72 réponses à ce sujet

[Kasrkin]

The Twilight God wrote...

Kasrkin wrote...

Looking forward to reading your critiques on the catalyst and the endings. You raise some valid points in your first two posts in this thread.

Kudos.

Did anything I wrote not make sense?

You wrote an excellent essay on many of the plotholes that plague an otherwise great game.

I don't think Mass Effect is famous for being an awesome shooter (it's ok;) but as an amazing narrative, that we get to project ourselves into.  A proxy for ourselves.

This is why I have a hard time believing that anyone, let alone Shepard, would be foolish enough to believe anything that comes out of a space magic hologram's pseudomouth.

Sorry for the late reply, I have been remiss in checking my subscribed threads.  Too much multiplayer (which is actually fun, despite the bugs.)

[The Twilight God]

Kasrkin wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Kasrkin wrote...

Looking forward to reading your critiques on the catalyst and the endings. You raise some valid points in your first two posts in this thread.

Kudos.

Did anything I wrote not make sense?

You wrote an excellent essay on many of the plotholes that plague an otherwise great game.

I don't think Mass Effect is famous for being an awesome shooter (it's ok;) but as an amazing narrative, that we get to project ourselves into.  A proxy for ourselves.

This is why I have a hard time believing that anyone, let alone Shepard, would be foolish enough to believe anything that comes out of a space magic hologram's pseudomouth.

Sorry for the late reply, I have been remiss in checking my subscribed threads.  Too much multiplayer (which is actually fun, despite the bugs.)

From my perspective, anything save Destroy is the result of an indoctrinated Shepard

Destroy: Anderson, exactly what you came to do.
Control: TIM, foolish pride.  (indoctrinated)
Synthesis: Saren, surrender to Reaper ideals (indoctrinated)
Refusal: Defeatism, the antithesis of the entire series theme. (indoctrinated. This ending showcases the purest form of indoctrination)

This being the case, the other endings gain validity. Sure, the Control and Synthesis ending may just be delusions of a dying Shepard and exist to keep the players themselves indoctrinated into thinking they did good, but an indoctrinated Shepard is at least narratively valid.

Otherwise, it's just ****** poor writing that no author in their right minds could be proud of.

[Xamufam]

true

[dtox666]

The ending that I was hoping for (but only got off one shot) was where the player would repeatedly shoot the Catalyst in the face while the Catalyst begs for forgiveness for having written such a simple-minded, cliched and trite ending.

[elitehunter34]

dtox666 wrote...

The ending that I was hoping for (but only got off one shot) was where the player would repeatedly shoot the Catalyst in the face while the Catalyst begs for forgiveness for having written such a simple-minded, cliched and trite ending.

Sounds a lot like this ending  
http://i0.kym-cdn.co...271/530/032.png 

EDIT: Won't let me post it directly.  Oh well.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 22 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[Auckmid]

Good OP. Synergy makes no sence, and its realy hard to chose control when you just argued TIM into commiting suicide because of "Are you willing to bet humanitys existence on it"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@TWG: I had time today to actually read through the full post. It seem to conclude that Shepard was being indoctrinated. Excellent.

One thing you forgot (sorry guys, I've got to ruin your brains, here):

At the laser blast, I picture The Director Casey Hudson yells "Cut! Wardrobe!" and a half dozen evil munchkins from "The Wizard Of Oz" go running out and change Shepard's armor (can't have that Cerberus, whatever armor), stab her in the abdomen and insert a tube and tape to her shoulder so the blood comes out there, and steal her weapons, and replace them with a charred set of N7 armor with no medigel, shoot her with some drugs, and give her a crappy pistol that has infinite ammo. Then he yells "Action!"

Sorry, I can't let go of that scene. It is a "Plan Nine From Outer Space" moment, and from then on the entire ending is just asinine. No EC, no patch can save it. Nothing other than a complete rewrite with an entirely different ending can save the story at this point.

(However a DLC with Shepard waking up with her normal armor in that rubble (another IT lives moment that triggers with both Destroy and Refuse), regular weapons, tapping that medigel, and perhaps meeting up with a couple members from other parts of Hammer like picking a couple of the ME2 squad (Zaeed, Samara, Kasumi, Jack, Grunt, Jacob -- Miranda was on a fighter mission) continuing on with a completely different ending could salvage the story -- considering Harbinger left the beam area. Now let's go be big goddam heros.)

