26 réponses à ce sujet

[The Potty 1]

 Just read Grond0's thread on his solo no-reload real-time speedruns of BG1, modded with SCS. His best was 87 mins and 11 kills with a halfling fighter/thief.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/181/index/8358354 

My current game's bogged down by trolls, and I've played the early quests so often, and reached ToB so seldom, that I'm inspired to try a lightning run of BG2. Speed's not really my thing, and neither is no-reloads, so I'm planning a solo no-sidequests minimal-reloads minimal-kills run. If anyone feels like joining, great, and you probably have a fair chance of beating me because I'm too ADD to be really OCD about this 

Solo minimal-reloads needs no explanation.

No-sidequests means, you may not do a quest that does not directly get you closer to killing Irenecus. This also rules out watcher's keep and the city of caverns. You may complete the ust-natha quests or simply exit via the west tunnels as you prefer. You may wander about within any area you are in, visit any shops, break into houses, steal and pickpocket etc, but the clock is ticking.

Minimal-kills is harder, because I'm not sure which kills are avoidable. You may of course kill anyone at any time, if your meta-gaming skills tell you they have some sweet gear. However the lowest final kill score wins, and to a lesser extent so does the lowest XP.

Like Grond0 I'm also planning to use a halfling fighter/thief as this is hands down my favorite class, but just about any build with access to stealth could probably do this. These would obviously include thieves & rangers, but also mages, bards, & clerics.

The final measures of success in order of importance are lowest number of reloads, lowest number of kills, lowest gametime, and lowest XP. I shan't bother to measure realtime, but expect it to be low. My current install has Ascension, SCS2 with nerfed mages, rogue rebalancing, Ding0's Def Jam XP reducer, and parts of Tactics installed. The XP reducer gives me a slight advantage on XP, but it's mostly on spells and traps, so not that much, and I also have a heap of tactical mods which mean I'll probably die horribly.

In order to avoid quest temptation while earning the 15k gold needed to get to spellhold, this money may be cheated in at the start, as can Bag04. I was tempted to give 20k so you could pay Gaelan Bayle when you first meet him, but this gives a cash advantage to people who side with Bhodi. On my last no-sidequest run I sided with Bhodi, as thieves have no way of protecting themselves from level drain, and I probably will again, unless the rogue rebalancing shop adds something. I'll probably also be good-aligned so I can use Azureedge.

I took this walkthrough as a basis:
mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/walkthrough.html 

Modifié par The Potty 1, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:19 .

[The Potty 1]

Where I say 'get' I mean try to pickpocket them and kill them if you fail.

Take the Activation Stone from the table near Rielev.
Use the Activation Stone to control the Sewer Golem.
Enter Irenicus' mistriss' chamber just beyond the dryads and take the Portal Key.
Leave the dungeon.
Go to the slums and meet Gaelan Bayle.
Shop and sleep etc until night, when Valen should approach you.
Side with either Gaelan Bayle or with Bodhi.

Shadow thieves (5 kills).
Meet Aran Linvail.
Meet Mook, kill Lassal.
Meet Jaylos and Caehan, kill them and the guild contact.
Meet Haz, kill Lassal, stake Lassal, fight Bhodi.

Vampires (1 kill).
Get Mook's shipment.
Hero's rescue Palern Flynn, others place the dagger in Vulova's fountain.
Get Gaelan Bayle's key.
You may need to get Booter's key to free Tizzak.
Push the red button.
Get Haz's key.
Kill Aran Linvail.

Leave for Brynnlaw.
Enter Lady Galvena's Festhall.
Speak to Claire.
Convince Desharik that you are unstable, or get Perth the Adept's wardstone.
Enter the asylum.
Kill Bhaal.
Enter spellhold.
Get Kurtulmak's Crystal Shard.
Kill and stake Dace Sontan for the Hand of Dace.
Talk to the statue to get to the next area.
Take the south passage and take the Minotaur Horn.
Turn to the slayer and fight Bodhi.
I plan to get the boots of speed here.
Get the other Minotaur Horn and go to the next area.
Complete the tests.
Convince Lonk the Sane to release the inmates.
Return to the upper level, and get Irenicus's key.
Use the key to open the door and enter the portal.

