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[Bill Casey]

"From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space".

- Mac Walters

[The Night Mammoth]

Wayning_Star wrote...

some folks beleived that if Shepard chose the control option, it would be Okay, cause they could trust Shepard with the unlimited knowlege and power of the reaper compendium...But others have suspension of disbelief that reaper tech and Protheian programing could make possible a super weapon/contraption that could alter spacetime,hyper influence matter (everything is matter,even organics) at a sub molecular level, altering it? But everyone in the MEU would be foolish enough to build such a space magical device, because they have to..to make a choice forced upon them by a race of quasi sentient machines from the past?... Who'd of thunk?!?

I have no idea what any of that means. Too much snark and sarcasm perhaps clouds the intention of the parapgraph. 

Adding to my point though; most things on that list aren't important to the plot. They're essentially fluff ideas. Synthesis and its mechanics are very important.

[AresKeith]

Bill Casey wrote...

"From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space".

- Mac Walters

ok what goes on in Mac's head

[Steve The Seal]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steve The Seal wrote...

Most of those issues are explained in the codex. Those issues can be accepted because they consist of a bit of science and a bit of science fiction.
The major problem I have with synthesis is this:
"I shoot you with a beam, now you're a cyborg!"
That is utter rubbish! Suddenly something comes from nothing. You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics, but that would require that you open up the body (as with shep in me2). Simply shooting someone with a beam to make them a cyborg is what a child playing around with his friends with come up with. It's idiotic, illogical and irrational.
It even bothers me more, when it's the other way around. How the heck do you make a robot part organic?! That in modern science would be considered highly imorale to do and a monstrousity, because it would require that you inserted organic body parts into the robot (the brain mostly).
That's why it's stupid. That's a part of why synthesis is disgusting (besides destroying diversity). That is why it's space-magic and does not belong in the ME series.

technically, from what I gathered from the game, they weren't 'instant cyborgs', or cyborgs at all like , say, star trek borg, who install parts of tech that control or don't, human hosts, Shepard could be considered "some" cyborg, and the Illusive man and many of his cohorts were cyborg. Miranda had specially seperated DNA additives, I think would mean she was a higher level cyborg, but  mostly human, or humanoid, depending on where the DNA came from. The  inclusion of the dreaded green beam, worked, apparently, on a lower level and infused genetically with organics and technically with synthetics. How this occurs whould probably best left up to the techs who mostly/more than we understand the actualy science around it. Did anyone notice Joker still hobbled off the normandy,even after he was zapped by the green beam.. apparently it doesn't cure all things organic, but merely doses the recipient with enough tech to say they're no longer completely organic.

PS. Forgot to mention Saren, who was mostly cyborg and totally under the control of his reaper boss.

I would not describe Miranda as synthetic. More like geneticly spliced. I'm not completely sure I understand where you're going. You say that synthesis works on the lower levels. That the beam itself is infused in the body (software-wise you mean). That still doesn't solve the issue regarding the magic, nor the tranformation from synthetics point of view. Software would require hardware. From what I know about DNA (i'm no expert on this subject, not at all), it's the instructions in which the body is devoloped. So if you change the DNA, you change how the body evovles. The idea to infuse synthetics with DNA is rather absurd, if you ask me, because that is not what defines a synthetic. Computers and robots works in binary code. Not with DNA. It seems so abstract and incomprehensible. So I would still say that synthesis would require some hardware to be installed.
The other way around, would also require thing to magicly appear within their bodies. Simply because synthetics do not have the components themselves to make DNA and organic tissue. 

Modifié par Steve The Seal, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:29 .

[Ownedbacon]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steve The Seal wrote...

