231 réponses à ce sujet

[Romaka]

[quote]Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Would you trust whatever a mass murderer told you?[/quote]

If it gave me the option to save everyone I know and love, sure. 

[/quote]

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

[elitehunter34]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Not the point.  If his argument is sound and the logic of it makes sense, then sure, why not?

Again, status doesn't apply.

Because they could be lying?

[Romaka]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Would you trust whatever a mass murderer told you?

Not the point.  If his argument is sound and the logic of it makes sense, then sure, why not?

Again, status doesn't apply.

And if his argument is simply based around his warped view of the situation? Do you still trust it?

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

A "better future" it and it alone has determined. The most prolific murderer the universe has ever known.
When someone comes up with a solution by themselves, who they are and what they've done becomes very relevant.

Technically, that's an ad hominem.  Just because he's the Catalyst doesn't make his argument invalid.

If a mass murderer comes out and says killing his wrong and comes up with a solution to lower the crime rate, the fact he's a murderer doesn't invalidate his argument.  Hypocrisy isn't a fallacy.

The Catalyst never said it was wrong. It in fact claims it's right and attempts to justify it's actions with lies and sugar-coating.
It says it's current solution no longer works, but it never states why, and certainly never even implies it's because it's freaking evil and stupid.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Would you trust whatever a mass murderer told you?

Not the point.  If his argument is sound and the logic of it makes sense, then sure, why not?

Again, status doesn't apply.

It's arguments are grossly illogical relying on appeals to probability and it's own authority.
It makes no sense whatsoever and lies to your face.

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Romaka wrote...

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

I have no less reason to believe the Catalyst than so many other characters. He may be alying bastard, but I'm willing to take that chance, if it may save everyone. 

But hey, if you really don't trust it, feel free to shoot the Catalyst in the face. That way, everyone dies for sure.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:04 .

[Romaka]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

I have no less reason to believe the Catalyst than so many other characters. He may be alying bastard, but I'm willing to take that chance, if it may save everyone. 

But hey, if you really don't trust it, feel free to shoot the Catalyst in the face. That way, everyone dies for sure.

Disregard the ending.  You only absolutely know everyone dies because that is the ending.

Are you willing to commit suicide on the chance that someone will hold up their end of a bargain.  The possibility being that they just want you to commit suicide to get you out of the way.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

If it gave me the option to save everyone I know and love, sure. 

How would you trust that the option that the mass murderer gave you is going to do what he says it does?

You know, when the whole galaxy is burning, and millions of people are dying while I'm just standing there, talking to the Catalyst, I think I'm willing to take that chance. 

The worst thing that can happen is that Shepard dies. Is your Shepard's life really that important? I thought Shepard was supposed to be a hero.

[UberDeanski]

The Angry One wrote...

The most prolific murderer the universe has ever known....

There's that moral relativism again.  By our standards certainly Catalyst fits this description, but what about by Catalyst's standards?  How can we possibly hope to judge the actions and motivations of an omnipotent pan-galatic god-like entity?

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

I have no less reason to believe the Catalyst than so many other characters. He may be alying bastard, but I'm willing to take that chance, if it may save everyone. 

But hey, if you really don't trust it, feel free to shoot the Catalyst in the face. That way, everyone dies for sure.

Disregard the ending.  You only absolutely know everyone dies because that is the ending.

Are you willing to commit suicide on the chance that someone will hold up their end of a bargain.  The possibility being that they just want you to commit suicide to get you out of the way.

If it was a Reaper telling me to shoot myself in the head, no.

When an AI that claims to be the father of all Reapers gives the options, on top of the Citadel, with the Catalyst I spent to whole game bulding, with millions of people dying while I stand there? Yes, I'm willing to take that chance. 

[Dharvy]

 I see synthesis as form of enlightenment or rapid understanding through some form of augmentation.

For an example, say someone has racist hatred and intolerance and was raised that way from youth. Now all of us that have a better understanding, tolerance, our own form of enlightenment knows that racism is wrong. Lets say that person over the years learns that the racism they were raised from youth to envelope, spew, and believe in is wrong and they're no longer racist. Synthesis is probably like giving that person that level of understanding/enlightenment in a matter of a second. Giving that person a perspective that it may take years to achieve. Giving them an understanding that will quell their hatred.