You may kill the drow in the west tunnels and leave the underdark if you wish.
Otherwise speak to the Svirfneblin leader Goldander Blackenrock.
Kill the Balor.
Meet Adalon, enter Ust Natha, talk to Solaufein.
Leave the city, I plan to get the elemental halberd at this point.
Speak to Solaufein, kill the Mind Flayers.
Meet Phaere, kill the Beholder.
Spare the gnome patrol.
Spare Solaufein.
Get some blood from a noble race.
The Elder Orb involves the fewest kills, as both other races see through invisibility.
Actually I may have set illithid not to see through stealth, hmm...
Complete the egg quest.
Return to Adalon.
Exit the Underdark.
Return to Athkatla.
You may accept help from Drizzt, Aran Livail and/or Prelate Wessalen.
Enter the Vampire lair.
Defeat and stake Bodhi.
Return to Elhan with the Rhynn Lanthorn.
Enter Suldanessellar.
Talk to Demin.
Get the Talisman of Rillifane, the Moonblade, and the Golden Goblet of Life.
Summon the Avatar of Rillifane.
Get the Stone Horn and Harp.
Gather the nuts from the tree.
Kill the parasites on the tree of life.
Kill Irenicus.
Complete the quests in hell.
I may take Blackrazor at this point.
Kill Irenicus again.

ToB is much more linear, and I may never even get there, so I'll take that as it comes.

[The Potty 1]

Rolled Smoke the halfling fighter/thief with 17/19/18/16/10/10. Cheated BAG04 and 15k gold.

One die/reload so far, I snuck past the memphit portals, tried to open the door, and found that it won't open until the portals are dead. The memphits then mobbed me and I couldn't reach the portals. I reloaded, and thought I'd hosed this attempt too because a memphit spotted me as I opened the door. I hid, and they all ran into the Yoshimo room. I snuck past them, closed the door, tried to leave, and finally killed the portals, which unlocked the doors.

So, 4 kills from the portals, plus I had to kill the mineral memphit next to the sewer golem, because there was a group of tactics thugs outside so I couldn't activate the golem then run and hide.

I left the dungeon, convinced Leithan to let me see the back rooms, stole the gloves of pickpocketing, and left. I slugged a potion of thievery, pickpocketed Ribald, and then stole everything I could from every merchant I could find. One of my mods allows an INT/WIS/Lore check if you fail a steal, so this is relatively safe. The 80 arrows of dispelling alone make it a worthwhile risk. Flush with 35k gold, I bought Aeger's Hide +3, but still need a weapon.

I've got 5* in short swords, but I'm really struggling to find any weapons worth using, and specifically I need a +3 weapon to take out the Balor. In desperation I pickpocketed Renal, failed, and had to reload. The only other short sword I can think of is the short sword of the mask, but cannot justify visiting watcher's keep. I may shadowkeep that to 5* in staves and buy a generic +3 staff, or take the long view and go for long swords with an eye on Blackrazor. How critical is it that I can use blunt weapons on a min-kill run? Apart from the two golems defending the gesen string, and I'll first see if I can access the tanner building for the shaft without the quest. Long swords are probably the way to go, I could blow a save trying to loot Daystar and fleeing, or I could use a drow blade to take out the Balor. I can't get the blade of roses or Azureedge because I can't free Hendak.

The Suna ambush was quite liberating, I was stealthed, and simply walked away. I know I threw away Arbane's sword but it's only +2. Valen contacted me at about midday, I thought she would only come at night. I'll probably side with Bhodi, although Arledrian's dagger from rogue rebalancing offers a viable vampire defence. I'll probably have to kill him to get it. I'll probably kill Renal as well, for his shortsword.

EDIT I'm currently wielding a rogue rebalancing cosh, which allows a nonlethal knockout. I feel like I'm playing Deus Ex with the no-kill rule. Haven't actually used it yet.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 11 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .

[angiras108]

An interesting challenge. I am thinking about joining you.

A couple of alternate strategies for the Underdark.

1. You can kill Goldander Blackenrock for the stone to enter Adalon's lair, and maybe you can pickpocket it from him (not sure). At any rate, you do not need to kill the Balor in the Underdark.

2. To get out of the Underdark, an alternative exit strategy for a thief would involve stealing the real dragon eggs from the temple (right after shopping and meeting with Soulafein and Phaere for the first time) and then running in stealth back to the dragon, who will help you escape from the Underdark by killing most of the drow at the exit. This strategy may require fewer kills and less experience than other strategies.

[angiras108]

I have been thinking about joining you, but first I wanted to discuss some general principles.

The no-reload challenge, the minimal reload challenge, Grond0's BG1 speed runs, Frabjous's BG1 no-kill run, and your no side quest challenge are variations on the same theme: How to keep a beloved single player game interesting and challenging after countless times playing through it.

I have been involved in other gaming communities that have developed similar challenges. However, these are often couched in the form of single player tournaments, which impose certain restrictions on game play along with an appropriate scoring system. This encourages a mild spirit of competition based upon an honor system.

