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Doesn't Synthesis mean everyone loses?


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#201
Romaka

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

How many times do I have to type the same thing?! When so many lifes are at stake, that's a chance I'm willing to take. If I listen to the Catalyst, there's a chance I might save everyone. If I just stand there and go "hmm, not sure if I should believe you", everyone dies for sure because the Reapers are unstoppable. 


I am not saying that your opinion is the wrong opinion. I am only stating that other posibilities exist.  Everyone dies for sure because that is what the ending shows.  Shepard would not know.

What I am saying is that the possibility exists that by doing what the main villain wants could possibly be the actual reason why Shepard would fail.  It is only after the endings are shown do you know.  But Shepard would not.

Essentially I just think it is illogical for the hero to roll over and be subservient to the whims of the villain.  Especially not a hero like Shepard.

#202
Brovikk Rasputin

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Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

How many times do I have to type the same thing?! When so many lifes are at stake, that's a chance I'm willing to take. If I listen to the Catalyst, there's a chance I might save everyone. If I just stand there and go "hmm, not sure if I should believe you", everyone dies for sure because the Reapers are unstoppable. 


I am not saying that your opinion is the wrong opinion. I am only stating that other posibilities exist.  Everyone dies for sure because that is what the ending shows.  Shepard would not know.

What I am saying is that the possibility exists that by doing what the main villain wants could possibly be the actual reason why Shepard would fail.  It is only after the endings are shown do you know.  But Shepard would not.

Essentially I just think it is illogical for the hero to roll over and be subservient to the whims of the villain.  Especially not a hero like Shepard.

It's illogical for a hero to just stand there and ask questions about what COULD happen, while the entire galaxy is getting destroyed.

#203
Baronesa

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Romaka wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

How many times do I have to type the same thing?! When so many lifes are at stake, that's a chance I'm willing to take. If I listen to the Catalyst, there's a chance I might save everyone. If I just stand there and go "hmm, not sure if I should believe you", everyone dies for sure because the Reapers are unstoppable. 


I am not saying that your opinion is the wrong opinion. I am only stating that other posibilities exist.  Everyone dies for sure because that is what the ending shows.  Shepard would not know.

What I am saying is that the possibility exists that by doing what the main villain wants could possibly be the actual reason why Shepard would fail.  It is only after the endings are shown do you know.  But Shepard would not.

Essentially I just think it is illogical for the hero to roll over and be subservient to the whims of the villain.  Especially not a hero like Shepard.


Exactly... specially if basically all of Shepard's career is based on defying the odds -.-

#204
JohnZ117

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Somewhere in the middle, Shepard fixed the galaxy. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

Why are you opposed to this ending?  That it was done with out consent?  Approximately 1500 Geth couldn't make up their minds in 20 minutes, and you expect Shepard to poll the whole of the galaxy in less than 5?

That this change was forced on the populous?  Think about history, the world's and your own, and how many times change was optional.  Atleast this time, the change was for the better.  Yes, better.

That it was endorsed by the Catalyst?  I dare you to try to phrase this so it doesn't read as an ad hominem fallacy. Just because it is a borderline-amoral killer doesn't mean it is always wrong.

We are given no evidence to suggest the horrific consequences some of you have posted.  However we do see cooperation and renewal and galactic harmony.  There are pics, so it did happen!

#205
RiouHotaru

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Actually Shepard DOES know they'll fail. Shepard throughout the ENTIRE GAME states the Crucible is their trump card, their last, best hope. The Catalyst states that you're outnumbered and expended almost all your resources, and the fact you have front row season pass tickets to the fleet getting smashed proves his point.

Shepard's speech when you refuse outright states "We'll die fighting." So even SHEPARD admits death is inevitable.

So yeah. The point STILL stands.

Picking an option has a chance of success

Doing nothing guarantees failure. There's no way around that logic.

#206
Dharvy

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Baronesa wrote...

UberDeanski wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The most prolific murderer the universe has ever known....


There's that moral relativism again.  By our standards certainly Catalyst fits this description, but what about by Catalyst's standards?  How can we possibly hope to judge the actions and motivations of an omnipotent pan-galatic god-like entity?


Because we use our morals for that... same reason old gods from ancient textbooks are all morally reprehensible. Furthermore, we are the victims of it's actions, so WE judge him on OUR standards.

And the "godchild" is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

I understand where you're coming from in that WE judge him on OUR standards because we are the victims.

But considereing IIRC that in Synthesis we get all the information from all the cycles or something like that from the Reapers because they were storing all the cycles? So in the catalyst and reapers defense, I see it like they see a conflict between organics and synthetics where synthetics wipe organics completely out because lack of understanding causes all wars it seems. And the reapers are harvesting the cycles, storing the data of all organic beings to prevent a synthetic erase. Its sort of like back up instead of deleting. Now they are doing this in hopes that we can reach a synthesis where all the data can be shared and used.

