211 réponses à ce sujet

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

It doesn't have to be. I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for a discussion about the mechanics. I'd rather you stopped arguing with the fundamental idea that I am/am not allowed to discuss something, and actually focus on the discussion itself.

Potions suck for tanks. Why? Because they scale off the Magic attribute, and not total health or some other attribute, like Con. Why? I don't know. Why did the developers think that Magic was a good idea to scale health potions off? Mages already have low health anyway, so a lower-grade potion is ALREADY sufficient for them to max out their health, so why do tanks have to use health potions that cost a ton of money and not even get anywhere near the same benefit?

Its not a matter of "Oh, Mages get to use weak potions, tanks don't. Unfair! Nerf plz bliz". Its a matter of "Wow, these potions SUCK for tanks. Why the hell does it scale off a stat I wouldn't spend points in regularly, and is only worthwhile in vast quantities when I only get 4 extra health per point on the top-tier potion?". Spend an entire level worth of attribute points on Magic and you gained 12 health on a Potent Health Poultice, and a teeny bit of Mental Resistance. Whoop-dee-doo? That doesn't feel like a viable option to spend attribute points on. What it does feel like is a penalty for a high health pool.

Where did I infer you were not allowed to discuss anything? I thought a discussion was when ALL sides of a topic are represented not just one side...

As for potions sucking they are what they are for all classes - the fact that high magic attributtes increase thier usefulness is something that all classes can participate in if they wish to - the fact that mages have more use for the magic stat in no way diminishes the NORMAL use of potions for other classes.

If you don't think it's worth it to add magic to your warrior then don't but that doesn't mean the game is somehow broken becuase you want your warrior to get as much from potion use as the mage does - the warrior has other benefits the mage doesn't have just becuase the mage gets a cookie doesn't mean everyone has to have one or the game is broken.

Once again this is a PARTY based game - it's not warrior vs mage it's PCs party vs the darkspawn - if the mage gets a bonus to healing from his magic attribuute it's a good thing for the PARTY cuz it helps him stay alive and assist the poor defenseless warrior who doesn't get that bonus. There is nothing inherently wrong wih that picture.

[wanderon]

reepneep wrote...

wanderon wrote...
Perhaps the game was intentionally designed so that not every single option and not every single piece of equipment was meant to be available for every single character? That one might use option A for one playthrough and option B for another?

Why does any class have to punished or penalized? This is not an MMO or MP RPG it's a party based SINGLE PLAYER game designed for a team of four characters - mages are typically glass canons in these games so if you need to spend out your butt to keep your warrior alive then isn't making a mages heal potions work better becuase of his magic ability A GOOD THING? Would it be better if every single class had to sepnd out there butts to stay alive?

Don't you think the designers considered that every single party was likely to have a mage and a warrior and probably a rogue? So if all those compoments are present why do they have to be equal?

So health potions weren't meant for warriors?  The class whose major purpose is to soak damage gets gimped potions?  The only class for whom they're genuinely effective is the only one that doesn't need them?  Genius I say!

As was said earlier, they probably just wanted to give mundanes a reason to put points in their magic stat and this was the best they could come up with.  I think they should have simply left the mundanes with only 5 stats and only the awakened get the sixth.  It works just fine in Shadowrun.

Potions work as intended for ALL classes - the fact that mages have high magic attributtes and that this increases the benefits for potions is a bonus above and beyond normal potion use - the fact that most people playing a warrior or rogue will not benefit as much from this bonus since their magic stat is probably lower does not mean the potion is gimped - it still performs as described.

[Gracchio]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

In fairness, they're not magical are they? Considering they use natural reagents and can be created by non-magic users, I doubt they're magical (non lyrium at least). Still, there's not really a more fitting way of increasing their yield.

Yes because you can order drinks on the internet which do stuff like cure cancer and regrow limbs.

There's nothing remotely magical about that.

You should probably read about the tranquil or maybe recall a certain little dwarven boy who is as far as I know, no mage yet he is great with magical items.

[Heals.like.Jesus]

deathwing200 wrote...

Meneldhil wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

Arcane warrior is inferior to true warrior for one simple reason. I'll let you figure it out.

Care to enlighten us? As of now, Arcane Warriors can solo the game with ease (bar a few fights), on hard or nightmare. They can chain pot to endlessly use their abilities, and are more resilient than any other class in the game. They also have access to the best weapons.