People talk of self-determination but looking at the ingame conflict of the Quarians and the Geth. Was it going on for what, 300 years? Someone may look at that after the fact and say "see they worked it out without synthesis see its not needed." But 300 years of conflict, war, death, loss of love ones, loss of home, fear, pain, suffering, all of it unneccessary, but at least they were all able to self determine. But in reality choices was made by others and whoever came along after had to live with it whether you wanted to or not. They were forced out of their home planet because of choices made by someone. Forced to wear suits all their life because some others chose to make war out of fear and ignorance. I know everyone didn't choose to fight the geth. To my understanding of synthesis an understanding would have been reached beforehand and no need for conflict to even arise, especially not at the catastrophic proportions it did arise.

In reality someone will nearly always make some kind of choice that would impact/force something upon your life whether they do it intentionally or not.

But in game wise I have a Shepard that would choose each ending choice. You see my Shepard is a leader, and s/he either signed up for it or forced upon them by the galactic neccessity and as a leader have to make some hard decisions regarding the people you gathered together to lead.

Also on a side note: if they would have made the ending choices with you talking your people it would have been a nice touch.

Say for Destroy you contact hacket and the normandy and you have some kinda heart wrenching scene where EDI and the Geth agree to be sacrificed for the good for the good of the galaxy.

Or in Control they agree for you to pull the reapers back and have them fix all they've destroyed.

Or in Synthesis you can herald it as the end all to the conflict of organics and synthetics and edge us into a new era.

And for refuse. You can have everyone stand behind you and refuse the catalyst, refuse to compromise, refuse to sacrifice our allies, refuse to have anything to do with the Reapers, and willing to die fighting them.

I feel that little addition would have added a little more closure to each ending for some people, knowing their "galaxy" was behind their decision.

[The Angry One]

UberDeanski wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The most prolific murderer the universe has ever known....

There's that moral relativism again.  By our standards certainly Catalyst fits this description, but what about by Catalyst's standards?  How can we possibly hope to judge the actions and motivations of an omnipotent pan-galatic god-like entity?

Because it's nothing but an insane AI that perverted it's creator's directives.
I will no more consider it above judgement than I would a highly intelligent human (and assuming the Catalyst is highly intelllgent is quite a leap, mind you, given it behaves like an idiot).

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst never said it was wrong. It in fact claims it's right and attempts to justify it's actions with lies and sugar-coating.
It says it's current solution no longer works, but it never states why, and certainly never even implies it's because it's freaking evil and stupid.

It's arguments are grossly illogical relying on appeals to probability and it's own authority.
It makes no sense whatsoever and lies to your face.

He claims Synthesis is his preferred option because it's one he tried and couldn't get to work for various legitimate reasons.  And the reasoning behind it isn't invalid either.  It's an option now because of the circumstances, so it makes sense he'd offer it.

Neither Destroy nor Control fixes the issue.  It gets rid of the Reapers, but doesn't solve the underlying issue.  His solution doesn't work anymore for the obvious reason that oh yeah this cycle has likely resisted to greater effect than any cycle beforehand.

Again, he states you're the FIRST organic to find him, it's an eventuality he didn't consider would occur, or that the chances of it happening were so small as to be ignorable.  It means organics have progressed to a point where his solution winds up no longer being viable because they're organized far better than any other cycle.

He's openly recognizing that you've bested his answer, so he needs another.

[Romaka]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

I have no less reason to believe the Catalyst than so many other characters. He may be alying bastard, but I'm willing to take that chance, if it may save everyone. 

But hey, if you really don't trust it, feel free to shoot the Catalyst in the face. That way, everyone dies for sure.

Disregard the ending.  You only absolutely know everyone dies because that is the ending.

Are you willing to commit suicide on the chance that someone will hold up their end of a bargain.  The possibility being that they just want you to commit suicide to get you out of the way.

If it was a Reaper telling me to shoot myself in the head, no.

