281 réponses à ce sujet

[BomimoDK]

anarex wrote...

This whole thread is disturbing. I read this article once on the escapist from a higher up at Bethsda that talked about the importance of making games as easy as possible. Here, found it

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=22313

Assuming this poster is not a troll, and I don't think he is, its proof the author's idea had some merit. More and more people like this poster are playing games now, and not just casual games. Whats more, they demand to be treated as thou they have been playing games all their life. I am not ok with this.

Look at this quote from Bethsda, "Your easiest setting should basically be push button, win game. You will think that it can't be made easier, that there are no wall missions. You will be wrong. Make it easier.Give them an out."

The problem is that you can't program two different games. The easiest setting is still using the same basic game mechanics.  Dumbing down games this far makes even the highest difficulty setting trivial for experienced players.

Take Fallout 3 for example, since that was a Bethsda game. Even on Very Hard, Fallout 3 is a cake walk after about the 5 hour mark. Do you remember the final boss in Fallout 3? Oh wait, there was no final boss. You just walk along side this massive nuke throwing laser shooting ultimate engine of doom as he does all the work for you. Gaxe, is why there was no final boss in Fallout 3. Designers are not going to make one game with a boss on very hard and no boss on very easy. It just won't ever happen.

Dragon Age was in development for I think five years. Its Bioware's first attempt to create its own fantasy world and rule set. In less than a month people have completely figured out how to build the best characters and run through the game without any real resistance. The worst part being that the best builds don't even require any serious micro management to absolutely just tear through content. Thats sad. I expected there to be no best build, only the best build for this situation. I never imagined there would be a simple method to run nightmare without worry.

But, this thread is why. You just can't make games hard anymore. People get very upset. Its not like experienced players did not go through these problems. We just had them happen at a much younger age. I got seriously stuck in RPGs before when I was a kid all the time. I messed up characters, didn't understand party balance, and didn't know how to spot powerful and useless abilities  at glance. It just takes time. These skills absoultely transfer over from game to game.

Dragon age introduced something that is relatively new for people that have never played MMORPGS, crowd control and aggro management. I promise you, if stick with it you will "get" these concepts and be able to use them in tons of games. It just takes time and experience like everything else.

If developers cater to people who just decided to try out real games its only going to make it so experienced gamers have nothing to play. I have no idea why new gamers aren't required to go through the same basic training we all had to deal with.

a resounding AMEN!!!
AAA+ post mate.

[whtnyte-raernst]

Until the OP registers his game, we have no proof that they even OWN the game, let alone agree with the TOS.



Something that has been suggested, and ignored quite a few times over the last 12 hours to this person.

[RampantBeaver]

sirrealist8 wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...
Yeah its sucks, this game centers around pulling, kiting and mages. People claiming the game is easy only found it so because they capitalized on those three elements.

Such a sweeping generalization, and utterly untrue.

I've gone into it time and time again in countless other posts. I knew by summarising someone would shoot me down for an unfactual comment. In fact i could comment that what you've said is a gross generalisation as you've failed to supply a constructive rebuttal.

Perhaps it was wrong of me to put "...this game centers around..." I simply mean the combat is a lot harder without mages and pulling. Its unfair to fault BW because kiting is possible though, they can hardly force players to not run away from an encounter and it is often only utilized in desperate situations.

I do feel strongly however that pulling should, in all believability, not be possible and most agree mages dominate
the scene.
Let me quote another post of mine that explains what i mean slightly:

RampantBeaver wrote...
Luring or Pulling, as I'm used to it being called, is a big part of mmo's. It has also become a big part of Bioware's RPG's. I would be surprised if anyone playing DA:O at no point ever used pulling. It's an exploit that will make certain fights a hell of a lot easier. An extreme case is pulling Ser Cauthrien away into one of the adjacent rooms when you first meet her and then after kiting around her until she is dead, you return to finish off the rest of the guards. It's human nature to make challenging situations easier, so if we are presented with pulling as a solution its going to be capitalized.

