211 réponses à ce sujet

[Heals.like.Jesus]

Dark83 wrote...

There's nothing wrong with the mechanics.
A warrior in heavier armor takes less damage, and has higher defenses, as well as having a larger buffer of health. A mage takes more damage and has lower defenses, and is more frail. A lower quantity of health on a warrior is worth about the same as a higher quantity of health for a mage, in terms of survivability.

Arcane warriors, which EVERY pc turns his mage into has vastly superior armor to any tank, 75% resistances to elements and being immune to physicals and mental attacks.

In addition to taking next to nething as damage and being able to unleash hell in return, they also benefit from magic for the purpose of using the lesser potions to heal themselves to full.

So you really didnt say anything just now

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:10 .

[Heals.like.Jesus]

d-post

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:09 .

[FedericoV]

Dark83 wrote...

There's nothing wrong with the mechanics.
A warrior in heavier armor takes less damage, and has higher defenses, as well as having a larger buffer of health. A mage takes more damage and has lower defenses, and is more frail. A lower quantity of health on a warrior is worth about the same as a higher quantity of health for a mage, in terms of survivability.

Untrue. Mages is the class with higher surivvability in the game.

They do not need armour or hit points, they only need the right spells and it's done. 

The mechanic in itself doesnt not make a lot of sense, since the quality of the potion it's a property of the potion itself and not of the person who drinks it.

But in games there is the need of abstractions for the quality of gameplay so I don't mind the lack of common sense.

The only point is that mages do need just one stat (and lot lyrium potion) to be effective, even for healing, while a warrior have to choose between 6 stats. That's a ridiculous asimmetry in terms of game balance and simmetry between classes.

Honestly, DAO is great in terms of story, setting, dialogue, interactions, choices and consquences, companions, cutscene, etc. etc. etc.

But the RPG/Combat system is far from perfect and sadly is not developed as well as the story.

[addiction21]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

because health potions are not magical, and it makes much more sense that a healthy and tough body would benefit more from such a potion than a relatively frail one.

That is just your opnion and not any sort of fact. It seems BW had a different opnion then how potions should work in their world.

[Dark83]

Lovely how people have missed my point. Once again: In the context of the Health Potions by themselves, they are (roughly) equally as effective in terms of restoring ability to endure attacks for all classes via this mechanic. This has nothing to do with the basic survivability or ability of any particular class or build.
(Also, I had a mage ArcWar, he's boring. Won't be making one again.)

Modifié par Dark83, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:17 .

[Bibdy]

addiction21 wrote...

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

because health potions are not magical, and it makes much more sense that a healthy and tough body would benefit more from such a potion than a relatively frail one.

That is just your opnion and not any sort of fact. It seems BW had a different opnion then how potions should work in their world.

That doesn't automatically make it a good system, hence we're discussing it.

Define it logically or not, get it to fit with lore or not, however you want, shouldn't have any bearing on the gameplay one way or the other. Regardless of whichever direction you want to take the system, you can come up with a lore 'excuse' for it.

Some of us feel that the system penalises Warriors too much, and that it makes the Constitution stat, an already poor investment for only 5 hp per point, even weaker. Mages are more than capable of defending themselves without the use of potions thanks to all of their CC effects, being at the back of the line and more readily able to duck out of line of sight of archers etc. etc and anecdotally, its much, much more common that I blow health potions on my Warrior than my Mage, since that's his job - to take the damage.

[deathwing200]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...


Arcane warriors, which EVERY pc turns his mage into has vastly superior armor to any tank, 75% resistances to elements and being immune to physicals and mental attacks.

In addition to taking next to nething as damage and being able to unleash hell in return, they also benefit from magic for the purpose of using the lesser potions to heal themselves to full.

So you really didnt say anything just now

Arcane warrior is inferior to true warrior for one simple reason. I'll let you figure it out.

[Bibdy]

Dark83 wrote...

Lovely how people have missed my point. Once again: In the context of the Health Potions by themselves, they are (roughly) equally as effective in terms of restoring ability to endure attacks for all classes via this mechanic. This has nothing to do with the basic survivability or ability of any particular class or build.
(Also, I had a mage ArcWar, he's boring. Won't be making one again.)

That doesn't make it a good system...basic survivabilty and abilities should be counted, otherwise you end up with this situation - Mages being CC machines and able to stockpile lesser healing potions, and Warriors being gigantic money sinkholes due to having to use Potent and Greater healing potions constantly.

The amount of extra cash it costs you to use a Warrior to tank is IMMENSE compared to using an Arcane Warrior Mage, or just CC'ing the pants off everything. If money, consumables, crafting agents etc. weren't a factor, then it wouldn't be so bad, but the game was designed to be very tight with cash.

Its nice that in the later stages of the game, your lesser healing potions are still worthwhile to use with your Mages and your larger potions for your tougher characters, but when those super potions only heal 50% of the tank's health, and the weakest ones almost 100% of the Mage's, when the Mage takes far less damage overall (including defense and armor), there's a bit of a worrisome disparity there.

