231 réponses à ce sujet

[Baronesa]

a question, because reading this discussion it is not clear to me.

Are synthetics (AI) lifeforms? are they alive... BEFORE synthesis?

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

You criticise it because you personally disagree with it.  Huge difference.  Again, you're not arguing from fact, you're arguing from personal belief and bias.

I criticise because it's wrong within the universe of Mass Effect, and I've stated why.

And really?  You're attacking Heeden by calling everything he/she says "headcanon" and how they're living in a fantasy world and that you're arguing from FACT!

Heeden is making assumptions based on nothing, just like before with the reject ending that "must" lead to synthesis. So yes, headcanon. How is that an attack?

[mass perfection]

Baronesa wrote...

a question, because reading this discussion it is not clear to me.

Are synthetics (AI) lifeforms? are they alive... BEFORE synthesis?

They're sentient.EDI and Legion have emotions.

[RiouHotaru]

Baronesa wrote...

a question, because reading this discussion it is not clear to me.

Are synthetics (AI) lifeforms? are they alive... BEFORE synthesis?

I suppose it depends on how you define alive.  They are sentient, sapient, and self-aware, yes.


But biologically, no they aren't.

[Heeden]

The Angry One wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Okay, just for you, the non-head-canonned version.

Because we'll be able to fully integrate with them, (Legion and
EDI have a conversation about the limits of "speech" in ME2).

So where is the non-headcanon version?

Aw c'mon, you're trying too hard now. The bit ouside the brackets is from the game, the bit inside the brackets describe an event in the game. I think you're a bit confused about what head-canon means :-P

So now it's telepathic. While fully integrating with AIs. Whatever.

Asari/Prothean type telepathy is the only feasible way I can think of green magic enacting Synthesis without getting silly and imagining it building robot-parts.

Human: "You killed my father. You turned my mother into a husk. You melted my siblings into grey goo. You took away my home. You destroyed my nation. I watched my comrades die to you every single day for MONTHS. You drove me to insanity with indoctrination. YOU TOOK AWAY EVERYTHING I EVER CARED ABOUT AND LEFT NOTHING BUT ASHES IN THEIR WAKE."

Reaper: "The Catalyst made me do it."

Human: "... oh that's okay then. Want to do lunch this Saturday? Go bowling maybe?"

Pretty much, I think most humans in the ME galaxy understand how computer programming works.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

a question, because reading this discussion it is not clear to me.

Are synthetics (AI) lifeforms? are they alive... BEFORE synthesis?

I suppose it depends on how you define alive.  They are sentient, sapient, and self-aware, yes.


But biologically, no they aren't.

And that's completely irrelevant. Synthetics are a different form of life.

[Romaka]

Baronesa wrote...

a question, because reading this discussion it is not clear to me.

Are synthetics (AI) lifeforms? are they alive... BEFORE synthesis?

I think they are through what is shown throughout ME2 and ME3 but the game then tells you that is not the case which then makes me wonder what was the point talking to Legion or EDI at any point in time if they were not alive.  At least that is the way I see it.

[Heeden]

mass perfection wrote...

Don't you think the Geth would like to solve that problem on their own terms?Legion says in ME2 that the Geth want to advance on their own rather than let others (Reapers) advance them.

Yes, then in ME3 he uploads the Reaper code to the consensus.

[RiouHotaru]

I never stated they weren't. Just that by the biological definition, they aren't. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

[Monarchos915]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Monarchos915 wrote...

Because, while I'm sure there was an initial shock to the the Reapers chillin around every one all non-chalant and all, they are no longer trying to harvest them and slaughter them.

They are now the embodiement of billions of souls, freed from their endless torment, and they too have been freed from the cycle. I'd imagine that the since everyone now has the capabilty to connect minds and share information with everyone else at will, old hatreds and prejudices based on limited experience and the inability to "walk in another's shoes" will die quickly. New perceptions are available to the individual now, and it will be obvious the reapers are no longer an existential threat.

I agree with this, but watch as TAO labels this as either "ridiculous", "not supported by canon", or just outright calls it headcanon again.

Do forgive me for calling headcanon what it is, and for recognising that normal human beings will not care about the anguish of the giant metal monster that was turning their friends into goo a week ago.

They are no longer "normal human beings" at least not by pre-synthesis definitions and are not subject to a incredibly limited viewpoint. An entirely new perspective will be available to those who survive, with selfish vengeance obviously pretty down on the list, and tolerance pretty high on the list. Given the entirely new ability to literally "walk in another's shoes."

It really is a game changer.

Imagine how many real world conflicts would have been avoided if one side could understand EXACTLY what it's like to be the other side, and vice-versa. If I could make that happen today, you bet your ass I would.

