211 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonfon_ire]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I'd
As I've suggested before:
Lyrium Poultices: MAG/WP
Stamina Poultices: CON/WP
Health Poultices: CON/WP/MAG

Con/Magic for Health surely. No need to give it 3 stats. And even then it gives Blood mages a bit of a boost (which I'm not sure they need). Actually I'd probably say Con/WP for it too.

Also I'd limit Lyrium to just one stat, certainly not Mag & WP. Personally I'd pick just WP since it's also the "How much mana do you have" stat anyway. 

I'd also change Stamina so it gets boosted from WP and Con as well (but not Mana), giving a more valid reason for people to pick Con for a stat. As it is its pretty much ignored.

Modifié par Jonfon_ire, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

wanderon wrote...

How does it penalize warriors at all to have magic give a boost to potions? If they want it then they can put some points in it- if they can't bear to spend any points in anything other than their prime stats then they don't get the benefit - it's a matter of choice - the game is certainly not designed in a manner that prohibits any but an uber power-build to be successful so the concept that a warrior can't spend any points in magic doesn't really fly. There are even some tool tips about this IIRC suggesting you might want to do just that.

Perhaps the developers were looking to build a game that was not designed specifically for the power build but instead offered a number of viable options for character creation and development for the player to choose from?

As for how magic giving a boost to potion use has any bearing at all on the contitution stat you have lost me entirely...

As for blowing potions on your warrior more so than your mage then thats all the more reason to give your warrior a few points to magic and EMBRACE the fact that the game offers such an option isn't it?

Unless of course the point is not to discover ways to play the game as it was designed but instead how to redesign the game to suit the way you wish to play.

That concept is all well and good, but why do Mages get a free-pass out of that system? Mages can just stack Magic, all day long, level 1 to 25. Absolutely no penalty for doing that. Why are Warriors and Rogues special? Why do they have to diversify, and THEN find space in their tight regime of trying to get 30 Cunning to open all Locks in the game, 42 Str to wear all armour in the game (for Warriors), 20 str to use the good 1-hand weapons and leather armour on a Rogue etc. and THEN expected to put points into the Magic attribute to improve their use of potions, and that's ALL they get per point of magic besides a little mental resistance.

Where's the real benefit there? Where's the penalty to the Mages? God help us all if they finally make Will and Con more attractive options for Warriors. What do Warriors and Rogues get out the 'potions being linked to Magic' system other than they literally can't improve their use of potions without a huge cost in attribute points? Every level on a Warrior character I NEVER look at the Magic stat and go "Ooh, if I put a point into this, I'll gain an extra 4 health on a Potent Health Poultice! WHOOPIE!"

Perhaps the game was intentionally designed so that not every single option and not every single piece of equipment was meant to be available for every single character? That one might use option A for one playthrough and option B for another?

Why does any class have to punished or penalized? This is not an MMO or MP RPG it's a party based SINGLE PLAYER game designed for a team of four characters - mages are typically glass canons in these games so if you need to spend out your butt to keep your warrior alive then isn't making a mages heal potions work better becuase of his magic ability A GOOD THING? Would it be better if every single class had to sepnd out there butts to stay alive?

Don't you think the designers considered that every single party was likely to have a mage and a warrior and probably a rogue? So if all those compoments are present why do they have to be equal?

[Bibdy]

It doesn't have to be. I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for a discussion about the mechanics. I'd rather you stopped arguing with the fundamental idea that I am/am not allowed to discuss something, and actually focus on the discussion itself.

Potions suck for tanks. Why? Because they scale off the Magic attribute, and not total health or some other attribute, like Con. Why? I don't know. Why did the developers think that Magic was a good idea to scale health potions off? Mages already have low health anyway, so a lower-grade potion is ALREADY sufficient for them to max out their health, so why do tanks have to use health potions that cost a ton of money and not even get anywhere near the same benefit?

