a Geth alliance and EDI even says "I am alive because of you"(she says in Priority Earth and she isn't even synthesized).

If the Crucible had been a time machine and Shepard could go back to create an army to stop the Reapers it would have been as out of place as the way synthesis is accomplished it just goes against the rules established in the Mass Effect universe.

Yet all of that is still magic especially most science fiction will fall under it whether its Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galatica, or the Matrix.

Magic is present but is it believable in the established universe rules, but the way synthesis occurs in the end of Mass Effect 3 goes beyond what we have been shown and what is possible in the Mass Effect universe. Like I said it would be as out of place as if time travel had been introduced in the conclusion of the game.