Modifié par Monarchos915, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:29 .

[The Angry One]

Heeden wrote...

Aw c'mon, you're trying too hard now. The bit ouside the brackets is from the game, the bit inside the brackets describe an event in the game. I think you're a bit confused about what head-canon means :-P

You're talking about synthetics finding speech limiting.
How does it follow that organics will now communicate like synthetics, especially when you claim synthesis doesn't change them? Which is it?

Asari/Prothean type telepathy is the only feasible way I can think of green magic enacting Synthesis without getting silly and imagining it building robot-parts.

And how would they communicate with machines?

Pretty much, I think most humans in the ME galaxy understand how computer programming works.

Really. Really? There are humans who still haven't gotten over what the Turians did, and you think they'll be just fine with giant war-criminal bots because they claim they were "only following orders".

[The Angry One]

Monarchos915 wrote...

They are no longer "normal human beings" at least not by pre-synthesis definitions and are not subject to a incredibly limited viewpoint. An entirely new perspective will be available to those who survive, with selfish vengeance obviously pretty down on the list, and tolerance pretty high on the list. Given the entirely new ability to literally "walk in another's shoes."

It really is a game changer.

Imagine how many real world conflicts would have been avoided if one side could understand EXACTLY what it's like to be the other side, and vice-versa. If I could make that happen today, you bet your ass I would.

Incredibly limited... are you kidding? Tell me you're kidding. Selfish vengeance?
Am I talking about organising an army to blow up Reapers or something? I'm saying they wouldn't be very HAPPY with the situation. No amount of "understanding" can take away the pain of what these people have experienced and if you think it does then I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a similar situation and have to learn this the hard way.

[Romaka]

Monarchos915 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Monarchos915 wrote...

Because, while I'm sure there was an initial shock to the the Reapers chillin around every one all non-chalant and all, they are no longer trying to harvest them and slaughter them.

They are now the embodiement of billions of souls, freed from their endless torment, and they too have been freed from the cycle. I'd imagine that the since everyone now has the capabilty to connect minds and share information with everyone else at will, old hatreds and prejudices based on limited experience and the inability to "walk in another's shoes" will die quickly. New perceptions are available to the individual now, and it will be obvious the reapers are no longer an existential threat.

I agree with this, but watch as TAO labels this as either "ridiculous", "not supported by canon", or just outright calls it headcanon again.

Do forgive me for calling headcanon what it is, and for recognising that normal human beings will not care about the anguish of the giant metal monster that was turning their friends into goo a week ago.

They are no longer "normal human beings" at least not by pre-synthesis definitions and are not subject to a incredibly limited viewpoint. An entirely new perspective will be available to those who survive, with selfish vengeance obviously pretty down on the list, and tolerance pretty high on the list. Given the entirely new ability to literally "walk in another's shoes."

It really is a game changer.

Imagine how many real world conflicts would have been avoided if one side could understand EXACTLY what it's like to be the other side, and vice-versa. If I could make that happen today, you bet your ass I would.

That right there says that people are no longer who they were anymore.  Thought processes change, personality change.  Removal of who they were and replacing it with something else.  That is the way that looks to me.

[RiouHotaru]

Some people won't like it sure. But really, the ones who haven't gotten over the turians are so in the minority it's laughable.

[mass perfection]

Heeden wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Don't you think the Geth would like to solve that problem on their own terms?Legion says in ME2 that the Geth want to advance on their own rather than let others (Reapers) advance them.

Yes, then in ME3 he uploads the Reaper code to the consensus.

He only did it to save his people.Just like how they turned to the Reapers to save theirsleves from the Quarians.

[Baronesa]

Ok.. Riou... so only if you are organic you can be alive? SO you are putting the building blocks before the consciousness.

By what you state there, any other form of self aware, intelligent and conscious being that is not made of organic material would not be alive?

Are we more than just our building blocks?

That is what i get from your response to me.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Some people won't like it sure. But really, the ones who haven't gotten over the turians are so in the minority it's laughable.

Because that was one incident. On one colony. Decades ago.
I think that maybe one colony being bombed is less impactful than organised genocide, torture, mutilation and relentless psychological warfare.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[RiouHotaru]

Baronesa wrote...

Ok.. Riou... so only if you are organic you can be alive? SO you are putting the building blocks before the consciousness.

By what you state there, any other form of self aware, intelligent and conscious being that is not made of organic material would not be alive?

Are we more than just our building blocks?

That is what i get from your response to me.

Again, putting words in my mouth.  Biologically, they don't fit the definition of life AS WE KNOW IT.

That doesn't mean they aren't a form of life.

