661 réponses à ce sujet

[Eluril]

Quixal wrote...

Eluril wrote...
Again, The Guardian of Forever....is that "Space magic"? Who cares if it is, it leads to great storytelling.

If this is your stance, why are you complaining about synthesis being labeled as space magic?

Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

[alienatedflea]

space magic is a cop out for whiney little brats...everything in the series is magic!!! there is no mass effect relays...no mars prothaean archives...no reapers...no citadel...no asari...no turians...no krogan or geth...sooo if you want to b*&(h about anything...then fine...but saying space magic and the arguement is closed is sooo effin stupid...

[Strange Aeons]

Eluril wrote...

If synthesis can be dismissed as "space magic" and not plausible in the ME universe then the following can also be labeled "Space magic"

Reaper indoctrination - How does that work?
Reaper liquification and mind absorbtion - How does that work?
Liara's gift and asari psionic abilities - How does that work?
The Citadel and the mass relays - How does that work?
Guns that shoot shaved pieces of metal  - How does that work?
Biotics - How does that work?
Shepard absorbing the "collective conscious" of the Protheans via the Thorian - How does that work?
The Prothean beacons - How does that work?

Those other things you mention did not emerge suddenly from the arse of a newly-introduced, never-before-seen character in the last few minutes of the game to resolve the central conflict of a series that had spanned five years. 

I think that's kind of the main objection, in case it wasn't clear.

[Master_Smurf]

To the OP - God bless your heart but you can only lead a horse to water.

[AresKeith]

as James Vega once said

" its not right, it looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but its not right, its just an illusion"

[PSUHammer]

alienatedflea wrote...

space magic is a cop out for whiney little brats...everything in the series is magic!!! there is no mass effect relays...no mars prothaean archives...no reapers...no citadel...no asari...no turians...no krogan or geth...sooo if you want to b*&(h about anything...then fine...but saying space magic and the arguement is closed is sooo effin stupid...

cognitive dissonance

[elitehunter34]

Eluril wrote...

Quixal wrote...

Eluril wrote...
Again, The Guardian of Forever....is that "Space magic"? Who cares if it is, it leads to great storytelling.

If this is your stance, why are you complaining about synthesis being labeled as space magic?

Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

Not everyone one is saying that.  Many people don't like Syntheisis because it breaks their suspension of disbelief.  It's not because "its not science" or anything like that.  Read my post on page 19.  I've already explained why I don't like Synthesis.  Don't assume that everyone believes the same things for the same reasons.

[Cobretti ftw]

read the thread

laffs

<-- previous page

[webhead921]

Eluril wrote...


Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

Extremely well said.  I 100% agree.

[Krunjar]

webhead921 wrote...

Eluril wrote...


Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

Extremely well said.  I 100% agree.

Seconded and ...

Honestly guys it's time to just accept the fact that ALL the endings to Me3 are valid and ALL of them make sense for different kinds of Shepard. Also Sci-Fi has gone well into god-machine territory before without establishing some protest. In fact I was more or less expecting a confrontation somewhat like the catalyst right from Me1. 

However it has to be said that the catalyst is the archetypal god machine. Of a kind that though it should not be unexpected has not before been seen in the Me Universe. However having the rules change at the last minute is I  think not an invalid strategy when it comes to an ending. Some people don't like it but it isn't an invalid strategy. And neither is the degree of "space magic" that they used. Let's face it the term "Space Magic" is highly subjective. We all headcannon different things to be or be not Space Magic. And we all have a different threshold before we go wait .. what .. holdon?!?

I think as a community we need to take a step back and just acknowledge other peoples opinions rather than viciously arguing subjective viewpoints based on interconnecing webs of speculation. Trying to prove anything at all in an environment like that is simply a very good way to make youre hair fall out early.

[Grand Champion]

This thread is going in circles. But I shall try.
People don't like Synthesis because it's not believeable within the realm of the Mass Effect universe. NOT STAR WARS, STAR TREK, POKEMON, OR WHATEVER OTHER UNIVERSE.

