661 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

I'm sure at the end of Mass Effect 1 if you had said "Liquifying organics to absorb them and preserve their consciousness is not possible in the Mass Effect universe" most people would have agreed. Guess what? It's not up to the audience to decide what is and is not possible in a fictional universe. 

Fascinating strawman, sir.

This.

elrl pls

[Eluril]

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

I'm sure at the end of Mass Effect 1 if you had said "Liquifying organics to absorb them and preserve their consciousness is not possible in the Mass Effect universe" most people would have agreed. Guess what? It's not up to the audience to decide what is and is not possible in a fictional universe. 

Fascinating strawman, sir.

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

[o Ventus]

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Modifié par o Ventus, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:41 .

[KingZayd]

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

I'm sure at the end of Mass Effect 1 if you had said "Liquifying organics to absorb them and preserve their consciousness is not possible in the Mass Effect universe" most people would have agreed. Guess what? It's not up to the audience to decide what is and is not possible in a fictional universe. 

Fascinating strawman, sir.

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

1. It was in no way "on par" with most of the rest of the universe

2. How ironic.

3. Because biotics aren't that strange given the existence of eezo. The only real issue there is with biologically how well people adapt to the presence of eezo. But then we don't know how powerful human biotics are without amplification.

[Eluril]

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Complains about strawman, then uses straw man.

I'm not saying it's deuces wild anything goes in the ME universe. I'm saying for it being the end of the game the explanation is equivalent in detail to the explanation given for the control and destroy options. It's still you saying "I have a subjective standard for what is acceptable in a science fiction universe and everyone must accept this standard." Well I for one don't. I'm pretty sure the pro-synthesis thread that is like 40 pages doesn't accept it either.

Also convenient that you chose something super grounded like mass accelerator weapons as your comparison point. I'm thinking more along the lines of various Biotic powers (Charge for example or singularity), the reaper liquification and absorbtion of minds, indoctrination in general, and various other things I listed in the first post. Synthesis might be a step beyond that I agree. It might even be a dealbreaker for some people. But it isn't for me because I don't have the same standards as you do for "suspension of disbelief". Lots of people don't.

Modifié par Eluril, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[Taboo]

He did not strawman

One is explained in game, across hundreds of hours.

The other is brought up at the last minute and is forced down your throat.

A basic comprehension of writing tells you which one is acceptable and which one is not.

[Karimloo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He did not strawman

One is explained in game, across hundreds of hours.

The other is brought up at the last minute and is forced down your throat.

A basic comprehension of writing tells you which one is acceptable and which one is not.

[Memnon]

Let's take a look at this explanation of what Synthesis is:

Catalyst: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new DNA.
Shepard: How?
Catalyst: Your organic energy, the essence of who and what you are will be broken down and then dispersered
Shepard: To do what?
Catalyst: The energy of the Crucible, released in this way will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. Organics will be perfected by intergrating fully with synthetic technology; synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach Synthesis.
Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner
Catalyst: We have tried a similar solution in the past, but it has always failed
Shepard: Why
Catalyst: Because the organics were not ready, it's not something that can be forced. You are ready, and you may choose it
Catalyst: Synthesis is the final evolution of all life

So ... how does organic energy - the essence of what you are (which is mostly water, by the way) amplify the Crucible's beam to change the framework of every living being in the galaxy? At rest you produce what ... 100 watts? And what is special about Shepard's energy?

Also - it was implied that the Catalyst tried to "force" organics into Synthesis in the past but they were not ready. However Shepard is ready ... but by choosing Synthesis, he is "forcing" it on the entire galaxy. How does the Crucible understand this subtle difference

Really ... read those lines of dialogue and tell me they make perfect sense

As an aside, if Synthesis was forced in the past what was the method of delivery?

Modifié par Stornskar, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .

[o Ventus]

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Complains about strawman, then uses straw man.

I'm not saying it's deuces wild anything goes in the ME universe. I'm saying for it being the end of the game the explanation is equivalent in detail to the explanation given for the control and destroy options. It's still you saying "I have a subjective standard for what is acceptable in a science fiction universe and everyone must accept this standard." Well I for one don't. I'm pretty sure the pro-synthesis thread that is like 40 pages doesn't accept it either.