Its not a matter of "Oh, Mages get to use weak potions, tanks don't. Unfair! Nerf plz bliz". Its a matter of "Wow, these potions SUCK for tanks. Why the hell does it scale off a stat I wouldn't spend points in regularly, and is only worthwhile in vast quantities when I only get 4 extra health per point on the top-tier potion?". Spend an entire level worth of attribute points on Magic and you gained 12 health on a Potent Health Poultice, and a teeny bit of Mental Resistance. Whoop-dee-doo? That doesn't feel like a viable option to spend attribute points on. What it does feel like is a penalty for a high health pool.

Modifié par Bibdy, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:07 .

[Shadesofsiknas]

Seems like another game mecganic that makes Mages all powerful.

[adam_nox]

I find it sad how many bad game apologists there are on this forum. A potion is not magical. It's alchemical. it's made with ingredients. It doesn't make sense for it to heal more or less on someone. It never has in any other game I've played either.

[SheffSteel]

adam nox, please see the first paragraph of my first post

Modifié par SheffSteel, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[fluffyamoeba]

If only they'd left the lyrium addiction in... I think it was designed with that in mind, then not properly rebalenced after it was removed. As soon as you can't chain drink lyrium potions, playing a mage with no points put in willpower is really difficult. "I've cast a tier 4 spell... er... that's it for this fight".

[fro7k]

I think poultices should heal either by a fraction of max hp or a constant, whichever is highest.

[rmp]

I think some developers at Bioware didn't like the idea of having a strictly mage-only stat, so they dreamed up this system in which magic could provide some kind of benefit to non mages. I doubt they said "Magic should increase healing".. I bet it was more like "We need to think of something magic can do for warriors and rogues.... hmmm, let's see, oh I know, let's make it increase healing!"

Modifié par rmp, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[Bibdy]

rmp wrote...

I think some developers at Bioware didn't like the idea of having a strictly mage-only stat, so they dreamed up this system in which magic could provide some kind of benefit to non mages. I doubt they said "Magic should increase healing".. I bet it was more like "We need to think of something magic can do for warriors and rogues.... hmmm, let's see, oh I know, let's make it increase healing!"

Ehh, if it affected incoming heal spells, too...sure. But, they didn't do that. Just potion healing. And it doesn't seem like they applied that to Mages, trying to find a mild benefit for Str, Dex and Cunn for them.

There's nothing terribly wrong with Magic affecting healing potions, it just feels like Warriors and Rogues got the short end of the stick when 60 Magic increases the effect by 50%, and 10 Magic increases it by 0. That's a BIG jump in the amount healed, for a stat which a Mage wants by default and stacked a ton of points into by the end of the game.

Its nice that Lesser Healing potions are still useful to Mages later in the game, while you save your larger potions for the characters with lots more health, its just crazy that a Normal Healing potion heals a Mage for more than a Potent Health Poultice on a Warrior by the end of the game.

Modifié par Bibdy, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[OneBadAssMother]

This is why a mage heal spell > warrior drinking his own potion

[rmp]

Bibdy wrote...


Ehh, if it affected incoming heal spells, too...sure. But, they didn't do that. Just potion healing.

They just didn't want to complicate the matter by using both the caster's magic stat and the recepient's.

[mmu1]

The lore is irrelevant, It's simply a very badly designed system. It makes health potions really effective for the one class with the least need for rapid HP recovery and inherent access to healing magic, and makes them much less effective for the classes that need them the most.

Oh, and it also rewards mages for stacking magic and ingoring willpower by giving them even more bang for their buck when it comes to Lyrium potions, and helps to make Blood Magic just a little bit more ridiculous.

Modifié par mmu1, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:14 .

[sleepy__head]

Associating the amount a potion heals based on how high a character's Magic attribute is, is akin to :

You and your roommate both have a sinus infection.  The doctor prescribed antibotics for you both.

1.  You are majoring in computer science, so the antibotics will make you less sick in 2 weeks.
2.  Your roommate is pre-meds, so the antibiotics will make him less sick in 1 week.

Logical?  I didn't think so.