It actually really makes me angry at Bioware. They spend all this time on the rest of the game making something truly epic and then fall flat making a believable combat system/AI.

Its backwards thinking! How the game plays out as it is your characters would struggle to win even in a fair fight in most encounters; the times I've watched Alistair get his organs handed to him by a random thug in a back alley. This to me breaks the emersion. I've stopped thinking of me and my companions as hero's, instead I find it more believable that my character managed to stumble across Bernard's Watch and has the unrelenting ability to go back in time, every time he fails, to try again. Making him in fact just a commoner who, through reloading, fluked his way to eventually killing an Archdaemon. Not the epic tale I was hoping for. It makes me feel that BW intended for us to abuse pulling, kiting and our mages and then respectively made the mobs better fighters than you to even things out.

Forward thinking would be removing these capabilities and in fact making your characters more adept. Make them able to take on 3 guys at once. Make it impossible for enemies to come at us one at a time and we get to see the prowess of our warriors cutting down waves of enemies. Not milk cone of cold because moving targets are the bane of our characters, having said that they do sometimes even struggle to hit immobile objects!

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:29 .

[anarex]

No, there are some pretty good indications that he is not a troll. He is just a causal gamer. If he were a troll I doubt he would be talking about wanting to just see the story play out. This is common among causal gamers. Its this new bread of gamer that treats games like interactive movies.

When casual gamers are confronted with challenges that prevent them from getting the rest of the story they rage on forums and complaint about difficulty. Bioware didn't almost immedialtey release a patch making the game easier because of trolls.

We need to understand that Gaxe is a real person and figure out why he feels this way, why he is unwilling to accept that he screwed up and has to re roll. If we are going to preserve our ability to enjoy games in the future, we need to convince people like Gaxe that getting stuck at a wall is a part of gaming. People should not insult him, I am sure it happened to all of you at one point when you were a kid. But, we did not run to a forum and complain that Final Fantasy was just too hard. You figure out how to overcome the problem. The truth is developers are starting to cater to Gaxe way more than they are to the rest of us. If people like Gaxe don't change their attitude about gaming, all of us are going to suffer.

Modifié par anarex, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[Papahet31]

The thing I find odd about this thread is it is strangely similar to a post I read about 1-2 weeks ago. That poster also said they where having a hard time with a certain fight on easy mode. They also explained how for some unknown reason they were way out of whack on either their spec or they also didn't have a mage with them. They also claimed to not be a gamer and then, despite the page and pages of valid advice, they continued to whine about how hard it was and then said they had to go to work in 2 hours.



I'm not paying any more attention to this thread

[gingerbill]

RampantBeaver wrote...

Gaxe wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...

Yeah its sucks, this game centers around pulling, kiting and mages. People claiming the game is easy only found it so because they capitalized on those three elements.

Uggh so I have to play a certain way? I thought I was doing good my way.

Kiting is rare. Its used in situations like your facing. I would find it hard to believe if someone told me they'd never used pulling however.

nonsense. i doubt many people have to kite . I certainly never have and never will .  I assume people struggling don't pause the game and dont use simple tactics like making sure everyone attacks the same target.

I must admit thought the game is alot harder if you don't have a healer . A healer isnt needed but one is needed if you want to play through smoothly without reloads.

[gingerbill]

anarex wrote...

This whole thread is disturbing. I read this article once on the escapist from a higher up at Bethsda that talked about the importance of making games as easy as possible. Here, found it

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=22313

Assuming this poster is not a troll, and I don't think he is, its proof the author's idea had some merit. More and more people like this poster are playing games now, and not just casual games. Whats more, they demand to be treated as thou they have been playing games all their life. I am not ok with this.

Look at this quote from Bethsda, "Your easiest setting should basically be push button, win game. You will think that it can't be made easier, that there are no wall missions. You will be wrong. Make it easier.Give them an out."

The problem is that you can't program two different games. The easiest setting is still using the same basic game mechanics.  Dumbing down games this far makes even the highest difficulty setting trivial for experienced players.

