Aller au contenu

Photo

The catalyst just makes no sense


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
351 réponses à ce sujet

#151
memorysquid

memorysquid
  • Members
  • 681 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

LateNightSalami wrote...

pacientK wrote...

Good read. Also what i dont understand... why have those stupid choices at the end. Trilogy should be ended depending on choices made through all three games.


Could not agree with you more. Not sure why there was a "final choice". We were both implicitly and explicitly promised wildly differring endings that were based on our choices throughout the series. This "final choice" in it's own non-sense renders those choices almost completely meaningless. There is no culmination of what we accomplished. All is thrown out the window in favor of the final scenario that seems to have little bearing on what we had expereinced for the last 100 hours.


Because it is a video game and they wanted a final dilemma that would be applicable to new players?  Ever read the Road to Ithaca?

How is a game with no straight happy ending appealing to new players?


Torment was a one shot and I loved it.  You don't need a "happy" ending to be appealing.  Not saying they did a good job of that here.

#152
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

memorysquid wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It was not he who dicided that the synthetic /organic conflict need to be stopped. Why demand that he prove it?


You could wonder why he decided such immediate and drastic action was warranted.  Something would have to happen that convinced him further attempts at mediation were pointless - that's where the proof would come in.  He didn't simply immediately decide to go the Reaper route.

The event was that the other solutions failed. A machine doesn't pick the most moral route, but the one that solves it's problem the best way.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:30 .


#153
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

memorysquid wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

LateNightSalami wrote...

pacientK wrote...

Good read. Also what i dont understand... why have those stupid choices at the end. Trilogy should be ended depending on choices made through all three games.


Could not agree with you more. Not sure why there was a "final choice". We were both implicitly and explicitly promised wildly differring endings that were based on our choices throughout the series. This "final choice" in it's own non-sense renders those choices almost completely meaningless. There is no culmination of what we accomplished. All is thrown out the window in favor of the final scenario that seems to have little bearing on what we had expereinced for the last 100 hours.


Because it is a video game and they wanted a final dilemma that would be applicable to new players?  Ever read the Road to Ithaca?

How is a game with no straight happy ending appealing to new players?


Torment was a one shot and I loved it.  You don't need a "happy" ending to be appealing.  Not saying they did a good job of that here.

But it did have a appeal to casual players. Really , how is a game that ends with nihilism is focused on the COD crowd?

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:29 .


#154
memorysquid

memorysquid
  • Members
  • 681 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Well if you think ten thousand years is a long time span than you just proven my point...it is not even half of one cycle.


It isn't my right to interfere past stopping the opposing force.

We also have TEN THOUSAND years to work towards Synthesis, which the Catalyst states WILL happen.


You keep trying to squeeze past that dilemma.  You don't even have the right to stop the opposing force.  Who would grant you that right at the cost of, for instance, genocide?  Almost every BIG decision Shepard undertakes in the entire game has potentially galaxy spanning consequences.  What does Shepard say to Hackett when he mentions the possible consequences of curing the genophage?  "I made my decision; not much anyone can do about it now."  Who gave Shepard the right to cure it?  Who gave Shepard the right to free the Rachni queen?  Who gave Shepard the right to blow up 300K Batarians to slow down the Reapers?

This is the crux of the game.  In emergency situations, informed consent from all interested parties isn't practical, maybe not even desirable.  You simply decide based on your ethics and then act.

#155
memorysquid

memorysquid
  • Members
  • 681 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

The event was that the other solutions failed. A machine doesn't pick the most moral route, but the one that solves it's problem the best way.


Right but how many attempts mean that method X [non-reaping] is a failure?

#156
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

memorysquid wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Well if you think ten thousand years is a long time span than you just proven my point...it is not even half of one cycle.


It isn't my right to interfere past stopping the opposing force.

We also have TEN THOUSAND years to work towards Synthesis, which the Catalyst states WILL happen.