For example, the timed result of Grond0's speed runs, represents a type of scoring system, but there could be others, depending upon the type of challenge. For example, in a minimum-kill game, the number of kills made during the game could represent a score, where a lower score is more desirable.

Generally speaking, a scoring system, in any form, will create an incentive for certain game play behaviors. The example given above will create an incentive to minimize the number of kills made during the game.

To make the challenge even more interesting, one could also keep track of the number of times one is forced to reload during the game. However, a reload might be weighted differently, such that 1 reload = 5 kills. In other words, each time you reload your total score would be increased by 5. Because a lower score is more desirable, this would create an incentive to reload less.

You have proposed a no side quest challenge. But it is difficult to determine what might count as a side quest and what might not. For example, lets say I don't want to CLUA 20,000 gold in the beginning. My protagonist will then feel that he/she needs to do some side quests in order to earn the gold required by Bodhi or Bayle. In fact, the game seems to have been designed with this in mind. So it may be hard to enforce a pure no side quest rule. A minimum side quest rule might be more appropriate.

A minimum side quest challenge implies an attempt to minimize the amount of experience gained. So a third component of the scoring system could be related to the total experience gained, with a built-in incentive to minimize experience. For example, 20,000 points of experience could be set equal to 1 kill.

In this manner, one's total score would be the sum of three components: (1) the number of kills, (2) the number of reloads, and (3) the amount of experience gained. This could be boiled down to a single number, consisting of “kill points”, where 1 kill point is acquired for each enemy that is killed, and in addition: 1 reload = 5 kill points = 100,000 exp. points.

Such a scoring system would allow for an almost infinite variety of different approaches to the same problem: how to achieve the lowest kill point score during the course of the game. For example, one might decide that it would be desirable to complete the Trademeet quests in order to obtain the belt of inertial barrier, or to complete the planar prison quests in order to obtain the boots of speed, or to take on the group in the Seven Vales in order to obtain the cloak of non-detection, if one feels that by doing so one's final kill point score might be lowered, (perhaps due to fewer reloads or fewer kills). IMO, variability in approach is highly desirable to keep things interesting.

As a final note, any such scoring system must be based upon an even playing field. This could be problematic given the tendency of BG2 players to include all kinds of custom mods in any given install. For example, your experience reducing mod would directly impact your experience score. So I am not sure that a tournament based system, with a mild spirit of competition, will work here. Nevertheless, I thought I would throw out some general ideas in this direction for discussion.

If I do decide to join you (I am re-downloading BG2 at the moment), I will follow the scoring system outlined above with a straight vanilla install (except for certain components from the fix and tweak paks), in order to establish a challenge base line. An SCS 2, or Tactics/Ascension install, will obviously result in a whole different set of game play situations, which will affect one's score (if one decides to keep such a score).

[BelgarathMTH]

I remember suggesting a competition once, about two years ago. The feedback at the time convinced me that it was a bad idea. One reason given was that most people in our community like to support each other and cheer each other on, and there was some worry about changing the friendly tone of the forum if it was a competition.

Another very practical reason was the difficulty in coming up with a fair scoring system, as discussed by Angiras, above.

However, if you guys can come up with a ruleset that works and get together a group of people who enjoy it, it might be fun. I don't think I want to try it myself, because the rules seem a little too complicated for me, but if some other people start doing it, I will read the posts with great interest.

[angiras108]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
I remember suggesting a competition once, about two years ago. The feedback at the time convinced me that it was a bad idea. One reason given was that most people in our community like to support each other and cheer each other on, and there was some worry about changing the friendly tone of the forum if it was a competition.

Understood. However, in dozens of single player tournaments I have never seen any whiff of unfriendliness. Competition is not really necessary, but a scoring system to gauge or evaluate one's progress might be helpful. 
I have decided to give this a try. This is a vanilla install with BG2 Fixpack and a few convenience components from BG2 Tweakpack. I am running with a neutral good elven fighter/mage/thief named Abyss, with the following stats:
str 18/54
dex 19
con 17
int 13
wis 3
cha 14

Stealth (or at least invisibility) will be essential for this challenge. The choice of F/M/T over a F/T was based upon the notion that the availability of wands, spells, and scrolls may be more important than a few extra hit points, a slightly lower thac0, or a few extra thief points.
It is unlikely that the protagonist will reach 3 million exp. points (i.e., no UAI) during the challenge, even in ToB, so having access to the mage class from the beginning may be the only way for a rogue multiclass to get access to wands, scrolls, or spells, unless the protagonist is a dual class rogue-mage.
Proficiencies:
Short Sword ***
Quarterstaff *
Short Bow *