Take Fallout 3 for example, since that was a Bethsda game. Even on Very Hard, Fallout 3 is a cake walk after about the 5 hour mark. Do you remember the final boss in Fallout 3? Oh wait, there was no final boss. You just walk along side this massive nuke throwing laser shooting ultimate engine of doom as he does all the work for you. Gaxe is why there was no final boss in Fallout 3. Designers are not going to make one game with a boss on very hard and no boss on very easy. It just won't ever happen.

Dragon Age was in development for I think five years. Its Bioware's first attempt to create its own fantasy world and rule set. In less than a month people have completely figured out how to build the best characters and run through the game without any real resistance. The worst part being that the best builds don't even require any serious micro management to absolutely just tear through content. Thats sad. I expected there to be no best build, only the best build for this situation. I never imagined there would be a simple method to run nightmare without worry.

But, this thread is why. You just can't make games hard anymore. People get very upset. Its not like experienced players did not go through these problems. We just had them happen at a much younger age. I got seriously stuck in RPGs before when I was a kid all the time. I messed up characters, didn't understand party balance, and didn't know how to spot powerful and useless abilities at a glance. It just takes time. These skills absoultely transfer over from game to game.

Dragon age introduced something that is relatively new for people that have never played MMORPGS, crowd control and aggro management. I promise you, if stick with it you will "get" these concepts and be able to use them in tons of games. It just takes time and experience like everything else.

If developers cater to people who just decided to try out real games its only going to make it so experienced gamers have nothing to play. I have no idea why new gamers aren't required to go through the same basic training we all had to deal with.

good post . I think its important not to exclude new players though , but i agree a game shouldnt be designed around terrible players with no brains , there's plenty of games for those players.

Even my dad enjoy's DA and can manage it on easy , and he can barely move a mouse . I think the problem is that players like the OP will try the same thing over and over and wonder why they keep failing , they dont think to try something diffrent .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sorry Burgle, I've just realised you wasn't the person I was really directing that ToS quote at, it was one of the others, but seriously dude, if he is bugging you there is no need to keep insulting him, just 'walk away' from the topic, like I am going to after seeing his other posts.



"Shades on a road" I can't think of any random encounters off top of my head and as I previously stated unless he seriously screwed up on the auto-save situation, there will be saves for him to go back to that shouldn't mean going all the way back to the beginning/re-rolling. At the most if he has got auto-saves and hasn't gone far out of Lothering he should have an auto-save from when he was leaving Lothering.

[RampantBeaver]

gingerbill wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...

Gaxe wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...

Yeah its sucks, this game centers around pulling, kiting and mages. People claiming the game is easy only found it so because they capitalized on those three elements.

Uggh so I have to play a certain way? I thought I was doing good my way.

Kiting is rare. Its used in situations like your facing. I would find it hard to believe if someone told me they'd never used pulling however.

nonsense. i doubt many people have to kite . I certainly never have and never will .  I assume people struggling don't pause the game and dont use simple tactics like making sure everyone attacks the same target.

I must admit thought the game is alot harder if you don't have a healer . A healer isnt needed but one is needed if you want to play through smoothly without reloads.

I quite clearly said kiting is rare. Generally I'm talking about the people who play through on nightmare that use kiting. I have used it once on Ser Cauthrien just to see if it was possible. A common theme of those that post here saying the game is too easy on hard/nightmare is them explaining they used kiting.

It was wrong of me to say the game 'centers around' kiting and again i apologise, but the game does center around mages and countless people admit to pulling on these here forums.

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Tirigon]

If it´s really only one fight that is giving trouble, use godmode, finish this fight, turn off godmode and continue playing.

If all fights give you trouble, you are either playing on a too hard difficulty (not the case here) or you have totally screwed up your character build. In that case, either start a new character (I did this myself; DAO is my first party-based game and my first character, a dual-wield rogue, sucked like hell, so I started a mage and finished the game with lots of fun; Now, more experienced, I play on hard or nightmare all the time) or download the Respec mod to make a new build on the same character.