The ending is subject to bad writing, that's it. The second they introduced the beam going to the Citadel everything past that is just space magic. Space magic is something that cannot be done within the boundries of the universe, but happens anyways. The beam to the Citadel could have worked if it beamed Shepard out where the mini-mass relay was in the first Mass Effect. But it didn't. So it is therefor space magic. Somehow the Illusive Man can control Shepard and Anderson even though he isn't a Reaper. And before someone says "LoL TIM is being controlled by a Reaper so he can do that." No. If that were the case then Saren could have controlled Shepard.

Synthesis is space magic because having a wave that instantly turns everyone into a cyborg is NOT possible within the ME universe.

I'm shocked that this thread hasn't been locked by an admin or something.

Modifié par Wertom Three, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[webhead921]

The best argument against synthesis: don't choose it. Who cares if other people choose it? It's their ME universe, they can end it however they want. One of my shepards chose synthesis, and once chose destroy. The fact that one shepard chose synthesis does not invalidate the other shepard's choice to destroy the reapers.

[Krunjar]

Wertom Three wrote...

This thread is going in circles. But I shall try.
People don't like Synthesis because it's not believeable within the realm of the Mass Effect universe. NOT STAR WARS, STAR TREK, POKEMON, OR WHATEVER OTHER UNIVERSE.

The ending is subject to bad writing, that's it.(OPINION) The second they introduced the beam going to the Citadel everything past that is just space magic.(OPINION) Space magic is something that cannot be done within the boundries of the universe, but happens anyways. The beam to the Citadel could have worked if it beamed Shepard out where the mini-mass relay was in the first Mass Effect. But it didn't.(Inventing limitations on fictional technolgy that you didn't write .. Opinion and Headcannon) So it is therefor space magic. (OPINION) Somehow the Illusive Man can control Shepard and Anderson even though he isn't a Reaper. And before someone says "LoL TIM is being controlled by a Reaper so he can do that." (Any pro ender with that argument is just thick Tim can control them because he augmented himself with reaper tech this does not automatically make himself the same creature as Saren but he IS subject to indoctrination) No. If that were the case then Saren could have controlled Shepard.

Synthesis is space magic because having a wave that instantly turns everyone into a cyborg is NOT possible within the ME universe. (OPINION)

I'm shocked that this thread hasn't been locked by an admin or something.

(Need I say more ... )

I am going  to demonstrate the problem with picking apart the endings because you don't like them. Read the edited text above. There is a difference between inconsistencies and things that you don't like.

Modifié par Krunjar, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[Grand Champion]

Lol like I said I would try. Haha. But the last one is not opinion. The wave turned everyone into a hybrid of synthetic and organic, therefor they are cyborgs. But I gave it my best shot so oh well.

On a side note: Why would you pick Control or Synthesis, that would make Shepard the biggest hypocrite in the galaxy. Since Saren pushed for Synthesis and TIM pushed for Control.

[Blueprotoss]

Wertom Three wrote...

Lol like I said I would try. Haha. But the last one is not opinion. The wave turned everyone into a hybrid of synthetic and organic, therefor they are cyborgs. But I gave it my best shot so oh well.

On a side note: Why would you pick Control or Synthesis, that would make Shepard the biggest hypocrite in the galaxy. Since Saren pushed for Synthesis and TIM pushed for Control.

Synthesis is space magic just likeust Control and Destroy.  I also want to add that most of things in ME are magic, which that isn't a bad thing.  Either you did try.

Its all about opinion there since those 3 choices will allow Shepard to stop the Reapers, which is the basic goal for him/her.

[PSUHammer]

Eluril wrote...

Quixal wrote...

Eluril wrote...
Again, The Guardian of Forever....is that "Space magic"? Who cares if it is, it leads to great storytelling.

If this is your stance, why are you complaining about synthesis being labeled as space magic?

Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

You pretty much win the thread.  I was curious about why people were complaining about synthesis and after reading through, I am unconvinced of the "space magic" argument.  You nailed it with what I was thinking.  It boils down to people just not personally liking that ending so they have to find SOME way to justify it to themselves.  I always found the "space magic" argument a slippery slope as we can argue that point with any new story or plot line introduced.  And, the codex isn't some mystical ME bible.  The writers themselves have stated they try to make everything consistent across the games/comics/novels but they miss details here and there.