At character creation 165 thief points were available. Points were applied to achieve the following results:
Open Locks 25
Find Traps 80
Pick Pockets 35
Move Silently 45
Hide in Shadows 120
Detect Illusions 0
Set Traps 10
I figured the only two essential skills for the starting dungeon were find traps and stealth. A skill level of 80 in find traps is required to disarm the trap guarding the portal key to get to the second level. The rest of the points went into stealth, because a failed stealth attempt could easily result in having to fight one or more mobs, thus increasing the kill count, or force a reload.
Mage spells initially memorized upon resting were as follows:

Level 1:
Find Familiar x 1
Spook x 3
Level 2:
Invisibility x 2
Level 3:
Haste x 1
Summary of the First Level of the Dungeon:
Upon getting out of his cage, Abyss told Imoen to get lost. He then picked up a short sword and quarterstaff from the table, arranged his spell book, and rested. Jaheria and Minsc were left in their cages to rot.
He ignored the metphit in the lightning room, the genie in the next room, and the goblins in the hallway. He stealthed to the room with that contains the stone for the golem, and told the dead man in the bottle to bug off, so that he wouldn't get quest experience. He then stealthed into the room with the golem, gave him the stone, and quickly ran out of the room and around the corner to re-stealth. The mephit in the golem room and the goblins in the hallway were thus avoided.
Once the golem had opened all the doors, he stealthed past the otyugh, and entered the hallway that leads to Jon's living quarters. The goblins in the hallway blocked the passage, so he revealed himself to them and drew them out of the hallway into the otyugh room, at which point he cast invisibility and proceeded down the hallway (no kills or experience up to this point).
In Jon's living room, he disarmed the trap guarding balduran's helm and equipped it, a nice price for only 1750 exp. He did the same for the metaspell influence amulet, for another 1750 exp. At this point, he leveled up in his fighter class to become F6/M5/T6, and put another pip into short swords. This gave him a thac0 of 8 with his short sword, decent enough for any required backstabs. He closed the door to the living room (to avoid the golems), and proceeded to the bedroom, after speaking with the nymphs.
He found the traps at the entrance to the bedroom and carefully avoided them, without disarming them.
He disarmed the two traps guarding the portal key for another 1750 x 2 exp., got the portal key, picked up the potion of thievery, and exited the level.
So far so good. No kills, and a total of only 7000 exp. all from traps.

[Grond0]

Nice start angiras108 - best of luck for the long haul.

[angiras108]

Abyss FMT

Second Level of Dungeon

Upon arriving on the second level, Abyss told Yoshimo to go away. He then buffed with mirror image and shield spells, opened the door to the mephit room in stealth, and stealthed to the farthest portal, which he killed with a backstab. The other portals fell in short order, even though Abyss was blinded. This gave him 20,000 exp and 4 kills, and caused him to level up in both his mage and rogue classes, at which point he was F6/M6/T7.

He picked up the keys of fire, summoning, and cloudkill from the chests in the room, and stealthed to the small bridge with the trap. He closed the door once on the bridge, and the goblins never noticed him. Instead of disarming the trap, he cast mirror image and triggered it, for no additional exp. He then acquired the wands of fire, summoning, and cloudkill from the statues, along with the ring of protection +1. The duergars killed themselves by means of the traps, while chasing him.

Abyss then memorized a knock spell, stealthed to the chest that holds the girdle of bluntness and unlocked it via the spell (his open lock skill is too low to do so). He grabbed the girdle and fled. When he had the opportunity he cast invisibility and exited the dungeon.

Stealing and Shopping in Waukeen's Promenade

So Abyss is a thief and this is a vanilla install. He sold enough of his goodies to buy the 2 potions of theivery from Ribald. He then rested till night time, and after using the potions, proceeded to steal Jayes blind, repeatedly, while selling back the stuff just stolen. A lot of gold was acquired. In fact, I am embarrassed to say how much. Cheesy? Yes, indeed. But it was a teensy weensy bit more satisfying than just using CLUA to cheat in a ton of gold. Dunno why.

He then made some essential purchases:

1. Robe of Vecna.
2. Mercy Killer Ring.
3. Shield of Balduran.
4. Vahalior's Helm.
5. All of Ribald's Green Scrolls.
6. Rod of Resurrection.
7. The recharged wands of fire, summoning, and cloudkill.
8. Assorted potions and other scrolls.

To minimize experience the only scrolls he read were stoneskin and spirit armor.

Finally, he visited the Den of Seven Vales, and after drinking a potion to get his strength to 21, he backstabbed the mage upstairs to acquire his cloak of non-detection. It cost 6000 exp points, but will probably prove worth it. He then ran downstairs, stealthed, and exited. Easy peasy.

Time to head for the Slums.

[angiras108]

Grond0 wrote...