In party play, AW is mediocre and pure nuking/healing mage is always better if you want to quickly blast through the fights.

The reason AW is bad in parties is because it is a meatshield without threat. That's why it will never hold a candle to a true tank.

If you are really using arcane wariors that way then you are sorely out of place to complain about them not being useful, when you play them in the worst way possible.

Arcane warrior is used just like any other mage - if you play with sustaineds only and simply charge with a weapon all the time, know that it is idiotic to play a warrior when you are a mage. You have passive protection, you cast spells.

My arcane wariror spent around 8% of his time using arcane might mode, and even that is too much because you can always simply quaff one dirt-cheap mana pot and continue to lay on the hurt.

You play arcane warriors badly and then claim they are inferior to warriors, when the entire board is shouting "AW/Blood mage is OP!!11one"

Score for you.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 17 décembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[Heals.like.Jesus]

Potions work as intended for ALL classes - the fact that mages have high magic attributtes and that this increases the benefits for potions is a bonus above and beyond normal potion use - the fact that most people playing a warrior or rogue will not benefit as much from this bonus since their magic stat is probably lower does not mean the potion is gimped - it still performs as described.

Way to use ridiculous belittlement to get your point across.

Lets review the stupid in your post:

1)Potions work as intended for ALL classes*   - you consider that the class that gets least damaged and stays the furthest behind and heals for triple the amount the class that tanks and eats all the damage is "working as intended."

2)people playing a warrior or rogue will not benefit as much from this bonus since their magic stat is probably lower -*   you say a warrior/rogue's stats is PROBABLY, JUST, PROBABLY lower than that of a mage, do you? Could it be that you assume that warriors and rogues PROBABLY have less magic at 20-th level than 20 level mages with 80 magic.

3)it still performs as described.*    - so you automatically assume that since something is working the way it is described, then it is, by definition, the right way and by no means can be faulty? That since it works in this way, it is set in stone that this is how it is right?

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 17 décembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[SheffSteel]

Here it is without the stupid.

Potions are working as intended. The designers decided that the effectiveness of a potion is increased by the drinker's Magic. We all agree that that's what happens ingame. Q.E.D.

From a lore perspective, consider that the drinker's body converts the potion's ingredients into a magical effect. This is roughly analogous to a spell-caster converting Mana into a magical effect. In both cases, a high Magic attribute increases the power of the effect. Some might argue that instant healing is not a magical effect. If you're chasing stupid, it went thataway.

From a game theory perspective, any character who invests in Magic gains a reward in this fashion. The counter-argument to this is that Magic is too useful as an attribute, i.e. that there are too many rewards. There's a good case to be made there, but surely the extra healing gained by mages - probably the class that is most desperate for a few extra hit points when it really matters - isn't going to be Exhibit A in anyone's evidence.
If you have a problem with Warriors having to drink large heal potions, I can't help you.
If you have a problem with Arcane Warriors, I suspect there is... rather more to it... than how cheap it is to heal them.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:48 .

[deathwing200]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...


If you are really using arcane wariors that way then you are sorely out of place to complain about them not being useful, when you play them in the worst way possible.

Arcane warrior is used just like any other mage - if you play with ustaineds only and simply charge with a weapon all the time, know that it is idiotic to play a warrior when you are a mage. You have passive protection, tyou cast spells.

Assuming you're not soloing, I have to ask, why? Why do you need AW? My mages never ever die (on nightmare) because my taunting tank eats up all the damage, while mages can dps away without any fatigue penalties of sustained abilities. Even if mage gains aggro, he can easily chain CC until the target is dead or the tank picks it back up.

My warcane wariror spent around 8% of his time using arcane might mode, and even that is too much because you can always simply quaff one dirt-cheap mana pot and continue to lay on the hurt.

Exactly, you'd be better off not picking AW at all. Mages should not be running any buffs either. In party play mana is more valuable when spent on healing/damage rather than crutch survivability spells, which any decent player doesn't need.

You play arcane warriors badly and then claim they are inferior to warriors, when the entire board is shouting "AW/Blood mage is OP!!11one"

Score for you.

The AW/BM is OP thing stems from the fact that most people posting here are really awful at this game and don't realize that having a tank + 2 nukers is better than having tank+nuker+useless meatshield. People also have no idea how to keep their mages alive in a party, so they must rely on broken survivability of AW, while a true min-maxer understands that AW is actually a really bad spec if you're not soloing.