Most of those issues are explained in the codex. Those issues can be accepted because they consist of a bit of science and a bit of science fiction.
The major problem I have with synthesis is this:
"I shoot you with a beam, now you're a cyborg!"
That is utter rubbish! Suddenly something comes from nothing. You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics, but that would require that you open up the body (as with shep in me2). Simply shooting someone with a beam to make them a cyborg is what a child playing around with his friends with come up with. It's idiotic, illogical and irrational.
It even bothers me more, when it's the other way around. How the heck do you make a robot part organic?! That in modern science would be considered highly imorale to do and a monstrousity, because it would require that you inserted organic body parts into the robot (the brain mostly).
That's why it's stupid. That's a part of why synthesis is disgusting (besides destroying diversity). That is why it's space-magic and does not belong in the ME series.

technically, from what I gathered from the game, they weren't 'instant cyborgs', or cyborgs at all like , say, star trek borg, who install parts of tech that control or don't, human hosts, Shepard could be considered "some" cyborg, and the Illusive man and many of his cohorts were cyborg. Miranda had specially seperated DNA additives, I think would mean she was a higher level cyborg, but  mostly human, or humanoid, depending on where the DNA came from. The  inclusion of the dreaded green beam, worked, apparently, on a lower level and infused genetically with organics and technically with synthetics. How this occurs whould probably best left up to the techs who mostly/more than we understand the actualy science around it. Did anyone notice Joker still hobbled off the normandy,even after he was zapped by the green beam.. apparently it doesn't cure all things organic, but merely doses the recipient with enough tech to say they're no longer completely organic.

PS. Forgot to mention Saren, who was mostly cyborg and totally under the control of his reaper boss.

"You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics"

Whether they were exactly cyborgs or not Steve The Seal was making a point about how synthesis happens in ME3 instantaneously rather than through natural technological advancement. Instead of evolving into synthesized beings people are suddenly transformed from a dissolved Commander dispersed across the galaxy. Controlling/Destroying synthetics/machines is one thing. Changing DNA of all organics and giving synthetics DNA instantaneously is another.

Its more unbelievable than control and destroy. Control should have been similar to going into the Geth consensus. Realistically Destroy should have affected all technology.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[Wayning_Star]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

some folks beleived that if Shepard chose the control option, it would be Okay, cause they could trust Shepard with the unlimited knowlege and power of the reaper compendium...But others have suspension of disbelief that reaper tech and Protheian programing could make possible a super weapon/contraption that could alter spacetime,hyper influence matter (everything is matter,even organics) at a sub molecular level, altering it? But everyone in the MEU would be foolish enough to build such a space magical device, because they have to..to make a choice forced upon them by a race of quasi sentient machines from the past?... Who'd of thunk?!?

I have no idea what any of that means. Too much snark and sarcasm perhaps clouds the intention of the parapgraph. 

Adding to my point though; most things on that list aren't important to the plot. They're essentially fluff ideas. Synthesis and its mechanics are very important.

it's not cynical, unless you consider the tree of choices 'un essential' to the plot?!? I think the application of the term "space magic" to the plot is a rather sneaky way of saying you don't know or care, just argue for the sake of arguement.  What I outlined obove IS the plot tree. My attempt at humor,notwithstanding...

[o Ventus]

Heeden wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...


That's not what Synthesis does, it isn't even suggested by the Catalyst.

Synthesis mixes Shepard's organic energy with the energy of the Crucible and disperses it across the galaxy. How this allows organics to integrate perfectly with technology is not fully explained, but if unobtainium can turn people in to wizards whilst Asari and Protheans can share information psychically the space-magic is not that far-out in ME terms.

No, that's what Synthesis does. I worded it differently than the Catalyst does, but it's a literal change in organics (as evidenced by the glowing eyes, circuitboard patterns, and cyber-DNA in the epilogue narration) and a "spiritual" one in synthetics.

You said " It's literally conjuring and grafting cybernetics into organics", that is very different to "dispersing energy across the galaxy", for one your version is impossible even by ME's rules.

Yet it's what happens. Disagree? Watch the epilogue narration.

Modifié par o Ventus, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:51 .