And why is the blood black and dark blue? That shows a serious lack of oxygen. Venous blood is dark red. Arterial blood is red. Coagulated blood is dark red. Does this mean Shepard is a zombie?

PS: you forgot one thing. Liara also confirmed that Shepard was not a hybrid VI, and that Shepard was really Shepard the moment they joined (in LOTSB) if LI.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:04 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

I'm sorry but this whole thing is a joke. The fact they have to bring out an extended cut is a joke.

Shepard should kill Harbinger, thus "defeating" the reapers. Then he can live/die/have babies whatever.

That is the ending. That is all that needed to be done.

This whole "art" thing is ridiculous. Bioware should have held up their hands and admitted they were trying to be too clever and just rewrote the thing.

They are going to have to release an expansion to fix this mess.

$39.99 for the Mass Effect 3: The What it Should Have Been Expansion Pack

No ****, really? There is more than just the ending that is wrong with the story, but they could do it with a $10 new ending actually. It really wouldn't be that difficult. It wouldn't satisfy people who have a lot invested in Control, Synthesis, and Destroy, and Refuse choices, and it does involve IT, and it does involve a little ham handedness, but far less than what was done already (like someone dragging Shepard out from where the laser blast hit since Harbinger left before he picks Synthesis or Control, or after he picks Destroy or Refuse), and a completely different ending from there using other members from the Hammer team that happen to be part of the ME2 squad: pick your squad and new ending.

Just put Hudson and Walters on administrative leave while the team is writing this. I don't want those two anywhere near it. I want Batman to live and have the blue babies.

This is good Ninja'd myself.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[Marauder Shieldz]

Although the plot holes did bother me, the main problem i had with the endings was the amount of speculating i had to do to get a halfway decent ending.

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@TWG: I had time today to actually read through the full post. It seem to conclude that Shepard was being indoctrinated. Excellent.
[b]

No, not exactly.

At the very last moment - there and only there - is it possible for shepard to be swayed by the effects of indoctrination. Destroy is the choice for a non-indoctrinated Shepard, so in that scenario he is not indoctrinated. I don't believe this was intended as such, but it is what was presented. I believe it is just a poor narrative that the writers didn't really take the time to think through. It comes off as rushed. But regardless of the intent of the writers the finished product does paint the picture that Control and Synthesis (as well as Refusal) are the choices of an indoctrinated Shepard. Refusal makes things worse by showing that the Catalyst is a liar. Along with the design of the Catalyst chamber which clearly depicts that tthe Catalyst was, in fact, expecting the Crucible. That alone sets the Catalyst up as a liar from the get go.

There are little things throughout the game that are peculiar. The boy that no one else acknowledges or interacts with in any way. The dreams with the oily shadows that bring me back to the Rachni Queens mention of oily shadow songs. Those dreams were pretty sour. Not to mention I'm pretty sure I can hear reapers chattering in the 2nd and 3rd dream sequence. I have two shepard who simply would not be moved by the death of 1 child. No way. No how. So for me, this was the reapers getting into Shepard's head. I will not allow Bioware to dictate that Shepard has to be a softy.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

At the laser blast, I picture The Director Casey Hudson yells "Cut! Wardrobe!" and a half dozen evil munchkins from "The Wizard Of Oz" go running out and change Shepard's armor (can't have that Cerberus, whatever armor), stab her in the abdomen and insert a tube and tape to her shoulder so the blood comes out there, and steal her weapons, and replace them with a charred set of N7 armor with no medigel, shoot her with some drugs, and give her a crappy pistol that has infinite ammo. Then he yells "Action!"

 True enough.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Sorry, I can't let go of that scene. It is a "Plan Nine From Outer Space" moment, and from then on the entire ending is just asinine. No EC, no patch can save it. Nothing other than a complete rewrite with an entirely different ending can save the story at this point.