Also convenient that you chose something super grounded like mass accelerator weapons as your comparison point. I'm thinking more along the lines of various Biotic powers (Charge for example or singularity), the reaper liquification and absorbtion of minds, indoctrination in general, and various other things I listed in the first post. Synthesis might be a step beyond that I agree. It might even be a dealbreaker for some people. But it isn't for me because I don't have the same standards as you do for "suspension of disbelief". Lots of people don't.

Gooby pls...

Something less grounded in reality than MA weapons? Reaper indoctrination, one of your examples. All that entails is conditioning the brain through very subtle ultra- and infrasonic sounds.

Reaper liquefication and preservation? Well for starters, I don't believe they're preserving anything in the organic goop. The melting itself is NOT even remotely space magic.

Biotic Charge and Singularity? Well, biotics just means the manipulation of gravity and mass via mass effect fields. Charge reduces one's own mass and allows for faster movement, increasing mass back to standard upon or right before impact. Not too hard to think up a simple explanation like that. Singularity fires a mass effect field to the target destination that decreases the mass of all targets in the radius, thus lifting them into the air. Again, not that difficult, and it stays within the boundaries of the in-game universe.

Please, try harder.

[Taboo]

I already got him.

For the lulz of course.

But the gif that Karimloo posted.

LOL.

[Eluril]

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Complains about strawman, then uses straw man.

I'm not saying it's deuces wild anything goes in the ME universe. I'm saying for it being the end of the game the explanation is equivalent in detail to the explanation given for the control and destroy options. It's still you saying "I have a subjective standard for what is acceptable in a science fiction universe and everyone must accept this standard." Well I for one don't. I'm pretty sure the pro-synthesis thread that is like 40 pages doesn't accept it either.

Also convenient that you chose something super grounded like mass accelerator weapons as your comparison point. I'm thinking more along the lines of various Biotic powers (Charge for example or singularity), the reaper liquification and absorbtion of minds, indoctrination in general, and various other things I listed in the first post. Synthesis might be a step beyond that I agree. It might even be a dealbreaker for some people. But it isn't for me because I don't have the same standards as you do for "suspension of disbelief". Lots of people don't.

Reaper liquefication and preservation? Well for starters, I don't believe they're preserving anything in the organic goop. The melting itself is NOT even remotely space magic.

Please, try harder.

Way to dance. So now we can ignore canon statements within the game to justify our beliefs? Bioware has taken the concept of "organic energy" seriously. In other words, organic life within the concept of the ME universe is not just the biological goop that makes up biological life, but the idea that within that goop is something called "mind" or "essence". You can disagree with this or call it "space magic boogaloo" or whatever but one thing you cannot do is to simply discard the concept because it helps you to evade the argument. The games leave it open as to whether the individual mind is preserved within the collectivist goop (I believe it is an indoctrinated mind and therefore not remotely the moral equivalent of preserving a true individual life, but that is speculation on the nature of the preservation. I cannot and do not ignore the canon fact that SOME form of organic mind is preserved within the Reaper goop.)

[KingZayd]

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Complains about strawman, then uses straw man.

I'm not saying it's deuces wild anything goes in the ME universe. I'm saying for it being the end of the game the explanation is equivalent in detail to the explanation given for the control and destroy options. It's still you saying "I have a subjective standard for what is acceptable in a science fiction universe and everyone must accept this standard." Well I for one don't. I'm pretty sure the pro-synthesis thread that is like 40 pages doesn't accept it either.

Also convenient that you chose something super grounded like mass accelerator weapons as your comparison point. I'm thinking more along the lines of various Biotic powers (Charge for example or singularity), the reaper liquification and absorbtion of minds, indoctrination in general, and various other things I listed in the first post. Synthesis might be a step beyond that I agree. It might even be a dealbreaker for some people. But it isn't for me because I don't have the same standards as you do for "suspension of disbelief". Lots of people don't.

Reaper liquefication and preservation? Well for starters, I don't believe they're preserving anything in the organic goop. The melting itself is NOT even remotely space magic.

Please, try harder.