Modifié par Bibdy, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[SheffSteel]

Forget about the "healing potions are not magical" argument . Regardless of the mundane nature of their ingredients, the fact remains that potions have a magical effect (instant healing) and it is the magnitude of the effect that is under discussion.

Forget about the Magic skill of whoever brewed the potion affecting its potency. That is never going to happen for the simple reason that every potion would potentially be different - potions wouldn't stack if brewed by a different herbalist. You'd then have to worry about which exact brand of health potion you wanted to take at any given time - if you're just topping off, swig a darkspawn loot potion, but if you're near death, drink a Morrigan Special Brew. Run out of slots on the quickbar yet?

Fixed magnitude potions would be fine with me. I'm not particularly happy with the idea of something like CON boosting the effect. Warriors and Mages drinking healing potions are not as comparable as they might seem at first, either in terms of frequency or of required result. If your playstyle requires your warrior to chug healing potions so quickly that lesser potions and magical healing don't provide health quickly enough, I think you ought to resign yourself to paying the cost of the bigger potions.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[thegreateski]

Umm. . . why is it funny?

[Varenus Luckmann]

As I've suggested before:

Lyrium Poultices: MAG/WP

Stamina Poultices: CON/WP

Health Poultices: CON/WP/MAG

[Psython]

I think warriors and rogues should get a potion boost from con. That way, the more you increase your health, the more you can restore from different grade poultices. The issue is melee fighters dont have a "useful" (as in has a benefit to the character) stat that increases the healing from poultices. mages get magic which give better spellpower and other benefits(like better robes) AND helps with healing. Mages even have less health than a warrior meaning that a lesser poultice can completely heal a high level mage, while for a warrior a lesser pultice might only heal 20% of a characters health. Thats imbalanced IMO and one of the many reasons mages are the best.



Moving healing effects to con also means there is more of a reason to put points into con. Right now, con is lame because it is better to increase the chance to dodge attacks (or have enemies miss) and put the points in dex. This would help make con almost on par with other attributes.

[NewYears1978]

[quote]
You should know better than to ass-u-me.
[/quote]
Maybe if you'd provided a detailed explanation of why you find the mechanic so "hilarious" rather than "Just saying" people wouldn't just "ass-u-me"
[/quote]

Win.

[jth82]

in my opinion no stat should give a potion boost, instead it should be transferred to the herbalism skill

[Viglin]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

 

In
fairness, they're not magical are they? Considering they use natural
reagents and can be created by non-magic users, I doubt they're magical
(non lyrium at least). Still, there's not really a more fitting way of
increasing their yield.

Herbal drinks that cure sword wounds aren't magical? 

So all the natural ingridient medicines we have in our day and age in order to cure us of various illnesses are of arcane origin? If you cut yourself can only magic heal you?

Id love to pay a visit to the physician you go to.

Can you point me to the one that after one sip heals damage from;
-Swords, maces, arrows, boulders, traps
-Acid, fire, poison, frost, electrical

And you were doing so well...

[skotie]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

 

In
fairness, they're not magical are they? Considering they use natural
reagents and can be created by non-magic users, I doubt they're magical
(non lyrium at least). Still, there's not really a more fitting way of
increasing their yield.

Herbal drinks that cure sword wounds aren't magical? 

So all the natural ingridient medicines we have in our day and age in order to cure us of various illnesses are of arcane origin? If you cut yourself can only magic heal you?

Id love to pay a visit to the physician you go to.

I hardly think you could get shot 3 times in the chest, use a couple magic health poultices, then get right back up and jump into the action in real life.

Since this is a game and there are magic health poultices which allow you to do this then I would say yes, they are magical, in game they do nothing short of mimicking the heal spell which by description says it causes flesh to knit together miraculously, healing the player by a moderate amount. To me it makes sense that how well a magic poultices heals you is directly related to how well your body recieves and can use magic/magical items.

[Meneldhil]

deathwing200 wrote...

Arcane warrior is inferior to true warrior for one simple reason. I'll let you figure it out.

Care to enlighten us? As of now, Arcane Warriors can solo the game with ease (bar a few fights), on hard or nightmare. They can chain pot to endlessly use their abilities, and are more resilient than any other class in the game. They also have access to the best weapons.

[Dark83]

hm. You can't become King/Queen? Jowan's annoying? Hm...

[Darpaek]

Personally, I would have preferred the potion's power being tied to the magic skill of the maker instead of the drinker.

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

because health potions are not magical, and it makes much more sense that a healthy and tough body would benefit more from such a potion than a relatively frail one.

That is just your opnion and not any sort of fact. It seems BW had a different opnion then how potions should work in their world.

That doesn't automatically make it a good system, hence we're discussing it.

Doesn't automatically make it a bad system either or a hilarious one - it's the manner in which the game developers decided to implement the magic attributte and as far as I can see it works just fine and makes as much sense as it needs to - he who makes the game gets to make the rules too.

Define it logically or not, get it to fit with lore or not, however you want, shouldn't have any bearing on the gameplay one way or the other. Regardless of whichever direction you want to take the system, you can come up with a lore 'excuse' for it.

 what exactly is the IT you are speaking of that should have no bearing on gameplay????