Seriously, what's with the overanalysis and jumping to sudden hasty conclusions here?

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, putting words in my mouth.  Biologically, they don't fit the definition of life AS WE KNOW IT.

That doesn't mean they aren't a form of life.

Seriously, what's with the overanalysis and jumping to sudden hasty conclusions here?

Yes they don't fit life as we know it. So what right do we have to force them to become life as we know it rather than their own beings?
Would you force a Hanar to speak like you? Would you force an Elcor to show emotion like you?

[mass perfection]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, putting words in my mouth.  Biologically, they don't fit the definition of life AS WE KNOW IT.

That doesn't mean they aren't a form of life.

Seriously, what's with the overanalysis and jumping to sudden hasty conclusions here?

Yes they don't fit life as we know it. So what right do we have to force them to become life as we know it rather than their own beings?
Would you force a Hanar to speak like you? Would you force an Elcor to show emotion like you?

This.

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I suppose it depends on how you define alive.  They are sentient, sapient, and self-aware, yes.

But biologically, no they aren't.

Not putting words in your mouth.

You said they are not alive.

Whenver you say "They are X yes, but then -X" whenever you add a BUT in your explanation, you are negating the first statement.

Granted you clarified this statement on the following posts... but don't act as if we put words in your mouth because that is what YOU SAID on your first post.

Modifié par Baronesa, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:39 .

[Monarchos915]

The Angry One wrote...

Monarchos915 wrote...

They are no longer "normal human beings" at least not by pre-synthesis definitions and are not subject to a incredibly limited viewpoint. An entirely new perspective will be available to those who survive, with selfish vengeance obviously pretty down on the list, and tolerance pretty high on the list. Given the entirely new ability to literally "walk in another's shoes."

It really is a game changer.

Imagine how many real world conflicts would have been avoided if one side could understand EXACTLY what it's like to be the other side, and vice-versa. If I could make that happen today, you bet your ass I would.

Incredibly limited... are you kidding? Tell me you're kidding. Selfish vengeance?
Am I talking about organising an army to blow up Reapers or something? I'm saying they wouldn't be very HAPPY with the situation. No amount of "understanding" can take away the pain of what these people have experienced and if you think it does then I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a similar situation and have to learn this the hard way.

Don't presume to know me personally and what I have and haven't gone through in my own life. I will leave it at that, because you're coming awfully close to crossing a very fine line.

And no I am not kidding when I describe it as selfish vengeance and incredibly limited, particularly given the bigger picture. Based on pre-synthesis experiences everyone would be completely justified in wanting to blow the Reapers to hell, Post-synthesis is a completely different situation, with entirely new perspectives available. It would be foolish to apply pre-synthesis perspective to post-synthesis perspective, since it really is a radically different.

Also, We really have little to no timeframe as to how long it took for everyone to accept the Reapers, could have been immediately, could have been much  longer, but you have to understand that it is heavily implied in the game that the Reapers were slaves to the cycle just as much as those being harvested were. Given the epilogue slides, it's safe to assume most people eventually understood this.

Modifié par Monarchos915, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:41 .

[res27772]

Y'know, after the EC came out, Synthesis was initially my favourite ending, 'cause everyone "survives", but now, I have a hard time making my mind up which is "right". They all have their good and bad points. With synthesis, for example, if you chose to sabotage the genophage cure the Krogan can still be saved... BUT, you're forcing every species in the galaxy to become partly synthetic.... even tho' AI-Kid said it can't be "forced"... Hmm, just noticed that contradiction...

Anyway....

[The Angry One]

Monarchos915 wrote...

Don't presume to know me personally and what I have and haven't gone through in my own life. I will leave it at that, because you're coming awfully close to crossing a very fine line.

I know that you have clearly never experienced the kind of pain that would cause you to hate the perpetrators like this.
Your words prove this. You sit in judgement over others because you have no idea what it means.

And no I am not kidding when I describe it as selfish vengeance and incredibly limited, particularly given the bigger picture. Based on pre-synthesis experiences everyone would be completely justified in wanting to blow the Reapers to hell, but We really have little to no timeframe as to how long it took for everyone to
accept the Reapers, could have been immediately, could have been much
longer, but you have to understand that it is heavily implied in the game that the Reapers were slaves to the cycle just as much as those being harvested were.

It's selfish vengeance to not be HAPPY that the things that destroyed everything you loved are walking about free and clear?
We see London being rebuilt with people just fine with the Reapers in the background. Timeframe? Not very long.

The Reapers being slaves is entirely an assumption also, one which Sovereign and Harbinger do not support.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:42 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

You save everyone, so no, nobody looses. Except for the Reapers.