Way to dance. So now we can ignore canon statements within the game to justify our beliefs? Bioware has taken the concept of "organic energy" seriously. In other words, organic life within the concept of the ME universe is not just the biological goop that makes up biological life, but the idea that within that goop is something called "mind" or "essence". You can disagree with this or call it "space magic boogaloo" or whatever but one thing you cannot do is to simply discard the concept because it helps you to evade the argument. The games leave it open as to whether the individual mind is preserved within the collectivist goop (I believe it is an indoctrinated mind and therefore not remotely the moral equivalent of preserving a true individual life, but that is speculation on the nature of the preservation. I cannot and do not ignore the canon fact that SOME form of organic mind is preserved within the Reaper goop.)

memories stored in genetic goop? genetic memory. that's science fiction. Not space magic.

[Grimwick]

[quote]Blueprotoss wrote...

[quote]Grimwick wrote...

Please do, so far you aven't said anything which makes sense.[/quote]I see that you haven't paid attention in your history classes.[/quote]

I see you didn't pay attention in your science classes either.

[quote][[quote]Grimwick wrote...

Not magic. It is explained by science.[/quote]Disease didn't involve science across the world until the early to mid 20th Century yet there are still a lot people think disease is caused by curses.[/quote]

Irrelevant. This does not prove that science = magic.

EDIT: You've also got your dates wrong. Look up Koch or Pasteur.

[quote][quote]Grimwick wrote...

Not magic.[/quote]How Da Vinci thought of his inventions are still unknown, which means you can't jump the gunon that.[/quote]

So Da Vinci's inspiration was... magic? That's retarded.

[quote][quote]Grimwick wrote...

Not science. [/quote]I doubt that you know this based on how Atlantis hasn't been found.[/quote]

That's because it's a myth. It doesn't exist. Keep trying.

[quote][quote]Grimwick wrote...

? Not magic.[/quote]Mythology alone proves you wrong.[/quote]

How on earth does mythology show that science is magic?

[quote][quote]Grimwick wrote...

Not science.[/quote]Ironically you can just be proven wrong by Scientology.[/quote]

You have no idea what scientology is do you? it's not science. It's a religion. It has nothing to do with the word science.

[quote]P. S.  You're better off by moving on to keep this on topic.
[/quote]

You are the one who decided that science is magic. If you want to keep on topic stop speaking utter gibberish.

Modifié par Grimwick, 11 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[Memnon]

Grimwick wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Ironically you can just be proven wrong by Scientology.

You have no idea what scientology is do you? it's not science. It's a religion. It has nothing to do with the word science.

This seriously made me lol. You want to talk space magic, look up Xenu ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 11 juillet 2012 - 11:33 .

[Grimwick]

Stornskar wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Ironically you can just be proven wrong by Scientology.

You have no idea what scientology is do you? it's not science. It's a religion. It has nothing to do with the word science.

This seriously made me lol. You want to talk space magic, look up Xenu ...

I just don't understand Scientology... It's just so bizarre.

[Eluril]

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Eluril wrote...

Try to keep your talking points straight. Either Synthesis is 1. Not possible no matter what in the Mass Effect universe or 2. It was just introduced too late without codex entries to explain and justify it.

To number 1, I say it is up to the creators to explain it and since they did offer an explanation on par with most of the rest of the universe, I'm fine with it.

and 2. I simply say you're dumb. It was the end of the game so therefore there is no space for them to offer justifications for it.

Also seriously if you can suspend your disbelief over biotics but not over synthesis I say you're a weirdo who is looking to complain and justify your complaints by appealing to your own subjective "fiction standards".

It's #1. And no, they did not offer up an adequate "explanation" for Synthesis. Saying otherwise makes you either stupid or deluded, take your pick.

Compare the in-game explanation for something like... mass accelerator weapons to Synthesis. The former has an explanation that is, while not completely applicable to real life, follows the in-universe restrictions. The latter is a bunch of metaphysical crap thrown at Shepard's face by a holographic 8 year old. Even calling it an "explanation" is pushing the definition of the word.

Also, congratulations on the grossly inaccurate assumption you made in your last point. Going by your "It's fiction, you can't complain about it" logic, it should be OK if Harry from Harry Potter brandished a Phaser and just shot Voldemort.

Complains about strawman, then uses straw man.