[Steve The Seal]

Ownedbacon wrote...


"You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics"

Whether they were exactly cyborgs or not Steve The Seal was making a point about how synthesis happens in ME3 instantaneously rather than through natural technological advancement. Instead of evolving into synthesized beings people are suddenly transformed from a dissolved Commander dispersed across the galaxy. Controlling/Destroying synthetics/machines is one thing. Changing DNA of all organics and giving synthetics DNA instantaneously is another.

Its more unbelievable than control and destroy. Control should have been similar to going into the Geth consensus. Realistically Destroy should have affected all technology.

There is a thing that boogles me. What is the definition of a synthetic? From what Wayning_Star said, it sounds like he believes that it is a lifeform that can evovle. It cannot, if you ask me. Synthetics are simply advance robots - still hardeware and software. Humans are also hardeware and software, but in a completely different and more advance way. Synthetics can't evovle. Not without they, themselves create a new body with new materials. It's all so far fetched and hard to even argue about. It would say that natural technological advancement via synthetics is not even possible. You can change how the body evovles with genetical splicing, like Miranda, but that would not require installment of synthetics.

And the destroy part is nice, haven't thought about that one 

Modifié par Steve The Seal, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[Wayning_Star]

Steve The Seal wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steve The Seal wrote...

Most of those issues are explained in the codex. Those issues can be accepted because they consist of a bit of science and a bit of science fiction.
The major problem I have with synthesis is this:
"I shoot you with a beam, now you're a cyborg!"
That is utter rubbish! Suddenly something comes from nothing. You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics, but that would require that you open up the body (as with shep in me2). Simply shooting someone with a beam to make them a cyborg is what a child playing around with his friends with come up with. It's idiotic, illogical and irrational.
It even bothers me more, when it's the other way around. How the heck do you make a robot part organic?! That in modern science would be considered highly imorale to do and a monstrousity, because it would require that you inserted organic body parts into the robot (the brain mostly).
That's why it's stupid. That's a part of why synthesis is disgusting (besides destroying diversity). That is why it's space-magic and does not belong in the ME series.

technically, from what I gathered from the game, they weren't 'instant cyborgs', or cyborgs at all like , say, star trek borg, who install parts of tech that control or don't, human hosts, Shepard could be considered "some" cyborg, and the Illusive man and many of his cohorts were cyborg. Miranda had specially seperated DNA additives, I think would mean she was a higher level cyborg, but  mostly human, or humanoid, depending on where the DNA came from. The  inclusion of the dreaded green beam, worked, apparently, on a lower level and infused genetically with organics and technically with synthetics. How this occurs whould probably best left up to the techs who mostly/more than we understand the actualy science around it. Did anyone notice Joker still hobbled off the normandy,even after he was zapped by the green beam.. apparently it doesn't cure all things organic, but merely doses the recipient with enough tech to say they're no longer completely organic.

PS. Forgot to mention Saren, who was mostly cyborg and totally under the control of his reaper boss.

I would not describe Miranda as synthetic. More like geneticly spliced. I'm not completely sure I understand where you're going. You say that synthesis works on the lower levels. That the beam itself is infused in the body (software-wise you mean). That still doesn't solve the issue regarding the magic, nor the tranformation from synthetics point of view. Software would require hardware. From what I know about DNA (i'm no expert on this subject, not at all), it's the instructions in which the body is devoloped. So if you change the DNA, you change how the body evovles. The idea to infuse synthetics with DNA is rather absurd, if you ask me, because that is not what defines a synthetic. Computers and robots works in binary code. Not with DNA. It seems so abstract and incomprehensible. So I would still say that synthesis would require some hardware to be installed.
The other way around, would also require thing to magicly appear within their bodies. Simply because synthetics do not have the components themselves to make DNA and organic tissue. 