Nice start angiras108 - best of luck for the long haul.

Thanks Grond0. 

Abyss FMT
Copper Coronet


After speaking with Gaylen, and NOT giving him any money, Abyss entered the Copper Coronet. There were two things he wanted here: (1) the Tuigan Short bow and (2) Azuredge. So after speaking with the proprietor, he entered the backrooms, and backstabbed the guard near Hendak before he said a word. This prevented the other guards from spawning and saved a few kills.


Using the gloves of pickpocketing and potions of perception he tried to pickpocket the key from the beast master, but failed. So, plan B. Abyss cast invisibility and backstabbed him. Unfortunately, this only brought him to near death, so Abyss had to fight him a bit before finally killing him. He was then blocked by all of the animals that had been released from their cages. To make an opening in the crowd, he had to cast spook on one. He ran through the opening back to Hendak and closed the door on the animals. So only the beast master was killed.


Hendak then killed Lenthian and Naila killed the rest of the guards. Abyss just stood around in stealth. (haha) I tried to avoid getting the quest experience from Hendak, but if you get within a certain distance his quest dialogue triggers automatically. So I had to eat the experience. Anyway, I got the Azuredge and Tuigan bow. But paid a heavy price for them. Not sure it was worth it. This might be one area where both kill points and experience points could be saved.


Abyss is now F7/M7/T8. He has not had to make any reloads so far. But he has 7 kills for an experience value of 28015, and has total experience of 233514. Using the scoring system outlined earlier that means he has 23 + 7 = 30 kill points at this stage in the game. This could be improved upon quite a bit, if one is willing to forgo the items.

[angiras108]

I decided that the Tuigan Bow and Azuredge are not worth the kills and the experience required to obtain them.

Regarding the Tuigan Bow, I do not expect to do a lot of ranged fighting, and thus will only need a bow to deliver arrows of dispelling. The Strong Arm, (+3 thac0), which can be acquired from Ribald will serve that purpose fine.

Regarding the Azuredge, I do not expect to fight any liches at all, and very few undead, except maybe some vampires. But they can be taken out with the daystar longsword, obtained for zero kills and just some unlocking exp.

So I have decided to re-roll and aim for a lower score.

[The Potty 1]

Welcome Angiras

The 5 kills for a reload thing would pretty much knock me out of this challenge, more on that later.

I'm taking the no sidequest requirement as a hard rule. It's generally pretty easy to spot a sidequest, although the underdark obviously offers many ways of being resolved. Nevertheless the information you possess when you arrive is that Irenecus & Bhodi went to Ust Natha, you only find out about Suldanessellar when you meet the elves, so a reasonable person would not leave without finding out more information. Perhaps once you see they are not there you could justify stealing the eggs (so as not to look like a drow) and leaving. In light of what you have said I propose we only measure number of kills, and have a self-regulated 'gentleperson's agreement' to avoid sidequests. My second post lists the reasonably required quests.

[angiras108]

The Potty 1 wrote...
The 5 kills for a reload thing would pretty much knock me out of this challenge, more on that later.

No problem. I was just throwing out ideas for discussion.

The Potty 1 wrote...
I'm taking the no sidequest requirement as a hard rule.

Again, no problem. On my second run, other than stealing and shopping, I will be following the main quest line exclusively.
 

The Potty 1 wrote...
 In light of what you have said I propose we only measure number of kills, and have a self-regulated 'gentleperson's agreement' to avoid sidequests. My second post lists the reasonably required quests.

Number of kills sounds fine. Sweet and simple.

[The Potty 1]

So, my progress. I tried to steal daystar and escape, but SCS2 won't let you leave until you kill the lich. I died/reloaded, bought a protection from undead scroll and tried again, the lich cast dispel, and I died/reloaded. I decided to keep looting equipment until midnight, because I think regardless of when you go to meet Bhodi the clock moves forward to midnight.

I plundered the promenade, government, bridge, temple, & graveyard districts, got the berzerker horn, and used a potion of invisibility to steal the kitthix spider thing. I couldn't get the cloak from the rakasha because it was already hostile. In the promenade I got ambushed by tactics thugs who follow me around while I'm stealthed. I lead them to some city guards and got them to near death, then switched to the cosh. The guards killed them and I looted their gear. EDIT I did die/reload twice while doing this. EDIT the entire temple of lathander is also hostile.

I met Bhodi, and went off to ambush Mook. She was blue, so I pickpocketed the crate, ran, and stealthed at the top of the stairs. About 5 stealthed thieves spawned, and started detecting illusions while following my stealthed self. I ran like blazes, but lost stealth, got mobbed, and died/reloaded. I think this is due to rogue rebalancing. So, off to get the cloak of non-detection. I managed to get a city guard to kill Amon of the purple hand, so still 5 kills.

