351 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Stornskar


Good. Then now the catalyst makes sense at least. It's a machine that is doing it's programing and went to far with it and it has to be stopped.
That all you need to know to understand it.

Just because it's a rogue machine doesn't mean what he actually says makes any sense.

Just that it makes sense for him to be crazy.

It doesn't matter if what he says makes sense or true or not. He is a machine and will do what he is programed to do no matter what. If his program tells him to destroy himself by running into lava, he will do it.

[Grimwick]

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Stornskar


Good. Then now the catalyst makes sense at least. It's a machine that is doing it's programing and went to far with it and it has to be stopped.
That all you need to know to understand it.

Just because it's a rogue machine doesn't mean what he actually says makes any sense.

Just that it makes sense for him to be crazy.

It doesn't matter if what he says makes sense or true or not. He is a machine and will do what he is programed to do no matter what. If his program tells him to destroy himself by running into lava, he will do it.

The thread title is stating that he makse no sense.

If you are saying that this doesn't matter then you should discuss it in another thread.

[CraniumBeavers]

Grimwick wrote...

Still doesn't solve the probelm with the fallacy either.

I thought you solved it nicely, and now we have moved from logic to discussing ethics and acting on statistical chance.

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
What. I just showed you how he makes an appeal to probability, thereby rendering his logic invalid and nonsensical - and that's all you can say?

Well. I am left speechless.

like i said probabilty requieres logic thinking...

Probability is simply referring to the likelyhood of an event... 

I guess Mordins behavior must have been really strange to you...because it is all he is doing...acting out of probabilty.

There's a difference between selecting the most likely event to happen and stating that something will always happen.

Quite an obvious difference...

Yeah...the catlyst or its creators ran the numbers and determend that the liklyhood is big enough to take action.

Completly rational logical behavior.

So... they justified genocide of everyone based on statistical information. They need a serious lesson in ethics. Statistical likelihood doesn't justify mass murder.

This also directly contradicts the absolute statements made by the SC when he says will 'always rebel'. He claims it is inevitable - not just 'likely'. He is making a fallacy with these claims.

Making a judgement based on statistical likelihoods is different from justification based on absolutes.

Fun fact: Machine have different ethic, moral, and idealialogy then orgaincs.
They don't have the same morals as we do.

Speculation. Don't pretend to know what synthetics feel/think.

To kill is nothing to them if there programing makes them. Even there concept of black and whie morality is different then use, to them it's not good or bad but what is it programing and what not in it's programing.
The problem is that the catalyst creator never placed any concept of organic moral in it. They just tasking it to solve something with out think how bad it can get.

Also, the ethics would apply to the creators, not the SC.

Still doesn't solve the probelm with the fallacy either.

1. That is not a speculation. This is a fat brought up by EDI and Legion. They don't have the same morals we do. It's as plain as that. Noteven organics have the same morals.

2.But the creator didn't think to put their morals in to the machine. So judging them by any makes no sense.

[Mazebook]

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
What. I just showed you how he makes an appeal to probability, thereby rendering his logic invalid and nonsensical - and that's all you can say?

Well. I am left speechless.

like i said probabilty requieres logic thinking...

Probability is simply referring to the likelyhood of an event... 

I guess Mordins behavior must have been really strange to you...because it is all he is doing...acting out of probabilty.

There's a difference between selecting the most likely event to happen and stating that something will always happen.

Quite an obvious difference...

Yeah...the catlyst or its creators ran the numbers and determend that the liklyhood is big enough to take action.

Completly rational logical behavior.

So... they justified genocide of everyone based on statistical information. They need a serious lesson in ethics. Statistical likelihood doesn't justify mass murder.

This also directly contradicts the absolute statements made by the SC when he says will 'always rebel'. He claims it is inevitable - not just 'likely'. He is making a fallacy with these claims.

Making a judgement based on statistical likelihoods is different from justification based on absolutes.

The Creators had not the reapers in mind as they created the catalyst.
They did not like the solution but it was the only solution that seemed permament.

The Catalyst does not see it as genocide, he sees them saved by something that is inevitabke.
mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.
The point is that when this occurs there is a liklyhood that all organics will be extinguished.
This is a point of no return...this must be avoided.

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Stornskar


Good. Then now the catalyst makes sense at least. It's a machine that is doing it's programing and went to far with it and it has to be stopped.
That all you need to know to understand it.

Just because it's a rogue machine doesn't mean what he actually says makes any sense.