In a big picture kind of way it don't seem so evil, but in a small picture executing said plan is quite gruesome and evil.

But if death (an inescapable phenomenon), nothingness, non existence, is so much more preferable than unpleasent life, or saving said life/information to be downloaded/used/shared later how would we judge such morally?

Just a thought.

#207
Romaka

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually Shepard DOES know they'll fail. Shepard throughout the ENTIRE GAME states the Crucible is their trump card, their last, best hope. The Catalyst states that you're outnumbered and expended almost all your resources, and the fact you have front row season pass tickets to the fleet getting smashed proves his point.

Shepard's speech when you refuse outright states "We'll die fighting." So even SHEPARD admits death is inevitable.

So yeah. The point STILL stands.

Picking an option has a chance of success

Doing nothing guarantees failure. There's no way around that logic.


I am not arguing against the fact that the Crucible is the hope of the galaxy as it has been written. Only that the choices that Shepard is given in order to use the Crucible is given by the enemy.  And simply that the enemy, by nature of being the enemy, could have been misleading Shepard.

#208
AngryFrozenWater

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@Romaka:

Other than organics having biochemical brains and synthetics having artificial brains there is no fundamental difference. Both are self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. That makes them alive.

However, I agree that everyone lost when the differences are taken away. What really happens is that both the involved organics and synthetics have ceased to exist. They are extinct. Synthesis implicates the denial of the right of organics and synthetics to exist, because it is invoked upon them without their consent. It's genocide without bodies.

Somehow synthesis should be able to force peace among organics, synthetics, and according to the EC, reapers and husks, because that peace cannot drop from thin air. It is not enough to force the removal of physical changes. Humans, for an example, are perfectly able to fight each other for ages. Uprisings and war have more to do with power and distribution of wealth than their racial origin.

So if the forced removal of the physical differences is not enough then there must be something that also changes their mind. From the epilogue it is clear that this peace is forced the moment synthesis hits their victims:

If you compare the reactions in destroy and synthesis of humans and husks then you'll notice that in destroy the husks and humans fight until the husks are either shot or killed by the wave, whereas in synthesis both stop fighting each other. The latter reaction is odd, to say the least, especially when hordes of husks were trying to kill those same soldiers a second ago. A natural reaction would be to finish them off and not quit in the middle of a fight. The idea that husks are seen as abominations which should be killed as soon as possible to save your skin, does not change when only your body changes. In fact, everyone infected by synthesis should have felt pain, because of the sudden physical changes. Or maybe panic, shock or fear invoked by that completely new mysterious body and the bodies of everyone around you. Instead we see an instant apathy: It is as if they were forced to stop fighting and the humans just gaze at the leaving reapers.

Although their bodies completely changed, their minds still think that their old bodies exist and they protect their wounds from the fight as if that is more painful than their complete physiological change. The turians and krogan just look at their own new body for a second and nobody seem to think it is a problem that everyone looks completely different and husk-like.

If there is no mind control whatsoever then the above reactions are odd. Especially the krogan victims behave strange, because they already have been victims of eugenics before and hated, for obvious reasons, the turians and salarians for it. If their thought processes were not effected by synthesis then they would have been angry that they were once again victims of racial identity mutilation.

The krogan responded to the synthesis infection much like they responded to the genophage cure. There was a difference between the two events: The genophage cure was a planned action and synthesis could not be predicted. The amazement of the genophage cure, when we see the krogan responding to the cloud, had to do with that the plan succeeded. So obviously they were overjoyed. In synthesis this was unannounced. It was like thunder at a blue sky. Nobody new what was about to happen and when it happened one could not predict it was a positive event the moment it happened. The other races responded in much the same way: Either apathy or amazement struck them. Including the husks.

That can only mean one thing: Synthesis not only completely changes the physiology, it also infects the races mentally and forces them to believe that their society has reached peace. The cinamatics of synthesis then paint a Disney-like utopian pipe dream in which everyone lives happily ever after.

The problem with all this is a 180 degrees course change to what Shepard has fought for and what Shepard's allies agreed upon: They fought for their own continued existence and for the destruction or defeat of the reapers. With synthesis that existence is the only thing barely left. An existence where the reapers still exist and are not defeated was forced upon the races by an elitist Shepard who believes that a superior race must be the future. The only ones who share that view is the brat and the indoctrinated and now dead Saren. These allies are forced into submission to those reapers. It's an unconditional surrender forced by mind control. It's much like the Matrix, but this time the bodies are not kept alive in pods and everyone keeps walking instead. Who you are and what you are is replaced by Shepard's "essence of who [he/is] and what [he/she] is" with no room for diversity and free will, because whatever the end point of synthesis is, it's again developed along the paths the brat and the boys desire. The kind of traps that brought the cyclical genocide of the reapers that now also brought their victims mind control are just variations of the reaper's theme, woven into the galaxy for aeons.