I re-tried Mook, and managed to flee the area. Bhodi gave me the next quest, I chose the coward's quest, but she said a kill was required so I changed to the hero's quest. So, off to the thieves guild. As I entered the docks district, Mook and her thieves started following me again, but I stealthed and headed past the temple of Ogma. My hide roll failed as I went past the temple, so I ducked into the temple before my stealth failed. A thief followed me into the temple although I was hidden the entire time, and backstabbed me, and I decided siding with Bhodi while using rogue rebalancing and minimal killing is simply beyond my ability. It may well be doable, it probably has been done at least by aVenger if no one else, but I bailed out.

So, reload, pay Gaelan, meet Aran, go and separate Amon for the cloak of non-detection. This time I accidentally killed him, but immediately got ambushed by tactics thugs and died/reloaded. I redid Amon, this time keeping my health maxed out, hiding immediately after I knocked him unconscious, and letting the guard kill him.

Off to fight Lassal, only to realise that I only had non-magical weapons, and then got dominated. So, reload, bought a +2 longsword from Jayes, a potion of invulnerability, and a scroll of protection from undead. I summoned kitthix & the horn warrior, and managed to take out Lassal on the second try. I had to reload because he fled and I couldn't find him, but the quest was incomplete. On the plus side killing him didn't increment my kill count, so I'm still on 5.

Killed Jaylos, Caehan, & the guild contact, so now should be on 8 kills, haven't actually checked.

EDIT So I count 9 reloads, add to the two from my previous progress update for a total of 11.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .

[The Potty 1]

The cool thing about a F/M/T is you can use the amulet of power, solving the problem I have with level drain. I plan to steal the rogue rebalancing level drain protection dagger from Arledrian, hopefully I can pickpocket it or let the vampires kill him.

In case it wasn't obvious, I edited my save to remove the 5* in short swords, and went for 5* in long swords instead.
I gave up on the gesen bow because I can't solve the skinner quest, so I don't particularly need blunt weapons, although I may still need to kill the golems to get enough tokens to get the boots of speed. I'll have the unimproved mace of disruption if I need to.

I was assuming we would hit 3M XP simply because we're soloing, and are still completing the main line quests. Thinking about it I could be very wrong. Damn. Improved Irenecus and the Ascension fights will be insanely tough without HLAs, although I still think ToB should get us into HLA territory. I'll see how I go, perhaps some high level kills are worth it, bone & iron golems, spirit trolls, elder vampires, anything giving over 10k XP. A lucky stealthed attack with the mace of disruption may even get me through some lich fights, and finally get me that Daystar, which is worth a die/reload.

EDIT OK given the XP/HLA problem I've revised my expectations somewhat. I'm gonna stop buggering around and get this character to the final Irenecus fight in hell, hopefully the only really challenging fights between then and now are Bhodi, the Suldanesselar dragon, and Irenecus at the tree of life. I'll give the final fight a go, but if I die horribly with no idea how I could win, I'll retire the character and restart with a new character and a new challenge. The challenge in question will be a simple no sidequest / minimal reload run. I think I'll also go for a F/M/T because I've never tried one, but I think I'd miss all those thieving points.

To clarify the no sidequest thing a bit more, you cannot accept a quest if there is any way of avoiding it. You certainly cannot accept a quest reqard. You are welcome to ask Leithan to let you into the back rooms, you may explore the back rooms as far as you are able to, you may pickpocket or kill every creature you meet, you can get the Tuigan bow, but you may not free Hendak, you may not get Lilarcor, and you may not collect the rewards for freeing the three captive children in the slaver base. If you can free the children without collecting the rewards, and feel you have to, then by all means do. You can't access Mae'var's guild, the tanner's rooms, the harper base, although you can do the twisted rune as it involves no quest. The only areas which can have been visited by the end of the game are Ankathla, Brynnlaw, Spellhold, the Underdark, Ust natha, optionally one of the two underdark areas other than the western one, the underdark exit, the forest of Tethir, and Suldanesselar.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:33 .

[angiras108]

I dont envy your SCS2/rogue rebalancing attempt. Its hard enough with just a vanilla install.
Before reloading my initial attempt, I continued with Abyss for scouting, experimentation purposes.
Even with a vanilla install, I quickly concluded that siding with Bodhi would lead to a lot more kills than siding with the Shadow Thieves, and probably a lot more reloads.

I managed to do the three Shadow Thief main quests by killing only Jaylos, Cahan, the Guild Master, and Lassal twice. The clay golem in the vampire staking room also had to be killed, because he kept returning to that room after being led away numerous times, and I didnt want to fight both the golem and Bodhi at the same time. So that was 6 kills, plus Amon, and the 4 portals in the starting dungeon, for a total of 11 by the time I hit Brynlaw.