[gingerbill]

RampantBeaver wrote...

I quite clearly said kiting is rare. Generally I'm talking about the people who play through on nightmare that use kiting. I have used it once on Ser Cauthrien just to see if it was possible. A common theme of those that post here saying the game is too easy on hard/nightmare is them explaining they used kiting.

It was wrong of me to say the game 'centers around' kiting and again i apologise, but the game does center around mages and countless people admit to pulling on these here forums.

fair enough , i would definetly agree with your conclusion on this post . I would agree the game is definetly not easy if you avoid cheesy tactics and avoid the OP spells like force field and mass AOE's . I doubt anyone would argue that mages dominate the game and i could understand people with no experience of these type of games could end up with a party that would struggle . But it doesnt take much brains to work out you might need a healer .

[SheffSteel]

anarex wrote...

No, there are some pretty good indications that he is not a troll. He is just a causal gamer.....

... a casual gamer who deleted his auto-saves?
Or a casual gamer who's going to post later on and say "duh, I never realised that I could go back to an auto save, thanks guys" ?

[booke63]

Davvbuzz wrote...

If you really find it impossible to pass this point, you can always follow the steps shown here:

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Console

Whilst in game access it using the tilde key and type in : runscript killallhostiles

You will recieve all XP, the mobs will drop items and story/quest triggers will work as normal.

Problem solved.

I think this is a good plan.

Alternately you could download a mod that gives you soome superpowered weapons/armor.  My friend has done that and also has a walk through.  He's not interested in working out the combat mechanics, or tactics either by trial and error or by reading info on the net.  He just wants to play and enjoy the game/story.  He plays straight until he get whooped and then he'll use the god items he's installed.  By now he's better at the game and uses mainly a necklass of some godly sort and not the whole mod kit.

This works great for him.  Never mind that you haven't had to use a walk through or a modded items of the console as suggested above in other games.  Remember:

1. you have no time
2. want to play warriors (harder without mages)
3. are really frustrated and (will continue to be, quite likely)
4. are not an experienced gamer

So why stand on some missplaced pride and refuse to do what you need to do to enjoy the game?  What a shame that would be to miss out on this game just because you've not had to take similar measures to enjoy other games.  Just do what you have to do, so you can play!  It's fun! 

Thanks

[anarex]

Actually, the truth is kiting would make the game harder. I am sure you could agro kite through some encounters but its totally unnecessary. It has nothing to do with what makes nightmare trivial once you understand the game mechanics. Its just about having the right build, the right gear, and enough knowledge to know what to do in a few situations.

The core problem with the difficulty is that are several abilities and spells that are just amazing compared to the rest. Its not one or two, its probably closer to 10. Rebalancing just isn't an option. If you know what they are and pick them up early, its hard to get beaten.

On top of that, the stat system is a mess. They tried to make it so abilities make more logical sense but lots of stats just do too much. Best example is dex. Dex increases both offense and defense at the same time. Thats too much. For people using piercing weapons, damage to. If you are using bows, it also increases your rate of fire. Why? Why make a stat that is basically make everything better.

Same deal with magic. Spellpower makes sense but since it also increases the mana you get from potions it just further makes it pointless to invest in willpower. Willpower should have increased the effectiveness of potions, not magic. This seems so obvious.

Conversely, stats like willpower and constitution just don't do enough. They would be fine as they are if you didn't automatically gain stamina and hps every level. Or if health potions and mana potions were not so effective and common place. Or if stamina did not regenerate or if abilities costed much more stamina.

Modifié par anarex, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:56 .

[Gaxe]

Guys I understand what you're saying about people who play games a lot and people who don't.

Easy Mode = Dude who has never played computer games
Normal Mode = People who have played computer games
Hard Mode = People who accel at computer games
Nightmare Mode = Well you can guess this one.