Everything in the game is space magic to me!  It is just escapism entertainment meant to be fun.  If it let's me blow off steam after a long day at the office, great.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[o Ventus]

Blueprotoss wrote...
I see that you haven't paid attention in your history classes.

I could say the same about you.

Disease didn't involve science across the world until the early to mid 20th Century yet there are still a lot people think disease is caused by curses.

This is false.

How Da Vinci thought of his inventions are still unknown, which means you can't jump the gunon that.

You are aware da Vinci was also a scientist, right? You sure he didn't come up with his ideas, y'know, scientifically?

I doubt that you know this based on how Atlantis hasn't been found.

Says the person claiming fact for the opposing viewpoint. Hypocrisy or double standard?

Mythology alone proves you wrong.

Civilizations are not mythology. I'm trying very hard not to insult your intelligence.

Ironically you can just be proven wrong by Scientology.

You're aware Scientology is the world's most elaborate Nigerian Prince scam, right?

[AlexMBrennan]

Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter

It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now. Plus, your argument is: Some other work also features bad writing, therefore it is good writing...

"Synthesis means the death of diversity"

Synthesis *must* mean the death of diversity for it to be a viable solution to the Reaper problem. If you retained diversity, Reapers and the newly-formed organic-synthetic hybrids would just keep killing each other, much like we humans have been killing one another for millennia - over resources, minor differences, etc.

Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!

That's a strawman. The problem with synthesis is
a) it is bad writing - do you thing Lord of the Rings would work if they only introduced the One Ring in the last 5 minutes of Return of the King? This is what people mean when they cry "space magic", and what you don't get.
it is illogical - it does not logically follow from the description that it is a viable solution to the Reaper problem [conversely, it does logically follow from the description of destruction that destruction is a viable solution to the Reaper threat - because destroying all Reapers will stop them killing you. Duh]. Bioware forces the player to make Shepard act out of character to get the "best" ending. That is bad.

They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis

That's an argument after the fact. You cannot use it to justify Shepard's decision. Thus the previous argument applies. If you don't understand why, then maybe you should spend less time dissing science and more time getting a degree in science or mathematics.

I always found the "space magic" argument a slippery slope as we can argue that point with any new story or plot line introduced

It's a matter of craftsmanship. It can be done well. For example, control was established well - you spend ME2 with Cerberus gathering Cerberus and Reaper tech; in Retribution you learn about them experimenting with Reaper tech on Grayson and in ME3 the idea of control is introduced first by encountering huskified but still loyal Cerberus troopers, and later on Sanctuary well before the encounter with Godchild.

The problem is purely execution. It could have been done well, but Bioware didn't have the time or couldn't be bothered. Either way, it is bad writing and you cannot argue otherwise.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .

[Memnon]

Eluril wrote...

Because people use the space magic thing to attack synthesis as part of the story. They don't like the idea as a story piece so they come up with the excuse that it is bad because it is not "SCIENCE!!" They lie to themselves that synthesis between organics and synthetics has been part of ME from the beginning (The Reapers) and they just willfully ignore the parts of the story that go against their interpretation. Notice that even in the dark energy ending the Reapers were absorbing organic matter. It's been part of them and their concept from ME1 all the way through and only was revealed to the player explicitly at the end of 2.  They then ignore for example the fact that EDI is more individual and more alive post-synthesis yet continue to harp on the idea that "Synthesis means the death of diversity". So instead of dealing with this evidence they say "It's not science in the universe because it doesn't have a codex entry". That's why it bugs me.

Again, claiming that the "space magic" is what bothers people about Synthesis is a straw man argument. What bothers people - myself included - is that it is completely out of line with the rules established by the setting. From the opening scrawl of ME1, you learn the eezo is a new 'space magicky' element which behaves a special way when a current is applied to it. We learn how it applies to biotics, how it allows FTL travel, anti-gravity, etc. At no point when reading this did I feel like my suspension of disbelief was wrenched out of whack - I accepted it because it was a new, interesting way of introducing a new science fiction setting. I bought it and I loved it. Synthesis was so far out of nowhere that it made many people just blink in amazement - they didn't even try to tie it in with eezo, or mass effect fields, or anything. You're told that you toss yourself into a big beam, your organic matter is decomposed and distributed to the galaxy and bam! Green people. This is a huge disconnect, and it does break the suspension of disbelief ... 