I'm not saying it's deuces wild anything goes in the ME universe. I'm saying for it being the end of the game the explanation is equivalent in detail to the explanation given for the control and destroy options. It's still you saying "I have a subjective standard for what is acceptable in a science fiction universe and everyone must accept this standard." Well I for one don't. I'm pretty sure the pro-synthesis thread that is like 40 pages doesn't accept it either.

Also convenient that you chose something super grounded like mass accelerator weapons as your comparison point. I'm thinking more along the lines of various Biotic powers (Charge for example or singularity), the reaper liquification and absorbtion of minds, indoctrination in general, and various other things I listed in the first post. Synthesis might be a step beyond that I agree. It might even be a dealbreaker for some people. But it isn't for me because I don't have the same standards as you do for "suspension of disbelief". Lots of people don't.

Reaper liquefication and preservation? Well for starters, I don't believe they're preserving anything in the organic goop. The melting itself is NOT even remotely space magic.

Please, try harder.

Way to dance. So now we can ignore canon statements within the game to justify our beliefs? Bioware has taken the concept of "organic energy" seriously. In other words, organic life within the concept of the ME universe is not just the biological goop that makes up biological life, but the idea that within that goop is something called "mind" or "essence". You can disagree with this or call it "space magic boogaloo" or whatever but one thing you cannot do is to simply discard the concept because it helps you to evade the argument. The games leave it open as to whether the individual mind is preserved within the collectivist goop (I believe it is an indoctrinated mind and therefore not remotely the moral equivalent of preserving a true individual life, but that is speculation on the nature of the preservation. I cannot and do not ignore the canon fact that SOME form of organic mind is preserved within the Reaper goop.)

I see that no one has a substantive reply to this one. If you accept that the Reapers can liquidate organics and absorb their mind/energy/essence in any form to combine it with synthetic parts then you agree that synthesis is at least feasible within the Mass Effect universe. As the Reapers ability to liquidate and absorb minds/energy/essence is a core part of the canon of the Reapers as given in the ME universe, therefore synthesis is a possibility and a defensible idea within the ME universe.

[Archereon]

Archereon wrote...

You know, when I first saw Blueprotoss' posts, I thought "what a terrible troll", but my god, even after 24 pages, people keep replying to him, and he's yet to "break character", so to speak.

That is what you call an epic troll.


But seriously, for me, the real problem with Synthesis is that it's a completely different animal from the pseudoscience and "space magic" we've seen in Mass Effect up to this point. The statements of the long forgotten henchman of the villain of Mass Effect 1 and a few minor conversations with EDI is not enough foreshadowing to make synthesis seem plausible in this universe. None of the endings have enough foreshadowing, but Synthesis is by far the worst in this regard.

No amount of build up to that ending could have saved the game's internal consistency, and it also happens to be extremely outlandish by science fiction standards; There are very few science fiction stories where Synthesis wouldn't be just as much of a WTF moment as it is here.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Incorrect. As many many synthesis supporters have claimed husk synthesis =/= synthesis.

In fact, there is an explanation as to how husk synthesis occurs and it is perfectly valid within the realms of the MEverse..

Over time, your organs turn to cybernetics, because of the giant spike going through your guts. That spike actually puts nanites in your blood, somehow, accelerated by adrenaline. It's not like that giant spike could drain a significant amount of blood out of you or anything!

Right, that flies much better in the MEverse than synthesis.

Ownedbacon wrote...

Husks are synthetic-organic "zombies" created from the bodies of organic beings. When a human is captured, they are placed on impaling devices, huge spikes that Alliance marines have nicknamed "dragon's teeth". Over time the body's organs, skin and water content are converted into cybernetic materials; blood is changed to a sickly green fluid, and the body generates an electrical charge.

If that which I bolded isn't magic then I don't know what is!

Page'd!

[Archereon]

Okay, I'm going to join this argument by saying this: It's not whether or not Synthesis is space magic that's important, it's whether Synthesis makes any sense in the context of the Mass Effect universe as we know it. Assuming that because Space Magic A exists, Space Magic B (Synthesis) must be plausible is a completely false dichotomy, and one which falls apart in the face of the concept of Internal consistency, since it mostly depends on semantics.

[Sulligy]

xsdob wrote...

How can something go faster than light when light has next to no mass and can only go as fast as light?