DNA can be altered down to the level of plant life, basic building blocks of matter "could" be altered on that level, we have no way of knowing if reaper tech and/or prothiean science combined with who knows how much energy the crucible contained, (quite a bit if you consider what/who it took to "just" assemble it. It's no great leap of faith to assume that it's capable of a transmission on a level great enough to accomplish it's design goals of which we haven't an inkling, nor the MEU folks who built and assembled it.). Nothing 'appears' there, whats there is manipulated,it would have to be to acomplish the design goals, not what us observers "think" it might do, it's totally alien. Even the techs who programmed it can only follow(barely) the design perimiters, according to the info provided observers. The game onl says it's a weapon, or it "could be", of unfathomable power, they could barely find the stuff to energize it. The term space magic is getting to be the favored cop out on the tech specs for impossible invention, becoming an impossible invention it's self I fear..

[Wayning_Star]

Steve The Seal wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...


"You may be right that in the future synthetics may be installed in organics"

Whether they were exactly cyborgs or not Steve The Seal was making a point about how synthesis happens in ME3 instantaneously rather than through natural technological advancement. Instead of evolving into synthesized beings people are suddenly transformed from a dissolved Commander dispersed across the galaxy. Controlling/Destroying synthetics/machines is one thing. Changing DNA of all organics and giving synthetics DNA instantaneously is another.

Its more unbelievable than control and destroy. Control should have been similar to going into the Geth consensus. Realistically Destroy should have affected all technology.

There is a thing that boogles me. What is the definition of a synthetic? From what Wayning_Star said, it sounds like he believes that it is a lifeform that can evovle. It cannot, if you ask me. Synthetics are simply advance robots - still hardeware and software. Humans are also hardeware and software, but in a completely different and more advance way. Synthetics can't evovle. Not without they, themselves create a new body with new materials. It's all so far fetched and hard to even argue about. It would say that natural technological advancement via synthetics is not even possible. You can change how the body evovles with genetical splicing, like Miranda, but that would not require installment of synthetics.

And the destroy part is nice, haven't thought about that one 

Uh oh..busted, oh wait!?!

http://en.wikipedia....ary_computation

[The Night Mammoth]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

some folks beleived that if Shepard chose the control option, it would be Okay, cause they could trust Shepard with the unlimited knowlege and power of the reaper compendium...But others have suspension of disbelief that reaper tech and Protheian programing could make possible a super weapon/contraption that could alter spacetime,hyper influence matter (everything is matter,even organics) at a sub molecular level, altering it? But everyone in the MEU would be foolish enough to build such a space magical device, because they have to..to make a choice forced upon them by a race of quasi sentient machines from the past?... Who'd of thunk?!?

I have no idea what any of that means. Too much snark and sarcasm perhaps clouds the intention of the parapgraph. 

Adding to my point though; most things on that list aren't important to the plot. They're essentially fluff ideas. Synthesis and its mechanics are very important.

it's not cynical, unless you consider the tree of choices 'un essential' to the plot?!?

This does not appear to be connected to anything said previously in the discussion. Moving on. 

I think the application of the term "space magic" to the plot is a rather sneaky way of saying you don't know or care, just argue for the sake of arguement.  

Know or care about what, exactly? 

Some people might use it as a get-out-of-jail free card, but I don't. Evidently, I'm quite willing to discuss the issue. 

The Crucible and its workings are not established in the game. The effects of the Synthesis are not fully revealed, the mechanics behind them are not elaborated upon. That makes it almost the opposite of the things in that list. Whether bullsh*t psuedo-science or not, there's at least some reasonable explanation for each of them within the fictional universe, most are not important to the plot, some are, all are established early enough to keep the suspension of disbelief intact. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Heeden]

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...

You said " It's literally conjuring and grafting cybernetics into organics", that is very different to "dispersing energy across the galaxy", for one your version is impossible even by ME's rules.

Yet it's what happens. Disagree? Watch the epilogue narration.