Ugggghhhhhh, it sucks that the game has brought me to post on the forums like this.  Why can't easy just be what it claims to be.  Let normal be what you guys want as gamers. Let me have my easy mode with my limited time? Like someone else said in this thread the game is like an interactive movie. I really enjoy that.

I deleted my save games, I don't know why. I thought i didn't need them anymore. I had no idea I'd fight a battle that was so impossible I'd have to start over.

Modifié par Gaxe, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Burglekut]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Sorry Burgle, I've just realised you wasn't the person I was really directing that ToS quote at, it was one of the others, but seriously dude, if he is bugging you there is no need to keep insulting him, just 'walk away' from the topic, like I am going to after seeing his other posts..

It's not bugging me at all, I'm getting quite a few laughs while I'm at work. 

[Gaxe]

anarex wrote...

Actually, the truth is kiting would make the game harder. I am sure you could agro kite through some encounters but its totally unnecessary. It has nothing to do with what makes nightmare trivial once you understand the game mechanics. Its just about having the right build, the right gear, and enough knowledge to know what to do in a few situations.

The core problem with the difficulty is that are several abilities and spells that are just amazing compared to the rest. Its not one or two, its probably closer to 10. Rebalancing just isn't an option. If you know what they are and pick them up early, its hard to get beaten.

On top of that, the stat system is a mess. They tried to make it so abilities make more logical sense but lots of stats just do too much. Best example is dex. Dex increases both offense and defense at the same time. Thats too much. For people using piercing weapons, damage to. If you are using bows, it also increases your rate of fire. Why? Why make a stat that is basically make everything better.

Same deal with magic. Spellpower makes sense but since it also increases the mana you get from potions it just further makes it pointless to invest in willpower. Willpower should have increased the effectiveness of potions, not magic. This seems so obvious.

Conversely, stats like willpower and constitution just don't do enough. They would be fine as they are if you didn't automatically gain stamina and hps every level. Or if health potions and mana potions were not so effective and common place. Or if stamina did not regenerate or abilities cost much more stamina.

I have dex maxxed out and these shades are annihilating me.  I can't believe they are still hitting me. I finally thought I understood this game, but i guess i don't.

[Burglekut]

Gaxe wrote...

Guys I understand what you're saying about people who play games a lot and people who don't.

Easy Mode = Dude who has never played computer games
Normal Mode = People who have played computer games
Hard Mode = People who accel at computer games
Nightmare Mode = Well you can guess this one.

Ugggghhhhhh, it sucks that the game has brought me to post on the forums like this.  Why can't easy just be what it claims to be.  Let normal be what you guys want as gamers. Let me have my easy mode with my limited time? Like someone else said in this thread the game is like an interactive movie. I really enjoy that.

I deleted my save games, I don't know why. I thought i didn't need them anymore. I had no idea I'd fight a battle that was so impossible I'd have to start over.

It is easy, you're just bad.

Modifié par Burglekut, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .

[Coastwatcher]

anarex wrote...

No, there are some pretty good indications that he is not a troll. He is just a causal gamer. If he were a troll I doubt he would be talking about wanting to just see the story play out. This is common among causal gamers. Its this new bread of gamer that treats games like interactive movies. 

I can attest to this, since I'm one. Not on DAO, since I'm an rpg player and I've played Bioware games before, but for me it's the Grand Theft Auto series. I can almost guarantee that I'll get frustrated at some mission midway through the game that I can't complete (it usually involves any flying), that I'll go crazy like the OP. To me, it's like, " I just want to get to the end of the main plot, please !! Why do I have to do this mission ? Isn't there any form of level skip ? ", so on and on. I understand what the OP is going through.

[Racca12]

Gaxe wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...

mmmbeerz wrote...

I feel cheap suggesting this but it sounds like this is your only option.

A random encounter, with no mages or heals, and already on easy... I'd say gaxe should be doing anything possible to survive.

Yeah your right and you stress in my opinion the main fault with this game. With no mages in your party and without using pulling or kiting, this game is far too hard even on easy.