 Because when you run a negative current through eezo, it decreases the mass around it. This "Mass Effect" can lower mass to an almost impossibly low level, that is so close to zero mass, that anything that is in the field can go faster than light.

Modifié par x7he pr0digyx, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .

[Sulligy]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Reorte wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...
In a universe based entirely on constantly violating the most fundamental law of physics, anything is consistent with the rules. 

OK then, explain how it can be achieved using the violations of the laws of physics that the mass effect is known to have.

Element Zero and anything based on Mass Relay tech.

The main component of mass relay tech is eezo.

[comrade gando]

what are you crazy? every single one of those are explained in gory detail in the codex. meanwhile, the crucible doesn't get jack diddly and is completely unexplained, and frankly 100% space magic.

[Seryl]

Eluril wrote...

I see that no one has a substantive reply to this one. If you accept that the Reapers can liquidate organics and absorb their mind/energy/essence in any form to combine it with synthetic parts then you agree that synthesis is at least feasible within the Mass Effect universe. As the Reapers ability to liquidate and absorb minds/energy/essence is a core part of the canon of the Reapers as given in the ME universe, therefore synthesis is a possibility and a defensible idea within the ME universe.

...
...
... wow. Really? If somebody can't prove you wrong, beyond all shadow of a doubt, than you're right by default? Who taught you logic? Glenn Beck?

The only source for "the Reapers absorb their mind/energy/essence" is the StarChild. To put it mildly, it's not very reliable. This can be interpreted that the organic "paste" was used to provide organic matter for some function that the Reapers need in their design. Whether the kid believes he's saving the individual civilizations in "Reaper form" is not relevant since we never see any proof of if. Husk provide a good example of in game things that require both artificial and organic pieces to survive.

Synthesis breaks the rules of Mass Effect because there is no example of it, no discussion of it, and it appears like a bomb in the last five minutes of the story. Every piece of tech that has been shown in ME until that point had a plausible description of how it works and how it uses the mass effect generated by element zero. That is, certain rules were setup at the beginning of the series, and have been followed by almost everything that has been shown.

For example, consider the Prothean cipher. It's the sum of knowledge of the Prothean race, sort of like a culture's teachings. The West might label it as "Pop Culture". It was transfered to Shiala by the Thorian, who absorbed it by a Prothean it caught/melded with when the Prothean's were still in charge. Shepard got it by Asari telepathy. This sounds like Space Magic, but it actually isn't. Why? Because by this point, somebody (probably Liara) has explained that Asari can "sync" their nervous systems with another creature's, thus allowing them to communicate, procreate, bond, etc. Namely, there is a REASON why this works that is explained and doesn't stretch the boundaries of disbelief.

Synthesis doesn't do this. First, the kid talks about how a new DNA will be created from both synthetic and organic. Well, we know how DNA works. Since it wasn't mentioned in the universe until now, we have to use the real world knowledge that we have; so how is this even possible? A machine now has DNA? How will Shepard's energy combine with a beam instead of instantly destroying him? How will that new "matrix" be spread by a beam? Synthesis' beam makes no sense since how can a beam of light rewrite my DNA? How would I even SURVIVE my DNA being rewritten? How would a HUMAN's "energy and essence" successfully combine with an Asari's? See the problem? There is no in game foundation for how this functions, so the reader starts asking questions that can't be answered. Because of that, it's not believable. Hence, Space Magic.

An actual writer could explain this better than I can, but you can NOT create new rules at the end of a story. It shatters "Suspension of Disbelief". It jars the reader badly and makes the story seem badly written since, once that happens once, there's no longer any internal consistency. Somebody referred to it as "Narrative Conhesion". Things in a story need to make sense and follow established rules. These rules get set down at the beginning of the story, never the ending.

[noobcannon]

Eluril wrote...

If synthesis can be dismissed as "space magic" and not plausible in the ME universe then the following can also be labeled "Space magic"

Reaper indoctrination - How does that work?
Reaper liquification and mind absorbtion - How does that work?
Liara's gift and asari psionic abilities - How does that work?
The Citadel and the mass relays - How does that work?
Guns that shoot shaved pieces of metal  - How does that work?
Biotics - How does that work?
Shepard absorbing the "collective conscious" of the Protheans via the Thorian - How does that work?
The Prothean beacons - How does that work?