The theme of the reapers, the violation of the right of self-determination, continues in synthesis. Everywhere they went the reapers felt they had the right to determine what to do with the races they encountered. They treated organic and synthetic life much like cattle they could feed on. Their cyclical genocide served one purpose: Their own reproduction. Much like predators, it also made sure they stayed on top of the food chain. At least in our galaxy. That violation still continues because of the forced utopia. If synthesis is no utopia then it shouldn't act like one.

If the reapers didn't dream up synthesis, but the ones that dreamed up the Crucible, then they are just as guilty. They didn't learn a lesson from being victims from that violation. It is all easy to understand: If a race decides that hybrid organics/synthetics should be their future then they should make that decision. And its members should have an opt-in choice. Such a radical change should be the result of free will, because forced utopia is an oxymoron.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .


#209
RiouHotaru

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JohnZ117 wrote...

Somewhere in the middle, Shepard fixed the galaxy. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

Why are you opposed to this ending?  That it was done with out consent?  Approximately 1500 Geth couldn't make up their minds in 20 minutes, and you expect Shepard to poll the whole of the galaxy in less than 5?

That this change was forced on the populous?  Think about history, the world's and your own, and how many times change was optional.  Atleast this time, the change was for the better.  Yes, better.

That it was endorsed by the Catalyst?  I dare you to try to phrase this so it doesn't read as an ad hominem fallacy. Just because it is a borderline-amoral killer doesn't mean it is always wrong.

We are given no evidence to suggest the horrific consequences some of you have posted.  However we do see cooperation and renewal and galactic harmony.  There are pics, so it did happen!


I don't get the vitrol either.  The Synthesis camp has no qualms with the Refuse camp.  The only time they do is when Refuse-proponents attempt to argue that being the post-mortem instigator of galaxy-wide extinction is a lesser crime than Synthesis' alteration of someone's DNA.  And has someone who picks Destroy and is WELL aware of the consequences for it I find it ridiculous for Refusal-propnents to take that stance.

At least Synthesis-campers admit there's a huge number of unknowns and uncertainty in their choice and admit it.  Good luck getting any pro-Refuse folks to admit guilt of any kind.

#210
Solaxe

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Again with this fallacy. For the 50,000th time. Destroy and refuse reflect already established agreements with all species to fight and resist the Reapers.
Moreover, it doesn't affect all life, everywhere in the galaxy for the rest of time.


Nobody agreed for suicide. Nobody is stupid enough to kill entire civilisations for some retarded ideals, Galaxy was fighting to SURVIVE the Reaper threat.

"We can choose 3 options where we all survive.... naah don't listen to the Catalyst, let's murder everyone"

Modifié par Solaxe, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .


#211
Memnon

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In both Synthesis and Control, the most dangerous and powerful war machines in the history of the galaxy are still alive. In one, they have free will and the other they're under Shepard's control - I'm not sure which one scares me more. If I play ME3 a hundred times, every time I'll pick the option that removes that threat from the galaxy ...

JohnZ117 wrote...

Somewhere in the middle, Shepard fixed the galaxy. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.


I miss Douglas Adams ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:02 .


#212
Thore2k10

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"what an idiot" ghostkid thinks "he jumped into a beam of energy just because i told him it would be the best solution. well, time to get back to killing the rest of galatic civilization" ^^

#213
Shaigunjoe

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JohnZ117 wrote...

Somewhere in the middle, Shepard fixed the galaxy. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.


QFT

Don't Panic

#214
v TricKy v

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Thore2k10 wrote...

"what an idiot" ghostkid thinks "he jumped into a beam of energy just because i told him it would be the best solution. well, time to get back to killing the rest of galatic civilization" ^^

That´s excactly what could have happened. I dont see why people dont understand this.

#215
Dharvy

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Romaka wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually Shepard DOES know they'll fail. Shepard throughout the ENTIRE GAME states the Crucible is their trump card, their last, best hope. The Catalyst states that you're outnumbered and expended almost all your resources, and the fact you have front row season pass tickets to the fleet getting smashed proves his point.

Shepard's speech when you refuse outright states "We'll die fighting." So even SHEPARD admits death is inevitable.

So yeah. The point STILL stands.

Picking an option has a chance of success

Doing nothing guarantees failure. There's no way around that logic.


I am not arguing against the fact that the Crucible is the hope of the galaxy as it has been written. Only that the choices that Shepard is given in order to use the Crucible is given by the enemy.  And simply that the enemy, by nature of being the enemy, could have been misleading Shepard.

Its true the catalyst could be lying, tryind to decieve you.