You keep trying to squeeze past that dilemma.  You don't even have the right to stop the opposing force.  Who would grant you that right at the cost of, for instance, genocide?  Almost every BIG decision Shepard undertakes in the entire game has potentially galaxy spanning consequences.  What does Shepard say to Hackett when he mentions the possible consequences of curing the genophage?  "I made my decision; not much anyone can do about it now."  Who gave Shepard the right to cure it?  Who gave Shepard the right to free the Rachni queen?  Who gave Shepard the right to blow up 300K Batarians to slow down the Reapers?

This is the crux of the game.  In emergency situations, informed consent from all interested parties isn't practical, maybe not even desirable.  You simply decide based on your ethics and then act.

Exactly. The concept of the game is what length you would go to stop an unstople force. It's to brign the player to moral conflict via choices.

#157
memorysquid

memorysquid
  • Members
  • 681 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

But it did have a appeal to casual players. Really , how is a game that ends with nihilism is focused on the COD crowd?


It's not nihilism; it isn't even realism or naturalism.  It is a [heavily biased] trade off between self-interest and altruism.  He doesn't lose no matter what - the galaxy doesn't grind on indifferently.

#158
Mazebook

Mazebook
  • Members
  • 1 524 messages

memorysquid wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Well if you think ten thousand years is a long time span than you just proven my point...it is not even half of one cycle.


It isn't my right to interfere past stopping the opposing force.

We also have TEN THOUSAND years to work towards Synthesis, which the Catalyst states WILL happen.


You keep trying to squeeze past that dilemma.  You don't even have the right to stop the opposing force.  Who would grant you that right at the cost of, for instance, genocide?  Almost every BIG decision Shepard undertakes in the entire game has potentially galaxy spanning consequences.  What does Shepard say to Hackett when he mentions the possible consequences of curing the genophage?  "I made my decision; not much anyone can do about it now."  Who gave Shepard the right to cure it?  Who gave Shepard the right to free the Rachni queen?  Who gave Shepard the right to blow up 300K Batarians to slow down the Reapers?

This is the crux of the game.  In emergency situations, informed consent from all interested parties isn't practical, maybe not even desirable.  You simply decide based on your ethics and then act.


well said...!

#159
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages
Do not strawman.

I don't have the right to do much of anything. I don't see why you think I'm trying to justify what I've done. I made the decision based upon the least long term affect on the galaxy. The Reapers need to be stopped, and all the endings do this.

What was it Kant said?

"See people as an end, not as a means to an end only."

Only Destroy has the relevance to both stopping the Reapers and preventing further interference. The Destroy ending to me works because I use my established principles and suffer for it.

Art and all that. ART.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .


#160
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

memorysquid wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The event was that the other solutions failed. A machine doesn't pick the most moral route, but the one that solves it's problem the best way.


Right but how many attempts mean that method X [non-reaping] is a failure?

That I don't know, but I don't think that matters. All that matter is that we stop him now.

#161
dreman9999

dreman9999
  • Members
  • 19 067 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do not strawman.

I don't have the right to do much of anything. I don't see why you think I'm trying to justify what I've done. I made the decision based upon the least long term affect on the galaxy. The Reapers need to be stopped, and all the endings do this.

What was it Kant said?

"See people as an end, not as a means to an end only."

Only Destroy has the relevance to both stopping the Reapers and preventing further interference. The Destroy ending to me works because I use my established principles and suffer for it.

Art and all that. ART.

Who said your wrong for choosing this? You statement is the very thing he said. You have the choose based on what is on hand and your beliefs. That's all he is saying. You have to pick exteme choice because you are given the choices.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:40 .


#162
Siansonea

Siansonea
  • Members
  • 7 282 messages
The Catalyst makes no sense, eh? You don't say.

#163
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

dreman9999 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do not strawman.

I don't have the right to do much of anything. I don't see why you think I'm trying to justify what I've done. I made the decision based upon the least long term affect on the galaxy. The Reapers need to be stopped, and all the endings do this.

What was it Kant said?

"See people as an end, not as a means to an end only."

