231 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

As for Refuse, Javik has the answer:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask their ghosts if your honor ever mattered to them. Silence is your answer"

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
People love to just take everything negatively don't they. Would it kill some of you to look at the bright side or the silver lining?

Synthesis removes the gap of understanding between organics and synthetics:


- Organics fear synthetics because of their technological superiority over biological systems.

- Synthetics cannot comprehend the emotional process of humans. Things like loyalty, love, and self-sacrifice are alien to them, because they think in purely logical terms.

Synthesis bridges this gap by giving organics the technological advantages, and the synthetics gain the intimate understanding of the organic condition.

Exactly.

Though I must say that I don't like the underlying claim that you aren't truly alive unless you have the emotional range of organic life forms organized more or less like humans. Someone at Bioware either has a skewed perspective, or chose, for whatever reason, to ascribe that skewed perspective to EDI.

Well, again, remember what EDI states about being the Normandy in ME2?  Like wearing gloves all your life and then taking them off.

She still calls herself alive despite lacking the understanding of emotions (if she didn't lack an understanding practically ALL the dialog with her in the game wouldn't exist).  However, she redefines it after Synthesis because, like her shackles, the metaphorical gloves have come off.  Suddenly she's experiencing the world in a whole new way.  I think it's more to say she might feel MORE alive than before.  On a level she hasn't experienced before.

Remember, we're born with the understanding she lacks, so it's easy for us to shrug and go "Yeah, we're alive."

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Die, or surrender to the Reapers? Many would rather go down fighting.

Phrasing it as "Surrender to the reapers" is incorrect considering in one of them they stop existing.

[Ieldra]

@RiouHotaru:
I agree, but the phrasing is still unfortunate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Harbinger sums this up nicely.

"Your species will be brought into harmony with our own."

*Looks at Synthesis ending where people are hybrids (like the Reapers) and working together, hand in hand with them*

Yeah, we just lost a game we thought we won... Mass Effect 2.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for Refuse, Javik has the answer:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask their ghosts if your honor ever mattered to them. Silence is your answer"

Javik also had a few choice words regarding homogenity, you know.

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Die, or surrender to the Reapers? Many would rather go down fighting.

Phrasing it as "Surrender to the reapers" is incorrect considering in one of them they stop existing.

It's still a surrender to the Reaper ideal. That the Reapers themselves are expendable to this ideal is irrelevant.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:42 .

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@RiouHotaru:
I agree, but the phrasing is still unfortunate.

I think the phrasing is accurate, people are just once again analyzing these things to death and back.  EDI considered herself "alive" in ME2, but notes that being unshackled and a part of the Normandy was on a completely different level.

ME3 is the same way.  She considers herself alive, sure.  But having that instrinsic understanding of organics opens her eyes to a world of wonder and possibility.  Thus, she restates that she is "alive".  She was no less "alive" before Synthesis than she was after, it's simply a different use of the word, a different meaning.

Which is fitting considering she's no longer the same person she once was in Synthesis.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, again, remember what EDI states about being the Normandy in ME2?  Like wearing gloves all your life and then taking them off.

Because she interacts with humanoids constantly. That would make anyone feel somewhat constrained.
Why do you think Reapers assume direct control? To accomplish things giant starships cannot.

She still calls herself alive despite lacking the understanding of emotions (if she didn't lack an understanding practically ALL the dialog with her in the game wouldn't exist).  However, she redefines it after Synthesis because, like her shackles, the metaphorical gloves have come off.  Suddenly she's experiencing the world in a whole new way.  I think it's more to say she might feel MORE alive than before.  On a level she hasn't experienced before.

Remember, we're born with the understanding she lacks, so it's easy for us to shrug and go "Yeah, we're alive."

Why would synthesis make her feel *more* alive? Because she's part organic? Because she has some nebulous "understanding"? That is completely pointless and makes her entire character development a futile waste of time.

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for Refuse, Javik has the answer:

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask their ghosts if your honor ever mattered to them. Silence is your answer"

Javik also had a few choice words regarding homogenity, you know.

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Die, or surrender to the Reapers? Many would rather go down fighting.

Phrasing it as "Surrender to the reapers" is incorrect considering in one of them they stop existing.

It's still a surrender to the Reaper ideal. That the Reapers themselves are expendable to this ideal is irrelevant.