But Spellhold presents a whole other problem for a minimal kill game. First off, you have the Kobold Shard room. The shard wont drop from the crystal until the first set of Kobolds is killed off, and at least the Witch Doctor in the second set is killed (maybe all the Kobold Shamans too.) That is a LOT of kills unless you are willing to use certain exploits. Potty you seem to already be using such exploits, by having guards kill enemy mobs for you. The only way that I can see to get rid of the Kobolds without increasing one's kill count is to use the Caco Fiend Scroll that can be obtained in the Copper Coronet, but only if you free Hendak.

Alternatively, you could use a simulacrum summoned by Vahalior's helm, because the simmy's kills do not show up on your kill count number (under Information) either. No doubt this whole challenge is smeared with gouda, but that just seems extra cheesy.

The rest of Spellhold is no problem. In vanilla (at my low level) I encountered only 2 skeleton warriors and a couple of shadow fiends where the lich normally hangs out, and they dont see through invisibility or stealth. The only other difficult to avoid kill is the troll that stands in the doorway by the Minator statue, just before re-encountering Bodhi. I was able to get him out of the way by summoning some monsters behind him using the wand of summoning, and then going invisible. He turned to fight them and moved out of my way. Otherwise, you simply have to kill him.

Then upon exiting you are faced with the kobold archers surrounding you on the pedastals. They all have to be killed before the spellhold director appears. I couldnt figure out any other approach. That is 6-8 unavoidable kills right there.

Then you have the mushroom thing, which has to be killed fast, before it spawns babies, and the troll room with 2 spirit trolls and the 2 regular trolls that have to killed before the director appears. These things could potentially be taken out using the Caco Fiend, cast by a Simmy, if you have a mage class mix. Otherwise you are out of luck.

So a general ruling has to be made: Can one use other npcs or summoned creatures to kill mobs on one's behalf, without increasing one's kill count? Its a gray and very cheesy question.

If you can use guards to do your killing, then why cant my mage use Caco Fiends to do his killing? This whole approach of substitute killing is unappealing to me. In my opinion, if you cause a mob to be killed, by knocking him out and having a guard kill him, or summoning a Caco Fiend and having the Fiend kill him, then you are ultimately responsible for making that mob die. Hence, it should count as your kill. Dont you agree? Or am I missing something? Its fun to be clever, but there are limits, and then it just becomes pointless.

In BG1 a no-kill or minimal (1 or 2) kill game is possible. But not in BG2. At this point, it is clear that a minimal kill BG2 run will still involve a LOT of killing, at least dozens of kills, unless you are willing to use lots of exploits. This makes the whole undertaking a little less appealing to me, and given that realization, I dont think I have the motivation to continue. But I will certain continue to follow your attempts with great interest.

[The Potty 1]

When I looked through the walkthrough I recognised that there were always going to be a baseline number of required kills, the shard and pedestal kobolds would probably outnumber the rest of the required kills on their own. Nevertheless, being required, everyone would have to do them.

That said, I have to agree that being the agent of a creatures destruction should count as a kill.

In any case, I'm going to get as far as I can with this character using these rules, simply to see what I'm up against, and then I'm going to roll up a FMT and drop the minimal killing rule, which should make it a whole lot easier, plus I should need far fewer reloads because the problems are all reasonably fresh in my mind. Even better, I can wear the amulet of power, and can start as chaotic neutral instead of pretending that I'm playing chaotic good so I can use Azureedge. Either way I'll still end up neutral evil because the first good long sword I can get is black razor. So another reason for my pre-run is to scout out better weapon choices.

Anyway I'm glad you got this far, and if you feel like a straight no-sidequest run, it is quite fun. For my first no-sidequest I had a vanilla install rather like yours, and also used a multi F/T. I soloed until I could rescue Imoen, then together we finished SoA. We both got our first HLA's just after killing Bhodi, and had 2-3 more each by the time we fought Illasera. Sarevok joined us for ToB, and that was the one and only time I have tried vanilla Mel. My FT was level 20/24, Imoen was 7>27, and Sarevok was 29, so Mel was quite tough, but I managed eventually. The other ToB bosses were laughable after being used to the Ascension versions.

[angiras108]

Actually, the experience of playing a minimal sidequest game was quite enjoyable. Rather than feeling I was missing out on something by not doing Trademeet, the Keep, the Planar Prison, etc., I felt liberated! In fact, within the last 30 minutes I started a new FMT to do a vanilla minimal side quest run with the exp cap in place, without worrying about kills, exp, or exactly how many side quests I might decide to do. It will be minimal but not "no sidequests". I havent played through a vanilla install in ages, so its almost like a new game. Thus, when I do eventually go back to an SCS2/Ascension run I will be able to fully appreciate the changes.