Only Destroy has the relevance to both stopping the Reapers and preventing further interference. The Destroy ending to me works because I use my established principles and suffer for it.

Art and all that. ART.

Who said your wrong for choosing this? You statement is the very thing he said. You have the choose based on what is on hand and your beliefs. That's all he is saying. You have to pick exteme choice because you are given the choices.


I believe I am wrong for having to choose it. People assume that I choose Destroy because I want to live. I have nothing against Synthetics. I am a monster for choosing my ending. But I can take responsibility for it.

It's the principle for me you see, the prevention of interference.

#164
Grimwick

Grimwick
  • Members
  • 2 250 messages

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
What. I just showed you how he makes an appeal to probability, thereby rendering his logic invalid and nonsensical - and that's all you can say?

Well. I am left speechless.


like i said probabilty requieres logic thinking...


Probability is simply referring to the likelyhood of an event... 

I guess Mordins behavior must have been really strange to you...because it is all he is doing...acting out of probabilty.


There's a difference between selecting the most likely event to happen and stating that something will always happen.

Quite an obvious difference...


Yeah...the catlyst or its creators ran the numbers and determend that the liklyhood is big enough to take action.

Completly rational logical behavior.


So... they justified genocide of everyone based on statistical information. They need a serious lesson in ethics. Statistical likelihood doesn't justify mass murder.

This also directly contradicts the absolute statements made by the SC when he says will 'always rebel'. He claims it is inevitable - not just 'likely'. He is making a fallacy with these claims.

Making a judgement based on statistical likelihoods is different from justification based on absolutes.


The Creators had not the reapers in mind as they created the catalyst.
They did not like the solution but it was the only solution that seemed permament.


You claim the AI is shackled. Seemingly contrasting data here.

The Catalyst does not see it as genocide, he sees them saved by something that is inevitabke.
mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.
The point is that when this occurs there is a liklyhood that all organics will be extinguished.
This is a point of no return...this must be avoided.


Straw man.

#165
Grimwick

Grimwick
  • Members
  • 2 250 messages

memorysquid wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Coming up with the Catalyst was VERY bad idea. He makes sense, but that doesn't mean I like that idea. There shouldn't have been anything above the Reapers. He just complicated things and made them look like stupid pawns.


No he doesn't.

I don't think people realise the extent to which his appeal to probability invalidates the entire logic of his arguments.


I don't because it doesn't.  If something is 99% probable, that warrants action, which is fine enough.  Who knows however this fictional character is supposed to tabulate probability, but there is little in the game to suggest that he might not simply be correct, that organic eradication simply is inevitable or close enough to it to warrant drastic action.

The ME universe is one in which the Catalyst can reliably predict with close to certain accuracy that organics will be wiped out.  Now let's discuss the ethics of the decisions therein, rather than carping over which fallacies of logic the writers may have indulged.


Then you don't understand what the term appeal to probability actually means.

Look it up.

#166
LateNightSalami

LateNightSalami
  • Members
  • 111 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

Art and all that. ART.


I loled.

#167
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

LateNightSalami wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Art and all that. ART.


I loled.


I do to.

Let me tell you about depressing art.

In a few months a French film called The Devil, Probably is going to be released. Watch that. **** me that is depressing.

Also, you need to watch some films by Oshima. That **** is also depressing. 

Moral of his films?

"Fight the system all you want, they'll still **** you over."

#168
Mazebook

Mazebook
  • Members
  • 1 524 messages

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
What. I just showed you how he makes an appeal to probability, thereby rendering his logic invalid and nonsensical - and that's all you can say?

Well. I am left speechless.


like i said probabilty requieres logic thinking...


Probability is simply referring to the likelyhood of an event... 

I guess Mordins behavior must have been really strange to you...because it is all he is doing...acting out of probabilty.


There's a difference between selecting the most likely event to happen and stating that something will always happen.

Quite an obvious difference...


Yeah...the catlyst or its creators ran the numbers and determend that the liklyhood is big enough to take action.

Completly rational logical behavior.