I'm not completely convinced on the whole Indoctrination Theory, but I don't dismiss it entirely. There is a lot wrong with the presentation of those final events. And it is difficult to comprehend how they could make so many errors unintentionally.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

PS: you forgot one thing. Liara also confirmed that Shepard was not a hybrid VI, and that Shepard was really Shepard the moment they joined (in LOTSB) if LI.

I've only played ME3 once and I the game I transferred over was a Tali romance. Thanks for the info. I'll edit it in.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Fredvdp]

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@TWG: I had time today to actually read through the full post. It seem to conclude that Shepard was being indoctrinated. Excellent.
[b]

No, not exactly.

At the very last moment - there and only there - is it possible for shepard to be swayed by the effects of indoctrination. Destroy is the choice for a non-indoctrinated Shepard, so in that scenario he is not indoctrinated. I don't believe this was intended as such, but it is what was presented. I believe it is just a poor narrative that the writers didn't really take the time to think through. It comes off as rushed. But regardless of the intent of the writers the finished product does paint the picture that Control and Synthesis (as well as Refusal) are the choices of an indoctrinated Shepard. Refusal makes things worse by showing that the Catalyst is a liar. Along with the design of the Catalyst chamber which clearly depicts that tthe Catalyst was, in fact, expecting the Crucible. That alone sets the Catalyst up as a liar from the get go.

Sorry if I was unclear, that was what I meant.

The indoctrination attempt was being done by the Catalyst itself. That is the way it comes across.

I'm not a fan of the indoctrination theory as it was initially presented. It was IMO an attempt of peoples brains to make sense of a very poorly written ending. It was polishing a turd.

Unfortunately at this point in time the only way to salvage the turd is to embrace some parts of IT and write an ending sort of like Bethesda did Broken Steel and adds the real ending to the story from the laser blast onward that let's Batman live not just in our heads.

PS: Liara made that comment if you brought her with you on Cronos.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .

[The Twilight God]

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

[elitehunter34]

The Twilight God wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

It's answered right here.  Apparantly using the Citadel was an idea added later.

[tanisha__unknown]

Didn't read everything, but looks interesting and the points I rea bout the catalyst and the crucible seem valid

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

You mean that Walters and Hudson are writers?

You know this was indeed a problem. The only way I could figure it out, which the authors hadn't mentioned, is that they had found a derelict reaper somewhere and got the Reaper IFF, and copied it for their fleet and for the crucible. Now if that was the case, then wouldn't locking out the relays had been pointless anyway? Or would the reaper central AI or Relay computer gotten suspicious when 100 Reapers named "Harry" decided to go through at once?

Let alone how did they know that it needed to dock with the Citadel anyway? Was it that the dimensions coincidently matched the Citadel ring? I mean I was wondering why they didn't just fire it at the Reapers and take out swaths of them. Okay, so in the conversation with the VI if you blinked you missed that critical piece of information. Come on BW. If it's critical you don't bury it. Anderson was born in London. Oh, it had to dock, but why? Uh, it needed a power source. Then we find out IT was nothing but a battery. We built a battery. Why didn't it say "Eveready" or "Duracell" on the side?  This is another huge plothole.

And one more plothole. If C-Sec saw the Reapers come through the relay, wouldn't they have closed the Citadel arms, or is the Council that stupid (wait! don't answer that!)? If so how would they have gotten control? Or did The Illusive Man stage a coup? But where were all the Cerberus troops and their new "reaper" support troops? That was never made clear.

Sadly, "Bookends of Destruction", especially about the last 1/4 of the game are looking more and more less mean and nasty.

Have I been getting snarky?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:42 .

[Fredvdp]

elitehunter34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

It's answered right here.  Apparantly using the Citadel was an idea added later.

How does that answer this exactly? Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because it's late in the evening where I live, but I don't see how that answers any of our questions.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:19 .

[elitehunter34]

Fredvdp wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

It's answered right here.  Apparantly using the Citadel was an idea added later.

How does that answer this exactly? Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because it's late in the evening where I live, but I don't see how that answers any of our questions.

The Crucible didn't originally use the mass relays, so there was no need for the Catalyst.  That answers your question of why they would use the Crucible despite not having the Catalyst  It wasn't originally intended to use the Catalyst.  Vendetta says "It is difficult to pinpoint when the Crucible plans were incorporated to make use of the Catalyst."