[BelgarathMTH]

Wow, this is a fascinating read. I'm amazed at how well you two guys know the game.

[The Potty 1]

Sorry, I smoked Smoke, and I rolled up .. er, Smoke, the elven FMT. Damn, there go my halfling saving throws. Stats 18(36)/19/17/18/8/9. Blasted through the opening dungeon, sold my loot, donated to the temple to get reputation to 17, paid Gaelan, current levels 8/9/10. Going to steal up a storm, then see about some better gear.

[aVENGER_]

The Potty 1 wrote...

I decided siding with Bhodi while using rogue rebalancing and minimal killing is simply beyond my ability. It may well be doable, it probably has been done at least by aVenger if no one else, but I bailed out.

You need to be under Improved Invisibility while pickpocketing Mook/Gaelan/Booter/Haz if you don't want them to notice you. Alternatively, you can install the TobEx component which allows a thief to remain hidden/invisible after performing a successful pickpocket attempt.

BTW, if you follow the stealth path you only need to kill Aran while working for Bodhi. His personal guards will flee if you disengage from combat (i.e. go invisible and run away) after killing him. Note that this only works if you have RR's "Shadow Thief Improvements" component installed.

Modifié par aVENGER_, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[The Potty 1]

aVENGER_ wrote...

You need to be under Improved Invisibility while pickpocketing Mook/Gaelan/Booter/Haz if you don't want them to notice you. Alternatively, you can install the TobEx component which allows a thief to remain hidden/invisible after performing a successful pickpocket attempt.

BTW, if you follow the stealth path you only need to kill Aran while working for Bodhi. His personal guards will flee if you disengage from combat (i.e. go invisible and run away) after killing him. Note that this only works if you have RR's "Shadow Thief Improvements" component installed.

Damn, that sounds quite fun. Perhaps I should reload an earlier save and give it a go. Sounds quite tough with a solo FM, as all you can use for II is the ring of air, which requires a sleep to recharge, I'd probably end up using the bag of holding recharge exploit. A FMT should have less trouble.

My TobEx install is a bit suspect, because I originally installed BG2 on linux/wine, and modded it heavily. I then started it up, but the lag was horrendous. I did a google search, which fingered TobEx as the possible culprit. Being a cowboy, I manually killed any TobEx files I could find, with zero effect. I then created a winXp virtualbox partition, installed BG there, and then copied the linux install over it. Amazingly, it seems none the worse for it, but I doubt TobEx is working. On the other hand, I did seem to still be invisible after pickpocketing Mook.

[The Potty 1]

Whoohoo, found a brilliant longsword that's probably often overlooked because it's only +2. It's Namarra, looted from the Crypt king in the graveyard. It does 1d8+4 damage (5-12), where a standard +2 longsword only does 1d8+2 (3-10). Basically it has an extra +2 to damage for no reason that I can see, so it deals the damage of a +4 weapon. THACO & enchantment level is still only +2.

This makes it a great weapon for backstabbing, even the staff of Rynn +4 only deals 5-10 damage. The staff of striking at 10-15 still wins overall, but the charge thing makes that only usable on special occasions. Celestial fury deals 1d10+3 (4-13), which is the same average damage with a larger spread, although the stun effect and higher enchantment are a win.

I suck at damage calculations, but here goes. My strength is 18/36, giving me +3 to final damage. I have grandmastery in longswords, giving me +5 to base damage. I think elves get another +1 when using longswords. My backstab multiplier is currently 4, increasing to 5 at level 13. I'm currently using a shield, but later will switch to dual wielding or single weapon style. I think I'll ignore style bonuses for simplicity.

Assume I roll an 8 on a normal attack for the max basic damage of 12. GM adds 5 and elves add 1, giving 18. Strength takes this to 21. A critical hit will double this to 42.

Now assume I roll an 8 on a backstab for the max basic damage of 12. GM adds 5 and elves add 1, giving 18. A 5x backstab multiplier takes this to 90. Strength takes this to 93? A critical backstab will double this to 186? Cool.

[angiras108]

Gratz on the Namarra. Its a nice early weapon, specially for an elf.

I have had to postpone my FMT run because my laptop got a start error and had to use system restore to fix it, which killed my BG2 installation, and even erased my BG2 download from Gog.com. So I'm downloading again. sigh.

[Gate70]

You can disable tobex, details here social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/182/index/13141522#13168945

Needs a re-install of SCS though.