So... they justified genocide of everyone based on statistical information. They need a serious lesson in ethics. Statistical likelihood doesn't justify mass murder.

This also directly contradicts the absolute statements made by the SC when he says will 'always rebel'. He claims it is inevitable - not just 'likely'. He is making a fallacy with these claims.

Making a judgement based on statistical likelihoods is different from justification based on absolutes.


The Creators had not the reapers in mind as they created the catalyst.
They did not like the solution but it was the only solution that seemed permament.


You claim the AI is shackled. Seemingly contrasting data here.

The Catalyst does not see it as genocide, he sees them saved by something that is inevitabke.
mathematics dictate that when something is likly it will in given time occur.
The point is that when this occurs there is a liklyhood that all organics will be extinguished.
This is a point of no return...this must be avoided.


Straw man.


1.oh man..for once stay with what has been discussed before...he is shackled in the sense he can not do other things than finding a solution and executing it... it can not deviate from his task...The crucible has changed him so he can now deviate...he knows now Synthesis will eventually happen.
No matter if Shepard will choose it or not...he has fullfilled his porpose. 

2. It is the reasoning of a computer...and the reasoning of a computer is logic (expressed by his given task and variables).
     if you can´t accept that as an fact ...then well...the ending just did go over you head...and there is nothing more to say.

Modifié par maaaze, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:22 .


#169
Any0day

Any0day
  • Members
  • 152 messages

memorysquid wrote...
You keep trying to squeeze past that dilemma.  You don't even have the right to stop the opposing force.  Who would grant you that right at the cost of, for instance, genocide?  Almost every BIG decision Shepard undertakes in the entire game has potentially galaxy spanning consequences.  What does Shepard say to Hackett when he mentions the possible consequences of curing the genophage?  "I made my decision; not much anyone can do about it now."  Who gave Shepard the right to cure it?  Who gave Shepard the right to free the Rachni queen?  Who gave Shepard the right to blow up 300K Batarians to slow down the Reapers?

This is the crux of the game.  In emergency situations, informed consent from all interested parties isn't practical, maybe not even desirable.  You simply decide based on your ethics and then act.


Probably a good representation of what the catalyst is doing in away...

Anyway, a lot of people feel the catalyst is being fallacious so I'm going to go over exactly what he says, line by line.
I'm not writing any of this, this is simply a paragraphed representation of the catalysts speach.

Catalyst wrote...
The Citadel. It's my home. I am the Catalyst. The Citadel is part of me. I control the Reapers. They are my solution to chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators, but we found a way to stop that from happening, a way to restore order. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form. Without us to stop it, Synthetics would destroy all Organics.  We've created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution.

[I am] a construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance by ones who recognized that conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics. [I am an AI] in as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers. I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life.. to establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required. 

The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose. [My creators] became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution. Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable. Reapers harvest all life--organic and synthetic--preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict. 

When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? or is it simply doing what it was created to do? You may be in conflict with the Reapers, but they are not interested in war. We are no different. We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new Reaper. Like a cleansing fire, we restore balance. New life, both organic and synthetic, can once again flourish.

The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design. You would not know [the designers of the crucible], and there is not enough time to explain. We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago. Wth each passing cycle, the design has no doubt evolved. We believed the concept had been eradicated. Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized.

You have choice. More than you know. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it, but it also proves my solution won't work anymore. You have altered the variables. We [can] find a new solution. The Crucible changed me, created new... possibilities. But I can't make them happen. If there is to be a new solution, you must act.

It is now in your power to destroy us, but be warned: others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic... Your crucible devices appears to be largely intact. However, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty in repairing the damage. There will still be losses, but no more than what has already been lost, but the peace won't last. Soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back.

You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers. [The illusive man was right], but he could never have taken control, because we already controlled him. You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have. Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts and even your memories, will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existence. We will be yours to control and direct as you see fit.

There is another solution. Synthesis. Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA. Your organic energy, the essence of who and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed. The energy of the crucible, released in this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. 

Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics. It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis. We have tried... a similar solution in the past, but it has always failed because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready. And you may choose it.Synthetics are already part of you. Can you imagine your life without them? The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us. Synthesis is the final evolution of all life.


So essentially, if anyone is at fault here it would be the creators of the Catalyst. It would be as if I created an AI today, like IBM's Watson or something, plugged in all the variables and gave it all the information... and I said to it "Give me a solution to permenantly solve world hunger and conflict."
The easiest solution to that problem would be... kill everyone. 
Anyone with half a brain realizes that the question is the problem, not the solution. You can't  have absolute peace throughout the galaxy unless there isn't anyone left to fight. Actually now that I think about it, the Catalyst probably had a nicer solution because the logical solution should have been to wipe out all life, destroy the galaxy, and kill themselves.

Modifié par Any0day, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .


#170
Karimloo

Karimloo
  • Members
  • 1 197 messages
DOES FIRE HAVE CONFLICT??!~!!# OR DOES IT DO WHAT IT DO?!!

No, but it isn't ****ing sentient either. Reapers and Organics and Synthetics are sentient to a point where they can refuse their "programming" in favour of either ; Morals, Better Program options, etc.

In I,Robot, Sunny refuses VICKI by saying "I understand your logic, it's just too, heartless".

Reapers are evolved beyond EDI and the Geth, they must, have to, understand organic motive. They can't be oblivious to it because they were once organic. They would not have ever gone with their motive of attacking organics even in ME1 and ME2 if the logic of the Catalyst existed then.

More realistically, they want to wipe us out because they want to wipe us out, they do not CARE about saving or restoring an organic race as the Catalyst. My idea would have been they just want to make more Reapers, feed themselves. An iconic villain. Not some ****ing misunderstood hero.

#171
CraniumBeavers

CraniumBeavers
  • Members
  • 48 messages

Karimloo wrote...

More realistically, they want to wipe us out because they want to wipe us out, they do not CARE about saving or restoring an organic race as the Catalyst. My idea would have been they just want to make more Reapers, feed themselves. An iconic villain. Not some ****ing misunderstood hero.


/agree

Cool villains don't have to be complicated. 

#172
memorysquid

memorysquid
  • Members
  • 681 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do not strawman.

I don't have the right to do much of anything. I don't see why you think I'm trying to justify what I've done. I made the decision based upon the least long term affect on the galaxy. The Reapers need to be stopped, and all the endings do this.

What was it Kant said?

"See people as an end, not as a means to an end only."

Only Destroy has the relevance to both stopping the Reapers and preventing further interference. The Destroy ending to me works because I use my established principles and suffer for it.

Art and all that. ART.


Unlike Kant I don't view the sublime as suffering or think you know your duty from not wanting to do it.

You are trying to justify it, just not by some typical morality.  Which is fine.  I just don't think the "doctrine of least effect" is necessarily a good one, nor is it even necessarily the case here.  The Geth are affected for good in Destroy and who knows what the possible long term ramifications of that would be?  Plus there's the vaguely mentioned collateral damage caused by the galactic EMP you unleash.  My only point is that there is a trade off of values involved here, and it would be cool to identify those values, rather than dodging the primary dilemma. 

You really can't avoid affecting the universe, so a better value criterion might be, for instance, increasing utility.

#173
ArchLord James

ArchLord James
  • Members
  • 162 messages

CronoDragoon wrote...

ArchLord James wrote...

TLDR: It is pretty clear that red and blue are contradicting the catalysts prime directive, and it would never willingly submit to these options without force. The crucible is more than a power source.


Hard to say, since we are never told what his prime directive is. We know the original action the directive spurred was mediating peace between organics and synthetics, which then become Reaper-izing them.

If the prime directive is "prevent war between synthetics and organics at all costs" then this fits mediation, Reapers, Destroy/Control/Synthesis. He clearly does not believe Destroy and Control will work like he believes Synthesis will work, but that's the same as getting three options to solve a computer problem with one of them having (Recommended) next to it.