I watched, I saw. Magic green light everywhere, no cybernetics. In fact the epilogue scenes are identical to the ones used for Control and Destroy, minus the light.

[Heeden]

Steve The Seal wrote...

There is a thing that boogles me. What is the definition of a synthetic? From what Wayning_Star said, it sounds like he believes that it is a lifeform that can evovle. It cannot, if you ask me. Synthetics are simply advance robots - still hardeware and software. Humans are also hardeware and software, but in a completely different and more advance way. Synthetics can't evovle. Not without they, themselves create a new body with new materials. It's all so far fetched and hard to even argue about. It would say that natural technological advancement via synthetics is not even possible. You can change how the body evovles with genetical splicing, like Miranda, but that would not require installment of synthetics.

And the destroy part is nice, haven't thought about that one 

At one point one of the characters (Legion I think) says Synthetics are being created for a purpose whereas organics evolve without one. By that definition Miranda and resurrected-Shepard would both be at least part-synthetic (and both rebelled against their creators, Miranda's father and Cerberus respectively).

[Wayning_Star]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

some folks beleived that if Shepard chose the control option, it would be Okay, cause they could trust Shepard with the unlimited knowlege and power of the reaper compendium...But others have suspension of disbelief that reaper tech and Protheian programing could make possible a super weapon/contraption that could alter spacetime,hyper influence matter (everything is matter,even organics) at a sub molecular level, altering it? But everyone in the MEU would be foolish enough to build such a space magical device, because they have to..to make a choice forced upon them by a race of quasi sentient machines from the past?... Who'd of thunk?!?

I have no idea what any of that means. Too much snark and sarcasm perhaps clouds the intention of the parapgraph. 

Adding to my point though; most things on that list aren't important to the plot. They're essentially fluff ideas. Synthesis and its mechanics are very important.

it's not cynical, unless you consider the tree of choices 'un essential' to the plot?!?

This does not appear to be connected to anything said previously in the discussion. Moving on. 

I think the application of the term "space magic" to the plot is a rather sneaky way of saying you don't know or care, just argue for the sake of arguement.  

Know or care about what, exactly? 

Some people might use it as a get-out-of-jail free card, but I don't. Evidently, I'm quite willing to discuss the issue. 

The Crucible and its workings are not established in the game. The effects of the Synthesis are not fully revealed, the mechanics behind them are not elaborated upon. That makes it almost the opposite of the things in that list. Whether bullsh*t psuedo-science or not, there's at least some reasonable explanation for each of them within the fictional universe, most are not important to the plot, some are, all are established early enough to keep the suspension of disbelief intact. 

I see you're point, but have to disagree, I have no trouble believing that such stuf could be possible in the MEU, as all through the game they show the endgame as too much to explain, only experienced. All things considered,its not unusual for some stuff in a sci fi story to require user imagniation. or take it on faith, go with the inferences. Many books I've read of that genre, often rely on the needs of the few, not the needs of the many, not to explain the nuts'n bolts of every technology to generally accept it's actuallity in some distant, alien reality. In the game the crucible is one of those contraptions that was 'best left' un explained. Just hinted at, the user could invest their own forms of explanation, if needed, to it's viability in the story. In this instance, I'd say that the yea's and nays are with equal ammo for dissemination, so that would mean it could go 'either way'...quite easily. In chess, they call that a draw. No winner, and luckly, no loser..

Yay!!

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:19 .

[kookie28]

Shepard surviving destroy doesn't make much sense either.

[memorysquid]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Well sure.

But there's this thing that a lot of people have when experiencing fiction called the 'suspension of disbelief'.

Everything in that list is established early within the Mass Effect universe, using Mass Effect universe rules, and explained with the appropriate random pseudo-scientific jargon so it's all relatively believable. It all makes a certain about of your typical fictional sense.

Synthesis is the opposite of that.

Balderdash!  Not only does it get some vague handwaving jargon BUT it also gets a cool little DNA wire diagram. 