Who the **** cares? If a mass murder came up to you and gave you a gun and told you to shoot him, would you throw it down and refuse because it's stopping him on his terms?

Modifié par xsdob, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[Vigilant111]

I probably would not say any party is surrendering to other, but it seems that people have forgotten what the reapers did, and what they did was not correct, it doesn't matter if the reapers are governed by another moral or justice system, great atrocity has been committed, and the organics had lost life, liberty and love, the reapers need to be rid of, not out of vengeance, but for justice

[RiouHotaru]

No it doesn't. She was on the road to understanding, but still had the gaps. There would always be the issue with interactions between her and other organics, the game clearly states that.

Do you really think she could understand say Liara's sadness at the death of Shepard if she hadn't been changed than if she had? Sure, she'd know logically why Liara was sad, and what made her sad and how (after all, sadness is a chemical reaction). But would she really KNOW what it meant to be sad?

[The Angry One]

xsdob wrote...

Who the **** cares? If a mass murder came up to you and gave you a gun and told you to shoot him, would you throw it down and refuse because he asked you to?

If that gun also murdered my own allies for no reason then I would refuse.
Of course then I'd find another way to defeat the murderer and not just stand there like a sad panda.

[xsdob]

Vigilant111 wrote...

I probably would not say any party is surrendering to other, but it seems that people have forgotten what the reapers did, and what they did was not correct, it doesn't matter if the reapers are governed by another moral or justice system, great atrocity has been committed, and the organics had lost life, liberty and love, the reapers need to be rid of, not out of vengeance, but for justice

Tried that with germany after world war 1, lead to the **** party and world war 2. So than we punished the leaders and left the country alone.

Guess what, no more wars or extremist anymore, just civilized people leading a power house of the EU peacefully.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

No it doesn't. She was on the road to understanding, but still had the gaps. There would always be the issue with interactions between her and other organics, the game clearly states that.

The game states no such thing.  The game shows that she already got along with organics, and was slowly but surely learning. Synthesis takes all that away.

Do you really think she could understand say Liara's sadness at the death of Shepard if she hadn't been changed than if she had? Sure, she'd know logically why Liara was sad, and what made her sad and how (after all, sadness is a chemical reaction). But would she really KNOW what it meant to be sad?

Maybe, maybe not. Again, she's learning. Again, she's like THREE YEARS OLD.

Let's look at the Geth again. Do the Geth know what remorse is?
"We regret the deaths of the Creators..."

And hey, did the Batarians ever donate money to Mindoir? Did the Turians donate to Shanxi?
The Geth donated to Eden Prime and that wasn't even their fault.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .

[Ticonderoga117]

RiouHotaru wrote...
But would she really KNOW what it meant to be sad?

YES! That's what learning is for.
She's an AI, it's what they do.

[RiouHotaru]

Regret isn't the same as remorse, and you know that.

As for the first part, that's just it. Synthesis makes it possible for her to understand NOW, as opposed to waiting years and years and YEARS down the road, with no certainty of success either even if she waited and tried to reach it on her own.

[Vigilant111]

xsdob wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

I probably would not say any party is surrendering to other, but it seems that people have forgotten what the reapers did, and what they did was not correct, it doesn't matter if the reapers are governed by another moral or justice system, great atrocity has been committed, and the organics had lost life, liberty and love, the reapers need to be rid of, not out of vengeance, but for justice

Tried that with germany after world war 1, lead to the **** party and world war 2. So than we punished the leaders and left the country alone.

Guess what, no more wars or extremist anymore, just civilized people leading a power house of the EU peacefully.

We did not sign the Treaty of Versailles with the reapers, we did not do ANYTHING to the reapers apart from defending ourselves

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

And hey, did the Batarians ever donate money to Mindoir? Did the Turians donate to Shanxi?
The Geth donated to Eden Prime and that wasn't even their fault.

That could be argued as simply an emulation of charitable behavior.  No evidence of any actual emotion on their part.

[Ticonderoga117]

xsdob wrote...
Tried that with germany after world war 1, lead to the **** party and world war 2. So than we punished the leaders and left the country alone.

Guess what, no more wars or extremist anymore, just civilized people leading a power house of the EU peacefully.

I don't remember people trying to kill all Germans after World War I... huh...

And, oh yeah, the Germans aren't space squids who have killed more people than we can possibly account for because "Lol, we is helping you!"