Modifié par sleepy__head, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:16 .

[TheNecroFiend]

sleepy__head wrote...

Associating the amount a potion heals based on how high a character's Magic attribute is, is akin to :

You and your roommate both have a sinus infection.  The doctor prescribed antibotics for you both.

1.  You are majoring in computer science, so the antibotics will make you less sick in 2 weeks.
2.  Your roommate is pre-meds, so the antibiotics will make him less sick in 1 week.

Logical?  I didn't think so.

Terrible analogy. The ability to learn either is not dependant on your genetic disposition. In DA magical ability is something your born with.

[Statue]

Potions are for some game lore reason more effective for characters with high magic (well, that's what some are arguing in this thread). I have to question that rationalization.

How is it that when a mage casts a heal spell on a character, the target's magic skill has no bearing on how much they're healed for? Not saying it should, just that it doesn't, and that is inconsistent with the way potions work. Here's the standard heal spell mechanics for DAO: Instantly heals target for (100 + Spellpower) * 0.4. Not modified by the target's magic stat.

So the "well, potions are magical so work better on magical characters" rationale offered in this thread for why potions are dependent upon the drinker's magic stat appears to ignore how non-potion magical healing works and is thus a bit tenuous.

Modifié par Statue, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:32 .

[Dark83]

Some people respond better to the flu vaccine - some people die from the vaccine. C'est la vie.

[reepneep]

wanderon wrote...
Perhaps the game was intentionally designed so that not every single option and not every single piece of equipment was meant to be available for every single character? That one might use option A for one playthrough and option B for another?

Why does any class have to punished or penalized? This is not an MMO or MP RPG it's a party based SINGLE PLAYER game designed for a team of four characters - mages are typically glass canons in these games so if you need to spend out your butt to keep your warrior alive then isn't making a mages heal potions work better becuase of his magic ability A GOOD THING? Would it be better if every single class had to sepnd out there butts to stay alive?

Don't you think the designers considered that every single party was likely to have a mage and a warrior and probably a rogue? So if all those compoments are present why do they have to be equal?

So health potions weren't meant for warriors?  The class whose major purpose is to soak damage gets gimped potions?  The only class for whom they're genuinely effective is the only one that doesn't need them?  Genius I say!

As was said earlier, they probably just wanted to give mundanes a reason to put points in their magic stat and this was the best they could come up with.  I think they should have simply left the mundanes with only 5 stats and only the awakened get the sixth.  It works just fine in Shadowrun.

Modifié par reepneep, 17 décembre 2009 - 01:33 .

[DragonRageGT]

Spell casters may take all lesser potions... I like the Potent ones... more like me... hehe .. oh.. and no points in magic, two handed warrior, tank as well as DPS, no mages in my party and NM kinda of big deal thing.



Next someone will start a thread to complain that level up is too easy and we need geometric progressive points requirements... *sighs*

[Heals.like.Jesus]

rmp wrote...

I think some developers at Bioware didn't like the idea of having a strictly mage-only stat, so they dreamed up this system in which magic could provide some kind of benefit to non mages. I doubt they said "Magic should increase healing".. I bet it was more like "We need to think of something magic can do for warriors and rogues.... hmmm, let's see, oh I know, let's make it increase healing!"

Then why the double standard?

If they indeed wanted to make magic be even remotely useful as a wariror/rogue, why do mages dont have any remote use for STR dex, cunning or even CON?

Rogues have to go all over the place - cunning for various abilities, STR for armor, DEX for general purpose, CON because rogues die easiest. Dual wield/shield warriors also invest heavily in DEX which leaves them behind on STR, thus warriors get Massive armors very late, and still need CON, willpower to use abilities for which there is no potion.

Turns out its OK for mages to get literally everything, including Maddive armors and greater healing along with everything else just with magic, but its not ok for the 2 other classes to dump everything into 1 stat as well to get an increase in every area.