[The Twilight God]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

How does that answer this exactly? Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because it's late in the evening where I live, but I don't see how that answers any of our questions.

The Crucible didn't originally use the mass relays, so there was no need for the Catalyst.  That answers your question of why they would use the Crucible despite not having the Catalyst  It wasn't originally intended to use the Catalyst.  Vendetta says "It is difficult to pinpoint when the Crucible plans were incorporated to make use of the Catalyst."

It seems to me that the Crucible could have worked without the Citadel. The differene would be that it would only affect a relatively small region of the galxy at any given time. This is why it failed. It requires the Citadel to reach every pocket of the galaxy. 

Now the question emerges: Why not use it without the Citadel to destroy all reapers in the Local cluster and then dock with the Citadel to deliver the payload everywhere else?

My guess; They didn't know if it had one shot in it or several. This goes back to my points in Part II. I seems ridiculous to me that nobody knows how it will do what it is meant to do. We built the damn thing for christ's sake.  No idea at all? What was the point in researching dark matter theory or whatever if none of this stuff points to anything. What was it all for? Just by having these top scientist implies that we need people of understanding. As the story is laid out we could have just had a vorcha construction team build it off the blueprints.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[Fredvdp]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Quite a long read and I'm pretty tired so I'm sorry if this was mentioned before:

The problem I have with the backstory of the Crucible is that previous cycles built it when their mass relay networks were inactive. While humanity doesn't know how the Crucible works, previous civilizations weren't all in the dark. Why would they build the Crucible if they couldn't use it because of an inactive relay network? How did they expect to transport it to the Catalyst? And on a somewhat less related note, how did the protheans manage to fight the Reapers system by system (as Javik explained) if they didn't have working mass relays? Several plot elements in ME3 seem to betray that the ME3 writing team completely forgot about that one investigate option where Vigil explains that the Reapers shut down all the mass relays at the beginning of a cycle.

I too found this odd when speaking to Javik.

They could have figured out how to activate them one by one as needed. They did understand the technology enough to build one of their own even if it only traveled in one direction. However, none of this is ellaborated upon and it's the writer's job to fill holes. Not ours.

It's answered right here.  Apparantly using the Citadel was an idea added later.

How does that answer this exactly? Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because it's late in the evening where I live, but I don't see how that answers any of our questions.

The Crucible didn't originally use the mass relays, so there was no need for the Catalyst.  That answers your question of why they would use the Crucible despite not having the Catalyst  It wasn't originally intended to use the Catalyst.  Vendetta says "It is difficult to pinpoint when the Crucible plans were incorporated to make use of the Catalyst."

But can the Crucible work without the Citadel? The Crucible is an energy source. The function to destroy control, or force synthesis are functions of the Citadel which the Crucible enhances. While the Citadel wasn't originally part of its design, I believe the first civilizations that wanted to link the Crucible to the Citadel may have been the first civilization that wanted to use it to end the cycle. Before that, it was an energy source that could have been used for various reasons. Perhaps they had another doomsday device attached to it that got lost.

Still, the question remains. The moment the Crucible required the Citadel and the relay network, there is no way any of the civilizations believed it could have worked if they knew the relay network wasn't active. The only scenario that I can think of is that some civilizations knew the Reapers were coming and then built the Crucible in advance, not knowing the Reapers would turn off the relay network, making it impossible to deploy it.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 23 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[FlamingBoy]

I didn't think it was extended enough either, bioware finally has a decent excuse for this (compared to the tripe that they usually throw at us) something about Microsoft not allowing anything over 2 Gigs.

But you know what the old bioware would have found a way around that

[The Twilight God]

FlamingBoy wrote...

I didn't think it was extended enough either, bioware finally has a decent excuse for this (compared to the tripe that they usually throw at us) something about Microsoft not allowing anything over 2 Gigs.

But you know what the old bioware would have found a way around that

They have to release an actual expansion pack like Dragon Age: Origins Awakening. Some that cost around $39.99 but adds alot of new stuff to the game. Not just ending variation. There is so much stuff they can add to this game.

[The Twilight God]

I decided to continue in a new thread as the themes of the posts is more about adding content vs critiquing the current game.

http://social.biowar...355978#13355978