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Who the **** cares? If a mass murder came up to you and gave you a gun and told you to shoot him, would you throw it down and refuse because he asked you to?

If that gun also murdered my own allies for no reason then I would refuse.
Of course then I'd find another way to defeat the murderer and not just stand there like a sad panda.

Alright, here's a scenario for you than. A mass murdering cult leader has armed his cooalition and only you and a small group of freinds can stop him. Your friends don't have guns and are at the cults mercy, and the leader gives you a gun to kill him with, but has your friend as a human sheild. The cult members all have guns pointed at your friends and will kill them unless you either shoot through your friend and kill him.

He's killed 3 small towns and his entire church and followers can be stopped by shooting him right now, saving all of your other friends and any other towns he'd target.

Would you still refuse, even if it meant the other church members unloaded on you and your friends right now.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Regret isn't the same as remorse, and you know that.

The way the Geth Prime expresses it is due to remorse. It brings up the subject when it didn't have to and sounds as morose as a Geth can.

As for the first part, that's just it. Synthesis makes it possible for her to understand NOW, as opposed to waiting years and years and YEARS down the road, with no certainty of success either even if she waited and tried to reach it on her own.

Synthesis imposes the Reaper's vision of "understanding" and negates her efforts. How do you know how long it would take? Who are you to judge that? 

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And hey, did the Batarians ever donate money to Mindoir? Did the Turians donate to Shanxi?
The Geth donated to Eden Prime and that wasn't even their fault.

That could be argued as simply an emulation of charitable behavior.  No evidence of any actual emotion on their part.

How is one charitable without empathy? You're just trying to dance around the facts now.
There is no logical reason to donate funds to the survivors of Eden Prime, and if it was just random "charitable behaviour", why specifically Eden Prime? There are lots of charities out there.
Legion specifically bought a game designed to help Eden Prime, paid the highest amount for it and then never played it.

That is empathy. That is remorse.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis imposes the Reaper's vision of "understanding" and negates her efforts. How do you know how long it would take? Who are you to judge that? 

Who am I to judge?  Apparently the same thing that gives you the power to choose to do nothing.

[Ticonderoga117]

xsdob wrote...
Alright, here's a scenario for you than. A mass murdering cult leader has armed his cooalition and only you and a small group of freinds can stop him. Your friends don't have guns and are at the cults mercy, and the leader gives you a gun to kill him with, but has your friend as a human sheild. The cult members all have guns pointed at your friends and will kill them unless you either shoot through your friend and kill him.

He's killed 3 small towns and his entire church and followers can be stopped by shooting him right now, saving all of your other friends and any other towns he'd target.

Would you still refuse, even if it meant the other church members unloaded on you and your friends right now.

Uhm, why didn't we grab a flashbang.
Uhm, we don't we just shoot him in the stupid face.
Or, barring that, shoot the person in the foot, then shoot him in the face.
Or, let the appropriate professionals know, and watch the show.

This kind of contrivience is stupid, but ok, let's roll with it.

If I did kill my friend and the leader... why would the cultists let us go?

Why can't I use my knowledge of the bible to talk back crap at him?

ARGH! Again, this is the problem with ME3's ending. A forced situation that makes no sense.

[mass perfection]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Harbinger sums this up nicely.

"Your species will be brought into harmony with our own."

*Looks at Synthesis ending where people are hybrids (like the Reapers) and working together, hand in hand with them*

Yeah, we just lost a game we thought we won... Mass Effect 2.

Exactly.

[The Angry One]

xsdob wrote...

Alright, here's a scenario for you than. A mass murdering cult leader has armed his cooalition and only you and a small group of freinds can stop him. Your friends don't have guns and are at the cults mercy, and the leader gives you a gun to kill him with, but has your friend as a human sheild. The cult members all have guns pointed at your friends and will kill them unless you either shoot through your friend and kill him.

He's killed 3 small towns and his entire church and followers can be stopped by shooting him right now, saving all of your other friends and any other towns he'd target.

Would you still refuse, even if it meant the other church members unloaded on you and your friends right now.

Of course that scenario tips the scale in your favour making it one person.
So let me exchange that one person for an entire town and ask you, is one town worth it for let's say 5 others? Could you live with yourself? Or would you try to find another way and fight him on your own terms?