Simply put if people picked refuse because they were roleplaying their Shepard and couldn't trust the catalyst then most everyone understands, you're roleplaying, getting into your character and trying to play them a certain way. I dont' think no one have a problem with such, it makes sense. Refusing and costing the whole galaxy there lives because of some higher moral/egotistical/arrogant idealism is where people sort of cry foul, because you just forced your idealism, morals, ego, arrogantness on every single advanced life that is about to be reaped by the Reapers. And part of the reason the whole galaxy is even fighting the reapers, yes even to the death, is because they see no other way. What other choice do they have? The reapers is not going to stop killing them if they all of a sudden side with them. Indoctrinated people still die. The galaxy's only choice is sit and wait for death or give it their best shot an if they die at least they gave it their all. If the Salarians and the Turians inflicted the genophage to stop the Krogan, and the Quarians just got peace with the Geth and considering that the Geth had killed so many of the Quarians love ones I doubt they ALL no longer want the Geth to die, the Krogan have suffered enough with the Genophage stiffling there numbers, with all that I have a hard time seeing the galaxy as a whole rather die fighting then reaching some kind of compromise with the Reapers. At the vary least Destroy is the most likely galaxy's as a whole's choice.

#216
Welsh Inferno

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These threads are STILL cropping up..?

Synthesis is not a bad thing so:

Posted Image

#217
General User

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Not everyone loses in Synthesis. The Catalyst and it's Reapers do quite well. They've successfully reshaped the galaxy according to their will and in their image. That's quite the victory.

#218
AngryFrozenWater

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Welsh Inferno wrote...

These threads are STILL cropping up..?

Synthesis is not a bad thing so:

A macho Shepard is forcing utopia on everyone else? Wouldn't a macho think of the destroy option first? At least he wouldn't have to think hard. Oh! Maybe that was the problem? You didn't like that conclusion? Like you said: Deal with it.

#219
Memnon

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v TricKy v wrote...

Thore2k10 wrote...

"what an idiot" ghostkid thinks "he jumped into a beam of energy just because i told him it would be the best solution. well, time to get back to killing the rest of galatic civilization" ^^

That´s excactly what could have happened. I dont see why people dont understand this.


I thought the same thing also - if you set all meta-gaming aside and think about it. You've just met the entity which controls the enemy you have been fighting the entire trilogy. He tells you that you can save the galaxy, and all you need to do is kill yourself right there in front of him .... um. Right. So the leader of the entire galactic resistance, and one of the most influential people in the galaxy is just taken out of the equation because he trusted his enemy

#220
General User

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With the rosiest of rose coloured glasses on: the various organics and synthetic peoples who fought the Reapers may not have lost, but they can't really be said to have won (in the casino sense of the word) either. After all, except to the Catalyst, Synthesis doesn't offer anything that wasn't already available by other means.

Modifié par General User, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:49 .


#221
Grimwick

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RiouHotaru wrote...

People love to just take everything negatively don't they. Would it kill some of you to look at the bright side or the silver lining?


A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist.

Synthesis removes the gap of understanding between organics and synthetics:


I still reject the premise that:
1) This was the problem in the first place.
2) Removing this barrier will help. 

- Organics fear synthetics because of their technological superiority over biological systems.


Ummm... no. I don't know how you can state that with certainty when it's, y'know, speculation.

- Synthetics cannot comprehend the emotional process of humans. Things like loyalty, love, and self-sacrifice are alien to them, because they think in purely logical terms.


Why not? Oh right, you're making assumptions. Legion stated that he could identify with emotions. EDI has emotions. I don't see your evidence of this.

Synthesis bridges this gap by giving organics the technological advantages, and the synthetics gain the intimate understanding of the organic condition.


Pure speculation/gibberish/nonsense.

This would not prevent conflict in the slightest. I'd like to see your evidence of why this will help anybody. Conflict isn't all about misunderstandings...

#222
iamweaver

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For me, one of the biggest problems with the ending is not the choices themselves - which generate interesting threads like this. My problem is that the options are presented to us by an ambiguous character. This thread occasionally derails into that territory. There are any number of ways that the writers could have presented these three options to us from a more trusted source.

#223
Kel Riever

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What Synthesis means is, yes, all the fans and players of Mass Effect 3 who have to put up with it and all the other endings lose.

And then they, hopefully, get smart and refuse to buy BioWare products, basically because they know its feeding the Troll.

#224
Ieldra

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JohnZ117 wrote...
Somewhere in the middle, Shepard fixed the galaxy. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

:lol: QFT

#225
InHarmsWay

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Grimwick wrote...


- Synthetics cannot comprehend the emotional process of humans. Things like loyalty, love, and self-sacrifice are alien to them, because they think in purely logical terms.


Why not? Oh right, you're making assumptions. Legion stated that he could identify with emotions. EDI has emotions. I don't see your evidence of this.



Not to mention Legion sacrifices himself for the good of the many. So geth don't understand sacrifice?