[KingZayd]

Eluril wrote...

legion999 wrote...

The first six have been explained.

And Prometheus isn't exactly known for great writing.

What do you mean by "explained"? A few lines in a codex or a few lines of dialogue were more than enough to explain how it works in the universe. I'm perfectly happy with that. What I am getting at is that people focus on things being "explained" in the universe as if it needs to have to be diagrammed exactly how it would work. That's not science fiction, that's a scientific colloquium.

And Ridley Scott should be praised for having the balls to use visuals to tell as much of his story as he can in Prometheus. And care to debate me on whether Prometheus is better than Alien 3 or Alien Resurrection?

They give you the information required to get the gist of how this is possible given the existence of "eezo", that when subjected to currents can either increase or decrease the mass in a given field. The fact that eezo does this is given in the codex.

Synthesis gives you nothing to explain how this green wave can suddenly add synthetic parts to all organics [taking account of the differences between organic species], (add organic parts to all synthetics. Bracketed as people dispute whether or not this actually happens), give synthetics a better understanding of organics etc.

And then there's the whole preserving ecosystems thing when the nutrients needed to make the organosynthetic hybrids are different to the ones needed for pure organics, meaning that after so many years of evolution, the vast majority of habitats become unsuitable.

[KingZayd]

xsdob wrote...

How can something go faster than light when light has next to no mass and can only go as fast as light?

7

They create an FTL field where light can travel faster (c=sqroot [1/epsilon0.mu0]). Create a space where the permitivity/permeability is changed, then the speed of light will change.

How they do that, who knows?

[Eluril]

Wertom Three wrote...

This thread is going in circles. But I shall try.
People don't like Synthesis because it's not believeable within the realm of the Mass Effect universe. NOT STAR WARS, STAR TREK, POKEMON, OR WHATEVER OTHER UNIVERSE.

The ending is subject to bad writing, that's it. The second they introduced the beam going to the Citadel everything past that is just space magic. Space magic is something that cannot be done within the boundries of the universe, but happens anyways. The beam to the Citadel could have worked if it beamed Shepard out where the mini-mass relay was in the first Mass Effect. But it didn't. So it is therefor space magic. Somehow the Illusive Man can control Shepard and Anderson even though he isn't a Reaper. And before someone says "LoL TIM is being controlled by a Reaper so he can do that." No. If that were the case then Saren could have controlled Shepard.

Synthesis is space magic because having a wave that instantly turns everyone into a cyborg is NOT possible within the ME universe.

I'm shocked that this thread hasn't been locked by an admin or something.

I'm sure at the end of Mass Effect 1 if you had said "Liquifying organics to absorb them and preserve their consciousness is not possible in the Mass Effect universe" most people would have agreed. Guess what? It's not up to the audience to decide what is and is not possible in a fictional universe. It's the creators power and responsibilty to make things work in a universe however they want. If they want it to be a medium sci-fi setting in which there is at least some explanation (not SCIENCE!!) that explains things so be it.  Kubrick made the decision to shape the Star Child in 2001 as a Star Child. Who would've predicted that at the begining of the movie? Unexpected changes to a universe are not unheard of and in fact I would argue that is what makes it appealing.

My point of view can be summed up as this: 1. Stop calling synthesis "space magic" if you mean it was badly written. "space magic" is simply an excuse to hand wave something away that you don't like without giving reasons for why it is bad and in and of itself and instead simply claim "That's not possible in the ME universe as presented and controlled by Bioware". 2. Explain why it is invalid as a conclusion of the series taking into consideration other pieces of evidence that have been laid out.

[o Ventus]

Eluril wrote...

I'm sure at the end of Mass Effect 1 if you had said "Liquifying organics to absorb them and preserve their consciousness is not possible in the Mass Effect universe" most people would have agreed. Guess what? It's not up to the audience to decide what is and is not possible in a fictional universe. 

Fascinating strawman, sir.