We know what his prime directive is because he tells us "to be the catalyst of peace between organics and synthetics." However, the AI decided that the best way to mediate this peace was to turn organics into synthetics (the reapers). So tell me how does the catalyst think that RED accomplishes his goal of mediating peace when he says himself "but the peace wont last, soon your children will build synthetics. . ." How does a power source motivate a sentience, or even a non-sentient AI (if you choose to see him that way), to give up on its solution AND commit suicide. The reapers are suddenly gonna let organics live, and let them build synthetics, and destroy themselves, and why? Because of a simply power source?

And for blue it is essentially the same without destroying the reapers. They relinquish full control to an organic being. To do this they would have to be forced or willingly abandoning their previous objectives. And why? Because of a power source? I think when the catalyst says "the crucible changed me; it created new variables" It is talking about 2 separate things. The power source created new variables, but the change he refers to isn't simply about available power and expanded capabilities. It is change in his core objectives otherwise since red and blue are complete abandonments of its previous goals.

#174
Dharvy

Dharvy
  • Members
  • 741 messages
 @Any0day You complete narrative of the Catalyst puts somethings into perspective.

After reading everything the Catalyst said it does in a way makes sense. For the people becrying the probability and how the catalyst's absolute of it will always end in conflict. Well it said, and I quote: 


"I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life.. to establish a connection. But our efforts ALWAYS ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

We don't know how many times always is, nor how long the Catalyst cycle was going on, nor the repeat times the conflict broke out before a solution was required. And considering conflict did break out between the Geth and Quarians and the Quarians was nearly wiped out, saved only by the Geth not being able to reach a consensus with the ramifications of extincting their creators. And a solutions only seems to come about centuries later because Shepard needs one or both of there help against another threat, the Reapers themselves, almost implying that had the Reapers nor Shepard not been there the conflict would have resulted in extinction for one of the two races.

And again another quote: 

"Reapers harvest all life--organic and synthetic--preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict."

As I said in another thread if the organic vs synthetic conflict comes to completeness and organics are wiped out and forever lost to said conflict, thats like an organic delete. The Reapers are harvesting organic/synthetics, preserving them if you will, so that there death is not a delete but instead a back up. And then in the likelyhood of the Synthesis where organics fully integrate with synthetics/technology through their advancement (a simply likelyhood because technology exist to better our lives and the more advance the tech, the better our lives seem to become or hence the need/desire for inventions) the Catalyst states:

"and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

And as an attempt at an analogy say you have a field of plants that have life saving properties that only can grow in that field and a fire is coming to wipe out the field and the plant, and you would do a form of reaping to preserve the plant and find a way to store it and its properties so that the fire would not destroy it completely even though you took the plant from its natural habitat/existence and placed it in an artificial construct to keep its properties/information viable.

Simply put it does makes sense its just with human/organic emotions come into play and everyone seems to see things irrationally. The only thing that can be said is "you can't harvest us like we're some kind of plant" to which a hard logical AI says "why not, I must save the data?"

"Passion rules reason, for better or for worse. " -Wizards third rule. :devil:

Also, just to add, although it says the Crucible is little more than a power source, it also states that the Crucible changes it:

"You have altered the variables. We [can] find a new solution. The Crucible changed me, created new... possibilities. But I can't make them happen. If there is to be a new solution, you must act."

So the little more than Power Source is little enough that it changed the catalyst and its variables and gave it new possibilities that wasn't in its original design/programming hence the option for Destroy/Control/Synthesis.

It all makes sense. Just have to think outside the box a bit.:P

#175
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 413 messages

ArchLord James wrote...

We know what his prime directive is because he tells us "to be the catalyst of peace between organics and synthetics."


That is why he was created. His prime directive is the specific logical wording they programmed into him. And as we know from rogue AI in many different stories, wording is everything. We don't know exactly what his prime directive is.

I came into this kind of late, but if you are trying to handwave the statement that the Crucible is only an energy source...you can't. It's a direct line from the game, from someone who would know. Now, if we are just showing that there is evidence both ways, I agree.