Some of us feel that the system penalises Warriors too much, and that it makes the Constitution stat, an already poor investment for only 5 hp per point, even weaker. Mages are more than capable of defending themselves without the use of potions thanks to all of their CC effects, being at the back of the line and more readily able to duck out of line of sight of archers etc. etc and anecdotally, its much, much more common that I blow health potions on my Warrior than my Mage, since that's his job - to take the damage.

How does it penalize warriors at all to have magic give a boost to potions? If they want it then they can put some points in it- if they can't bear to spend any points in anything other than their prime stats then they don't get the benefit - it's a matter of choice - the game is certainly not designed in a manner that prohibits any but an uber power-build to be successful so the concept that a warrior can't spend any points in magic doesn't really fly. There are even some tool tips about this IIRC suggesting you might want to do just that.

Perhaps the developers were looking to build a game that was not designed specifically for the power build but instead offered a number of viable options for character creation and development for the player to choose from?

As for how magic giving a boost to potion use has any bearing at all on the contitution stat you have lost me entirely...

As for blowing potions on your warrior more so than your mage then thats all the more reason to give your warrior a few points to magic and EMBRACE the fact that the game offers such an option isn't it?

Unless of course the point is not to discover ways to play the game as it was designed but instead how to redesign the game to suit the way you wish to play.

[SheffSteel]

Darpaek, see the middle paragraph of my previous post.

[Gecon]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

All of you seem to suffer from collective misunderstandment. I know how the game works, i sheparded 3 characters through it on nightmare. You should know better than to ass-u-me.

I am merely commenting on the ridiculous mechanic.

Except of course:  there is nothing ridiculous about it. At least I cant see anything. Healing mages = cheap, healing Warriors = expensive. Whats there to complain ? You dont like it ? But thats only a question of taste, not some objective reason.

Darth_Shizz wrote...

In fairness, they're not magical are they?

If you know a way to heal instantly without an explanation like magic, PLEASE tell it the world.

Bibdy wrote...

Yeah, I don't much like that system,
either. Warriors have to worry about Str and Dex, Rogues care about Dex
and Cun, while Mages just worry about Magic (they all care about Will
or Con a little). You can happily just pump every available point you
have into magic and gain tons of benefits for it.

Which ones ? Potions work better and spells are stronger. End of list. No comparison to D&D, for example. There you gained a lot of skillpoints from Int.

Modifié par Gecon, 16 décembre 2009 - 08:25 .

[Mistwaver]

Understanding the mechanics of a game is legendary and beneficial.

[NetBeansAndJava]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

As I've suggested before:
Lyrium Poultices: MAG/WP
Stamina Poultices: CON/WP
Health Poultices: CON/WP/MAG

Not a bad idea, though that would make health poultices insanely good for mages.  ... though they already are due to the magic boost

Personally, I think it'd make more sense to just cut out the attribute bonus.  Make health poultices heal a flat amount or a percentage.  Nobody is boosting magic just for the healing bonus anyway (at least they shouldn't be).

[Bibdy]

wanderon wrote...

How does it penalize warriors at all to have magic give a boost to potions? If they want it then they can put some points in it- if they can't bear to spend any points in anything other than their prime stats then they don't get the benefit - it's a matter of choice - the game is certainly not designed in a manner that prohibits any but an uber power-build to be successful so the concept that a warrior can't spend any points in magic doesn't really fly. There are even some tool tips about this IIRC suggesting you might want to do just that.

Perhaps the developers were looking to build a game that was not designed specifically for the power build but instead offered a number of viable options for character creation and development for the player to choose from?

As for how magic giving a boost to potion use has any bearing at all on the contitution stat you have lost me entirely...

As for blowing potions on your warrior more so than your mage then thats all the more reason to give your warrior a few points to magic and EMBRACE the fact that the game offers such an option isn't it?

Unless of course the point is not to discover ways to play the game as it was designed but instead how to redesign the game to suit the way you wish to play.

That concept is all well and good, but why do Mages get a free-pass out of that system? Mages can just stack Magic, all day long, level 1 to 25. Absolutely no penalty for doing that. Why are Warriors and Rogues special? Why do they have to diversify, and THEN find space in their tight regime of trying to get 30 Cunning to open all Locks in the game, 42 Str to wear all armour in the game (for Warriors), 20 str to use the good 1-hand weapons and leather armour on a Rogue etc. and THEN expected to put points into the Magic attribute to improve their use of potions, and that's ALL they get per point of magic besides a little mental resistance.

Where's the real benefit there? Where's the penalty to the Mages? God help us all if they finally make Will and Con more attractive options for Warriors. What do Warriors and Rogues get out the 'potions being linked to Magic' system other than they literally can't improve their use of potions without a huge cost in attribute points? Every level on a Warrior character I NEVER look at the Magic stat and go "Ooh, if I put a point into this, I'll gain an extra 4 health on a Potent Health Poultice! WHOOPIE!"