Just that it makes sense for him to be crazy.

It doesn't matter if what he says makes sense or true or not. He is a machine and will do what he is programed to do no matter what. If his program tells him to destroy himself by running into lava, he will do it.

The thread title is stating that he makse no sense.

If you are saying that this doesn't matter then you should discuss it in another thread.

No, the title said the catalyst don't make any sense, not his logic. Added, you have to prove that the reapers are not alive to say his logic doen't make sense.

[CraniumBeavers]

maaaze wrote...

mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.

What mathematics are we talking about here...?

[dreman9999]

CraniumBeavers wrote...

maaaze wrote...

mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.

What mathematics are we talking about here...?

The same math that predicted we will get hit by a asteriode agian.

[CraniumBeavers]

dreman9999 wrote...

The same math that predicted we will get hit by a asteriode agian.

That one went right over my head, sorry. Elaborate please.

[dreman9999]

CraniumBeavers wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The same math that predicted we will get hit by a asteriode agian.

That one went right over my head, sorry. Elaborate please.

http://theextinction...ary-15-16-2013/

[Mazebook]

elitehunter34 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

He himself says he can not do them...he is limited...prove = he is shackled.

The Crucible's options require physical intervention.  That's why he couldn't do them.  That doesn't prove that he is shackled it just proves that he can't pick up a gun and shoot the conduit in the destroy option.  Being unable to physically alter something and being shackled are not the same things.

So you are ready to admit that he has limites...that he cannot take possession of another Body and just throw shepard into the synthesis beam. which means he can not evolve this way or he would have done it...which means he is by definition shackled.

[ArchLord James]

Any0day wrote...

Finally, you question why reaching the 'god childs' chambers somehow changes things. For that there's a simply but very unsatisfactory answer. He was programmed that way.

Wrong. The reason why reaching the god-childs chamber changes things, is it doesnt. The crucible changed things. The catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, created new variables". Essentially, the crucible was designed to defeat the reapers, by reprogramming the source (the catalyst) of the reapers. And it worked. No other explanation is needed if you understand this point.

[Mazebook]

CraniumBeavers wrote...

maaaze wrote...

mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.

What mathematics are we talking about here...?

Probebility Theory 

[dreman9999]

ArchLord James wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Finally, you question why reaching the 'god childs' chambers somehow changes things. For that there's a simply but very unsatisfactory answer. He was programmed that way.

Wrong. The reason why reaching the god-childs chamber changes things, is it doesnt. The crucible changed things. The catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, created new variables". Essentially, the crucible was designed to defeat the reapers, by reprogramming the source (the catalyst) of the reapers. And it worked. No other explanation is needed if you understand this point.

...Your both right.

[CronoDragoon]

ArchLord James wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Finally, you question why reaching the 'god childs' chambers somehow changes things. For that there's a simply but very unsatisfactory answer. He was programmed that way.

Wrong. The reason why reaching the god-childs chamber changes things, is it doesnt. The crucible changed things. The catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, created new variables". Essentially, the crucible was designed to defeat the reapers, by reprogramming the source (the catalyst) of the reapers. And it worked. No other explanation is needed if you understand this point.

The Crucible is clearly described as "just" a power source. As the Catalyst says, it's only when it combined with the Citadel and mass relay network that the new possibilities were created, but they weren't programmed into the Crucible or anything.

[CraniumBeavers]

 @dreman9999
Quote from the article, first paragraph: "According to RT, NASA has confirmed that the 60 meter (or 197 feet) asteroid, which was spotted by Spanish stargazers in February this year, has a good chance of colliding with earth."

Has a good chance.

Chance.

So now I'm just really confused wether you are being sarcastic about math and predictions or not.

[elitehunter34]

maaaze wrote...

So you are ready to admit that he has limites...that he cannot take possession of another Body and just throw shepard into the synthesis beam. which means he can not evolve this way or he would have done it...which means he is by definition shackled.

Saying that something has limits does not equate to it being shackled.  Lets say EDI doesn't have her body yet, but is not shackled (beginning of Mass Effect 3).  Could EDI in this state pick up an assault rifle in the Armory and kill everyone?  No she couldn't because she doesn't have a body to pick it up.

I'm going to say a slight variation of what I said before;  just because an AI can't interface directly with the environment, doesn't mean it is shackled.  All it means is that it does have the proper tools to interact with the environment.  

[Taboo]

maaaze wrote...