[Merchant2006]

F***ing Mass Effect, how does it work?

[Wayning_Star]

Heeden wrote...

Steve The Seal wrote...

There is a thing that boogles me. What is the definition of a synthetic? From what Wayning_Star said, it sounds like he believes that it is a lifeform that can evovle. It cannot, if you ask me. Synthetics are simply advance robots - still hardeware and software. Humans are also hardeware and software, but in a completely different and more advance way. Synthetics can't evovle. Not without they, themselves create a new body with new materials. It's all so far fetched and hard to even argue about. It would say that natural technological advancement via synthetics is not even possible. You can change how the body evovles with genetical splicing, like Miranda, but that would not require installment of synthetics.

And the destroy part is nice, haven't thought about that one 

At one point one of the characters (Legion I think) says Synthetics are being created for a purpose whereas organics evolve without one. By that definition Miranda and resurrected-Shepard would both be at least part-synthetic (and both rebelled against their creators, Miranda's father and Cerberus respectively).

he said that geth were created for a purpose, but was unsure of what that was, being subservant to his creators, wasn't one of them tho.. being cyborg didn't qualify as full synthetic, so the 'rebellion' quotient doens't apply.. One thing stuck in my head during the game,with all the reaping going on, about the fact that the synthetic reapers recycle organics just like organics recycle synthetics when they're operational duty cycle was exceeded.
I don't know if it were intended by the writers or just a co incidence of the battle between the two.

[Wayning_Star]

Heeden wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...

You said " It's literally conjuring and grafting cybernetics into organics", that is very different to "dispersing energy across the galaxy", for one your version is impossible even by ME's rules.

Yet it's what happens. Disagree? Watch the epilogue narration.

I watched, I saw. Magic green light everywhere, no cybernetics. In fact the epilogue scenes are identical to the ones used for Control and Destroy, minus the light.

if you look close at the leaves and other stuff, you can see little circuits glowing within..almost like those Intel/Microsofty stickers on the puter.

[Blueprotoss]

Grimwick wrote...


?????? Y U NO MAKE SENSE?

That line had nothing to do with control or destroy...

You said that Synthesis is magic based on its grtreen light then Control and Destroy would follow with thier lights.

Grimwick wrote... 

No it isn't... it's completely science based. You're thinking of Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction.

The game makes a premise that eezo and it's properties exist. From extrapolating this premise they can explain how FTL drives work, loosely explain how biotics work. explain artificial gravity. the communication systems such as quantum entanglers are based on modern scientific principles. There is little magic, but when there is it is glaringly obvious to anyone who studies science.

It appears those who don't seem to understand the principles at work think everything is space magic...

You do know faster then light travel is science fiction just like time travel, which would be space magic.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Well sure.

But there's this thing that a lot of people have when experiencing fiction called the 'suspension of disbelief'.

Everything in that list is established early within the Mass Effect universe, using Mass Effect universe rules, and explained with the appropriate random pseudo-scientific jargon so it's all relatively believable. It all makes a certain about of your typical fictional sense.

Synthesis is the opposite of that.

Yes to the green light  but no to the Synthesis going against ME's universe.

[Blueprotoss]

o Ventus wrote...

Yet it's what happens. Disagree? Watch the epilogue narration.

Yet the Epilogue doesn't support you based on how its after the credits.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

"From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space".

- Mac Walters

ok what goes on in Mac's head

He uses common sense.

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I didn't say ME was real idiot and you think zombies are real

Yet you're acting like ME is real and the process called Zombification is real in Haiti while its process based on mind control with special drugs and voodo.

can someone point out where I said ME was real please?

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I didn't say ME was real idiot and you think zombies are real

Yet you're acting like ME is real and the process called Zombification is real in Haiti while its process based on mind control with special drugs and voodo.

can someone point out where I said ME was real please?

You do act as if ME is real based on its physics even when its based around the space magic ingredient called Element Zero.