Your characters should be champions of their trade and shouldn't be crippled when left without a mage.

Gaxe is struggling to hit a target and i feel his frustration. I've seen Alistair miss a frozen target 3 times in a row. I've even seen my character miss a barricade.

I'm glad someone else out there feels my frustration.  I can't believe how many times I miss. I thought being a maxxed out dex warrior would gurantee that I hit ANYONE but that is not true.  I miss like 90% of the time against these shades and even with my super high maxxed out dex they still hit me like i'm this big easy slow target.

I've just beaten the game on Normal, and I did it without a healer in my group, and without kiting enemies. I never kited an enemy, but what I did have to do is adjust my tactics from battle to battle. You have to use abilities like Crowd Control and stuns like your life depended on them, because they do. 

I'm a firm believer that any battle in this game can be overcome by any group make up. If your groups don't have good CC, someone use traps. You have to expand your gaming mind to overcome some of these battles. And that's why I love it. 

[vicariouscheese]

well now youve learned never to delete saves

even on easy, when you play an rpg for the first time theres a good chance there will be something difficult down the road. my first playthrough on normal (with 3 mages + tank no less [easiest party in case you dont know, two of the mages could heal as well]) was actually more difficult than my rogue + rogue + tank + dedicated healer on nightmare. once i knew most of the ins and outs of the game and had a plan for each of my characters, only the a few fights caused some reloads

[Creature 1]

Gaxe wrote...
I deleted my save games, I don't know why. I thought i didn't need them anymore. I had no idea I'd fight a battle that was so impossible I'd have to start over.

This, plus the fact that you haven't acknowledged my saying three times that the easy solution to this is to cheat your way out and then fix the underlying problems, makes me inclined to think you're just trolling.  Aren't you supposed to be at work? 

I save obsessively.  Picked up a new helmet--save game.  Swapped Alistair's weapon--save game.  Walked down a hall--save game.  Bugs happen, it's never safe to not have old saves. 

[Coastwatcher]

Even on Easy, the Ogre fight when you light the beacon didn't take me an hour to do. Is it the AI settings for your party ? I experimented once and tried the Ogre battle with Alistair set to Defensive, the NPC warrior on Defensive, the NPC mage or archer on Passive, and that was my only wipe on Easy mode, since the Ogre was able to kill my party one by one .

[anarex]

post the level / stats / skills / talents / and weapons of the characters

I bet there is way through the encounter and that you are just doing something small that is causing you a huge problem.  I remember one poster like this that didn't know his party had like 10 injuries.  

Modifié par anarex, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Gaxe wrote...

Guys I understand what you're saying about people who play games a lot and people who don't.

Easy Mode = Dude who has never played computer games
Normal Mode = People who have played computer games
Hard Mode = People who accel at computer games
Nightmare Mode = Well you can guess this one.

Ugggghhhhhh, it sucks that the game has brought me to post on the forums like this.  Why can't easy just be what it claims to be.  Let normal be what you guys want as gamers. Let me have my easy mode with my limited time? Like someone else said in this thread the game is like an interactive movie. I really enjoy that.

I deleted my save games, I don't know why. I thought i didn't need them anymore. I had no idea I'd fight a battle that was so impossible I'd have to start over.

I know this might be 'spoiler'ish but do any of these alleged 'Shades' have names and have yellow or orange writing (or in the latter case also a big orange healthbar).

I can't think of any 'random encounters' that has 'Shades' in them.

Also your idea of difficulty is slightly wrong. It isn't just based on games in general but the type of game you are playing.

Someone could be great at RPGs but completely suck at FPS, or vice versa.

Then with RPGs hard to think but there is also the 'style' of RPG that can make a difference. Someone might be good at Final Fantasy style RPGs but wouldn't have a clue what to do with the typical Bioware style RPG.

If you really are in a 'random encounter' then only way out of this situation really is going to be to restart.

As others have said, I would also advise registering your game so that you can post in the spoilers section so people can help you out more if needed because on here we are limited as to what we can tell you.