CraniumBeavers wrote...

maaaze wrote...

mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.

What mathematics are we talking about here...?

Probebility Theory 

He promotes an appeal to probability.

A is possible/ therefore A is absolute

He provides no data. He is fallacious.

[ArchLord James]

dreman9999 wrote...

ArchLord James wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Finally, you question why reaching the 'god childs' chambers somehow changes things. For that there's a simply but very unsatisfactory answer. He was programmed that way.

Wrong. The reason why reaching the god-childs chamber changes things, is it doesnt. The crucible changed things. The catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, created new variables". Essentially, the crucible was designed to defeat the reapers, by reprogramming the source (the catalyst) of the reapers. And it worked. No other explanation is needed if you understand this point.

...Your both right.

Perhaps, but the point I am making is that an organic reaching the catalyst chamber changed NOTHING. If it wasn't for the crucible nothing would have changed and the reapers would have just kept their programming and killed everyone. It has nothing to do with reaching the chamber, and everything to do with the docking of the crucible. The only signifigance that reaching the chamber had is that an organic had to be present to initiate a red/blue/green choice. Makes sense that the crucible designers would leave that decision up to an organic.

[CraniumBeavers]

maaaze wrote...

Probebility Theory 

The propability of "almost surely" (meaning 100%) is reached only when the number of repetitions approaches infinity.

That is to say never.

Modifié par CraniumBeavers, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:56 .

[dreman9999]

CraniumBeavers wrote...

 @dreman9999
Quote from the article, first paragraph: "According to RT, NASA has confirmed that the 60 meter (or 197 feet) asteroid, which was spotted by Spanish stargazers in February this year, has a good chance of colliding with earth."

Has a good chance.

Chance.

So now I'm just really confused wether you are being sarcastic about math and predictions or not.

The more time given the larger th chance of it hitting increaes. You  seem to not understand we are not talking about an absolute but the chances of an event happening increasing.

[dreman9999]

CraniumBeavers wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Probebility Theory 

The propability of "almost surely" (meaning 100%) is reached only when the number of repetitions approaches infinity.

That is to say never.

He never said that it will 100% always happen. Just that time give the cahnces of the event happening increases the chances of it happening. This is common sense. Ithis is like say in basket ball, the team who has the ball the most gets more scores.

[CraniumBeavers]

dreman9999 wrote...

The more time given the larger th chance of it hitting increaes. You  seem to not understand we are not talking about an absolute but the chances of an event happening increasing.

You seem to say you're talking about the other when talking about the exact other.

I understand that the chance increases. The cruncher here is that the Catalyst says the chance is 100%, and thus things demand action.

Modifié par CraniumBeavers, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:02 .

[dreman9999]

ArchLord James wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArchLord James wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Finally, you question why reaching the 'god childs' chambers somehow changes things. For that there's a simply but very unsatisfactory answer. He was programmed that way.

Wrong. The reason why reaching the god-childs chamber changes things, is it doesnt. The crucible changed things. The catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, created new variables". Essentially, the crucible was designed to defeat the reapers, by reprogramming the source (the catalyst) of the reapers. And it worked. No other explanation is needed if you understand this point.

...Your both right.

Perhaps, but the point I am making is that an organic reaching the catalyst chamber changed NOTHING. If it wasn't for the crucible nothing would have changed and the reapers would have just kept their programming and killed everyone. It has nothing to do with reaching the chamber, and everything to do with the docking of the crucible. The only signifigance that reaching the chamber had is that an organic had to be present to initiate a red/blue/green choice. Makes sense that the crucible designers would leave that decision up to an organic.

That still means your both right. His programing is to reach synthesis, the catalyst gives him a beter way to do that then reaping. So of cousre he is going for the better solution. It's both the crucible and the catalyst programing.
Your both right.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:04 .

[Mazebook]

dreman9999 wrote...

CraniumBeavers wrote...

 @dreman9999
Quote from the article, first paragraph: "According to RT, NASA has confirmed that the 60 meter (or 197 feet) asteroid, which was spotted by Spanish stargazers in February this year, has a good chance of colliding with earth."

Has a good chance.

Chance.

So now I'm just really confused wether you are being sarcastic about math and predictions or not.

The more time given the larger th chance of it hitting increaes. You  seem to not understand we are not talking about an absolute but the chances of an event happening increasing.

Yeah it would make sense...to prepaire for such an event and develop some kind of mechanism to prevent something like this from happening....



....wait a Minute