When an AI that claims to be the father of all Reapers gives the options, on top of the Citadel, with the Catalyst I spent to whole game bulding, with millions of people dying while I stand there? Yes, I'm willing to take that chance. 

Remember the Catalyst states it is the collective concoiousness of the Reapers.  The same Reapers you have been fighting. 

What reason do they have to tell the truth?  Their self interest is entirely to either make Shepard do what they want or convince him to commit suicide.

[Baronesa]

UberDeanski wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The most prolific murderer the universe has ever known....

There's that moral relativism again.  By our standards certainly Catalyst fits this description, but what about by Catalyst's standards?  How can we possibly hope to judge the actions and motivations of an omnipotent pan-galatic god-like entity?

Because we use our morals for that... same reason old gods from ancient textbooks are all morally reprehensible. Furthermore, we are the victims of it's actions, so WE judge him on OUR standards.

And the "godchild" is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

[RiouHotaru]

Romaka wrote...

Disregard the ending.  You only absolutely know everyone dies because that is the ending.

Are you willing to commit suicide on the chance that someone will hold up their end of a bargain.  The possibility being that they just want you to commit suicide to get you out of the way.

Here's how it works, using your logic:

Take one of the Catalyst's options= Possibility it's a trap, Shepard dies, Cycle goes on.  Possibility it'll Work As Intended (WAI) and end the Cycle.

Refuse his options; do nothing= Absolute certainty everyone dies, Cycle goes on.  No possibility of ending the Cycle for Shepard, hope future Cycle can do it, but you won't live to see it happen.

Which seems logically more attractive?

[RiouHotaru]

Romaka wrote...

Remember the Catalyst states it is the collective concoiousness of the Reapers.  The same Reapers you have been fighting. 

What reason do they have to tell the truth?  Their self interest is entirely to either make Shepard do what they want or convince him to commit suicide.

Correction.  Collective intelligence.  Not consciousness.  He's still a single being.  He simply has the knowledge the Reapers posess at his disposal.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

He claims Synthesis is his preferred option because it's one he tried and couldn't get to work for various legitimate reasons.  And the reasoning behind it isn't invalid either.  It's an option now because of the circumstances, so it makes sense he'd offer it.

How is "organics weren't ready then, but they are now... no I won't say why" a legitimate reason?

Neither Destroy nor Control fixes the issue.  It gets rid of the Reapers, but doesn't solve the underlying issue.  His solution doesn't work anymore for the obvious reason that oh yeah this cycle has likely resisted to greater effect than any cycle beforehand.

THERE IS NO UNDERLYING ISSUE. Nothing supports it's paranoid stupidity. In fact, it itself admits that organic life has nevere been truly in danger of extinction.

This cycle resisted due to actions by the Protheans that prevented the cycle from occuring on schedule, and because Reapers are apparently extremely sloppy in clearing up beacons and leftovers.

Again, he states you're the FIRST organic to find him, it's an eventuality he didn't consider would occur, or that the chances of it happening were so small as to be ignorable.  It means organics have progressed to a point where his solution winds up no longer being viable because they're organized far better than any other cycle.

He's openly recognizing that you've bested his answer, so he needs another.

How does an organic meeting it make the cycle unviable?

Modifié par The Angry One, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:20 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Romaka wrote...

Even though you have no reason to trust the mass murderer what so ever?  Disregard that you actually know what happens in the end.

 Would you trust them?  Because after you make your choice to die the possibility is that they can turn around and just kill them anyway.

I have no less reason to believe the Catalyst than so many other characters. He may be alying bastard, but I'm willing to take that chance, if it may save everyone. 

But hey, if you really don't trust it, feel free to shoot the Catalyst in the face. That way, everyone dies for sure.

Disregard the ending.  You only absolutely know everyone dies because that is the ending.

Are you willing to commit suicide on the chance that someone will hold up their end of a bargain.  The possibility being that they just want you to commit suicide to get you out of the way.

If it was a Reaper telling me to shoot myself in the head, no.

When an AI that claims to be the father of all Reapers gives the options, on top of the Citadel, with the Catalyst I spent to whole game bulding, with millions of people dying while I stand there? Yes, I'm willing to take that chance. 