EDIT: For those who say "I dont find/What is hilarious about it?" in regards to the title, I'll ask - do you not find it ridicilous that my mage fills 65% health of his 63 armor, Immune to every effect and highly resistant to  elemental damage being with e lesser potion  while a tank fills 50% with a potent one?

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:33 .

[sleepy__head]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

sleepy__head wrote...

Associating the amount a potion heals based on how high a character's Magic attribute is, is akin to :

You and your roommate both have a sinus infection.  The doctor prescribed antibotics for you both.

1.  You are majoring in computer science, so the antibotics will make you less sick in 2 weeks.
2.  Your roommate is pre-meds, so the antibiotics will make him less sick in 1 week.

Logical?  I didn't think so.

Terrible analogy. The ability to learn either is not dependant on your genetic disposition. In DA magical ability is something your born with.

If it is just something you are born with, then you would never be able to IMPROVE it now, would you?  On the other hand, if it is something you can learn, then you can increase it as your character gains experience, just like in the game.

[rmp]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

rmp wrote...

I think some developers at Bioware didn't like the idea of having a strictly mage-only stat, so they dreamed up this system in which magic could provide some kind of benefit to non mages. I doubt they said "Magic should increase healing".. I bet it was more like "We need to think of something magic can do for warriors and rogues.... hmmm, let's see, oh I know, let's make it increase healing!"

Then why the double standard?

If they indeed wanted to make magic be even remotely useful as a wariror/rogue, why do mages dont have any remote use for STR dex, cunning or even CON?

The double standard exists regardless of the true reason they made magic a stat for non mages. But for those other ones you mentioned, while I wouldn't allocate any of my points to them as a mage, I was happy enough to receive them when I was getting them for free in the fade, since they all provide some benefit, even if very small... except strength, which serves no purpose at all for a mage.

[Heals.like.Jesus]

I can tell you that other than magic and a trivial amount of willpower and con, I didnt get anything else on an arcane warrior, and the 90% magic to 6% willpower and 4% CON, saw me through to the game on nightmare, no probs.



And since spellpower increases armor, defence and other mage buffs' effectiveness, that means magic is the only thing you need for damage, survival, and healing. In addition to magical robes not requiring any stat to be worn.

[FedericoV]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

If only they'd left the lyrium addiction in... I think it was designed with that in mind, then not properly rebalenced after it was removed. As soon as you can't chain drink lyrium potions, playing a mage with no points put in willpower is really difficult. "I've cast a tier 4 spell... er... that's it for this fight".

As far as I remember a developer said in the forum that the lyrium addiction has to be removed because mages weren't working so well and were't so fun to play without lyrium potions. And I understand that you can't ask a mage player to be the one who "cast a spell and then wait the end of the battle". But that's what most of rogue and warrior players do in most battles: they use a talent or two and then autoattack. At least they should have left stamina potions...

Honestly the whole point is that the whole stamina/mana and talents costs part of the system is far from perfect and wasn't developed very well.

First of all because mana/stamina system are not very suited for party rpgs (I mean, a system like DA:O doesn't allow an action queue... wich would have improved the gameplay a lot considering that you have to control 4 charachters and not 1 and that  AI and tactics sucks baddly and are useful only for easier difficulty settings). I mean DAO system is like Diablo II and Titan Quest for 4 charachters... not a great idea. Now you have to pause the system every second if you want to manage properly your group.

Then, because the costs of talent and spells do not even make sense imho (ant they have to use lyrium potion as a bandaid fix to solve the problem on the fly).

[deathwing200]

Meneldhil wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

Arcane warrior is inferior to true warrior for one simple reason. I'll let you figure it out.

Care to enlighten us? As of now, Arcane Warriors can solo the game with ease (bar a few fights), on hard or nightmare. They can chain pot to endlessly use their abilities, and are more resilient than any other class in the game. They also have access to the best weapons.

In party play, AW is mediocre and pure nuking/healing mage is always better if you want to quickly blast through the fights.

The reason AW is bad in parties is because it is a meatshield without threat. That's why it will never hold a candle to a true tank.