The Guardian of Forever in Star Trek - How does that work?
The Monoliths in 2001: a Space Odyssey - How does that work?
The Black Oil in Prometheus - How does that work?

The truth is science fiction only needs to be plausible to a point. I don't want people on a space ship poring over navigation charts, calculating geometry for hours or days on end. I want a setting and story that intrigues me, that gets me to think about man's relationship to technology and the future.

Mass Effect more than fulfilled this and Synthesis seems to me just as plausible an effect of the advanced technology of the Crucible as most if not all of the elements listed above.

the problem with your comparsion is that all of those have been established as "plausible" in the mass effect universe since very early on. biotics, indoctrination, mass effect fields, etc.  have been around since the beginning and bioware spent alot of time to make these things feel real in their story.

the problem with something like synthesis is that it was delivered to us at the very end of the trilogy. i am by no means a writer, and even i know you aren't supposed to do this. some would refer to this as "pulling it out of their ass"

i think a good analogy would be star wars. the force is maybe the most important story element in the star wars movies. we don't question how silly it is because it has been established as part of the story since the beginning. now if the force had been introduced right when darth vader dies in return of the jedi, it would be almost as pathetic.

[noobcannon]

Seryl wrote...

Eluril wrote...

I see that no one has a substantive reply to this one. If you accept that the Reapers can liquidate organics and absorb their mind/energy/essence in any form to combine it with synthetic parts then you agree that synthesis is at least feasible within the Mass Effect universe. As the Reapers ability to liquidate and absorb minds/energy/essence is a core part of the canon of the Reapers as given in the ME universe, therefore synthesis is a possibility and a defensible idea within the ME universe.

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... wow. Really? If somebody can't prove you wrong, beyond all shadow of a doubt, than you're right by default? Who taught you logic? Glenn Beck?

The only source for "the Reapers absorb their mind/energy/essence" is the StarChild. To put it mildly, it's not very reliable. This can be interpreted that the organic "paste" was used to provide organic matter for some function that the Reapers need in their design. Whether the kid believes he's saving the individual civilizations in "Reaper form" is not relevant since we never see any proof of if. Husk provide a good example of in game things that require both artificial and organic pieces to survive.

Synthesis breaks the rules of Mass Effect because there is no example of it, no discussion of it, and it appears like a bomb in the last five minutes of the story. Every piece of tech that has been shown in ME until that point had a plausible description of how it works and how it uses the mass effect generated by element zero. That is, certain rules were setup at the beginning of the series, and have been followed by almost everything that has been shown.

For example, consider the Prothean cipher. It's the sum of knowledge of the Prothean race, sort of like a culture's teachings. The West might label it as "Pop Culture". It was transfered to Shiala by the Thorian, who absorbed it by a Prothean it caught/melded with when the Prothean's were still in charge. Shepard got it by Asari telepathy. This sounds like Space Magic, but it actually isn't. Why? Because by this point, somebody (probably Liara) has explained that Asari can "sync" their nervous systems with another creature's, thus allowing them to communicate, procreate, bond, etc. Namely, there is a REASON why this works that is explained and doesn't stretch the boundaries of disbelief.

Synthesis doesn't do this. First, the kid talks about how a new DNA will be created from both synthetic and organic. Well, we know how DNA works. Since it wasn't mentioned in the universe until now, we have to use the real world knowledge that we have; so how is this even possible? A machine now has DNA? How will Shepard's energy combine with a beam instead of instantly destroying him? How will that new "matrix" be spread by a beam? Synthesis' beam makes no sense since how can a beam of light rewrite my DNA? How would I even SURVIVE my DNA being rewritten? How would a HUMAN's "energy and essence" successfully combine with an Asari's? See the problem? There is no in game foundation for how this functions, so the reader starts asking questions that can't be answered. Because of that, it's not believable. Hence, Space Magic.

An actual writer could explain this better than I can, but you can NOT create new rules at the end of a story. It shatters "Suspension of Disbelief". It jars the reader badly and makes the story seem badly written since, once that happens once, there's no longer any internal consistency. Somebody referred to it as "Narrative Conhesion". Things in a story need to make sense and follow established rules. These rules get set down at the beginning of the story, never the ending.

read your post after i wrote mine. couldnt have said it better