Remember the Catalyst states it is the collective concoiousness of the Reapers.  The same Reapers you have been fighting. 

What reason do they have to tell the truth?  Their self interest is entirely to either make Shepard do what they want or convince him to commit suicide.

How many times do I have to type the same thing?! When so many lifes are at stake, that's a chance I'm willing to take. If I listen to the Catalyst, there's a chance I might save everyone. If I just stand there and go "hmm, not sure if I should believe you", everyone dies for sure because the Reapers are unstoppable. 

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Here's how it works, using your logic:

Take one of the Catalyst's options= Possibility it's a trap, Shepard dies, Cycle goes on.  Possibility it'll Work As Intended (WAI) and end the Cycle.

Refuse his options; do nothing= Absolute certainty everyone dies, Cycle goes on.  No possibility of ending the Cycle for Shepard, hope future Cycle can do it, but you won't live to see it happen.

Which seems logically more attractive?

Here's your logic.

"I believe the Catalyst and assume everything it says to be true despite the fact that it's backed up by absolutely nothing, it's solution was clearly unecesarry and it's clearly lying in that very conversation!"

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

He claims Synthesis is his preferred option because it's one he tried and couldn't get to work for various legitimate reasons.  And the reasoning behind it isn't invalid either.  It's an option now because of the circumstances, so it makes sense he'd offer it.

Neither Destroy nor Control fixes the issue.  It gets rid of the Reapers, but doesn't solve the underlying issue.  His solution doesn't work anymore for the obvious reason that oh yeah this cycle has likely resisted to greater effect than any cycle beforehand.

Again, he states you're the FIRST organic to find him, it's an eventuality he didn't consider would occur, or that the chances of it happening were so small as to be ignorable.  It means organics have progressed to a point where his solution winds up no longer being viable because they're organized far better than any other cycle.

He's openly recognizing that you've bested his answer, so he needs another.

But... we are back to square one...

fr some of us the underlying issue or problem was NEVER there!

It all comes to what do YOU think about the technological singularity. Nothing in game points towards one side or another, in the same way tha tnothing in real life points to one side or another, because it is an unknown.

The problem is "synthetics destroying ALL life" that has never happened. it is an assumption that you can either accept or reject. But nothing in game besides the words of the catalyst points towards the singularity being bad, and in fact our own interactions with synthetics show us the contrary point of view

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Here's your logic.

"I believe the Catalyst and assume everything it says to be true despite the fact that it's backed up by absolutely nothing, it's solution was clearly unecesarry and it's clearly lying in that very conversation!"

Still holds.  If he's lying, and I pick an option, we're no better off than we were if I did nothing.  In which case, picking an option I think fits me (assuming I'm Shepard) works better than doing nothing, which again GUARANTEES failure.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Here's your logic.

"I believe the Catalyst and assume everything it says to be true despite the fact that it's backed up by absolutely nothing, it's solution was clearly unecesarry and it's clearly lying in that very conversation!"

Still holds.  If he's lying, and I pick an option, we're no better off than we were if I did nothing.  In which case, picking an option I think fits me (assuming I'm Shepard) works better than doing nothing, which again GUARANTEES failure.

If it's lying, it may be obfuscating the Crucible's true function. Hence using it it's way may break it.
Regardless of that, even if you must cooperate with the Catalyst, synthesis is never a viable option. Ever.

[2Shepards]

RiouHotaru wrote...

People love to just take everything negatively don't they. Would it kill some of you to look at the bright side or the silver lining?

Synthesis removes the gap of understanding between organics and synthetics:

Synthesis removes whatever makes you, you and me, me.

fixed

[RiouHotaru]

 

The Angry One wrote...

If it's lying, it may be obfuscating the Crucible's true function. Hence using it it's way may break it.
Regardless of that, even if you must cooperate with the Catalyst, synthesis is never a viable option. Ever.

According to your beliefs and principles.  Obviously it's viable and worth risking.  And there are risks and consequences involved.  As Nesa stated, part of it is whether or not you BELIEVE there's an underlying conflict.

If you do, it's an option.

If not, then it's not.

Simple as that.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:30 .