Modifié par deathwing200, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Dark83]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

Lets review the stupid in your post:

1)Potions work as intended for ALL classes*   - you consider that the class that gets least damaged and stays the furthest behind and heals for triple the amount the class that tanks and eats all the damage is "working as intended."

Ignoring the "working as intended" which was already pointed out as being absolutely correct, once again I must point out that raw health numbers mean nothing. Someone in massive armor with a high defense score and a shield, gets more milage out of the same amount of health that someone in a bathrobe and a dorky hat has.

[Bibdy]

wanderon wrote...

Where did I infer you were not allowed to discuss anything? I thought a discussion was when ALL sides of a topic are represented not just one side...

As for potions sucking they are what they are for all classes - the fact that high magic attributtes increase thier usefulness is something that all classes can participate in if they wish to - the fact that mages have more use for the magic stat in no way diminishes the NORMAL use of potions for other classes.

If you don't think it's worth it to add magic to your warrior then don't but that doesn't mean the game is somehow broken becuase you want your warrior to get as much from potion use as the mage does - the warrior has other benefits the mage doesn't have just becuase the mage gets a cookie doesn't mean everyone has to have one or the game is broken.

Once again this is a PARTY based game - it's not warrior vs mage it's PCs party vs the darkspawn - if the mage gets a bonus to healing from his magic attribuute it's a good thing for the PARTY cuz it helps him stay alive and assist the poor defenseless warrior who doesn't get that bonus. There is nothing inherently wrong wih that picture.

Stop overreacting. I never said the game was broken. I have repeated several times that this wasn't a Mage vs Warrior argument in my last post and explained why. I also said that just because the option is there, doesn't make it a good option. Ergo, I think there's a problem and I think it should be addressed. That doesn't imply broken. It implies I care about the game and I want to contribute to making it better. The "Bioware made it, so its perfect" mantra is getting old in these discussions. I wish people could come up with an actual argument derived beyond that.

These discussions would be a lot more interesting if people would stop with the "Its obviously intended game design, therefore you're wrong".

Until you can give me a good reason why potions SHOULDN'T scale better for Warriors or Rogues, I really don't have anything else to discuss.

Modifié par Bibdy, 17 décembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[Statue]

I'm still waiting for a reframe of the game lore rationale that addresses why target magic is involved for potions but not for heal spells. I pointed out that discrepency in the logic earlier in this thread but the same rationale has been offered since without addressing it. The other but equally tenuous defence along the lines of "potions works as described" is a classic tautological defence of how something works if ever I saw one. Ethnic cleansing works exactly as it's described in the dictionary, but of course that has no bearing on whether it should be considered a good thing; similarly, the fact that potions work as described has no bearing on whether the way they work is sound or not.

As described and as experienced in-game, potions work better for mages, and it is perfectly reasonable to question why that is and whether it is a good thing and whether it makes sense in any way according to gameplay, the game world, and its lore.

The reasoning behind that questioning cannot be dismissed by appeals to a self-conflicting world lore rationale that relies upon cherry-picking (since target magic moderates the magical effects of potions - but not the magical effects of healing spells) and completely ignores the value for gameplay, or by the tautology that potions simply work as described.

What's being sought is a sound gameplay reason as to why potions should function more effectively for mages. Either there is one and nobody has mentioned it yet*, or there isn't one and perhaps it isn't best that they function that way.



*I can't consider the following to be sound gameplay reasons in the forms they've so far appeared: "potions are magical so the magical power of the target enhances their function" (that's not a gameplay reason, it's an appeal to assumed game lore to explain a gameplay feature that fails to account for why that should be the case for potions but not heal spells - or other spells - and doesn't at all address whether that feature is sound or not); "they work as described" (that's not a gameplay reason at all, it's a statement as to whether potions work as described and nothing more); "it's a way of making the magic stat useful for non-mage classes" (that's the closest to a gameplay reason of the three, but raises questions of its own - what is the gameplay need addressed by ensuring the magic stat has some use to tanks and granting mages another perk over other classes?)

Modifié par Statue, 17 décembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[SheffSteel]

I've already used game lore to rationalise why magic affects potions but not heal spells. The same rationale explains why target magic does not increase the damage taken from attack spells, or the effect received from any other spell for that matter. It is a question of who produces the magical effect.

[Bibdy]

Lore really doesn't matter. Whichever route you pick, you can always come up with a lore excuse for it.

Heal spells only affected by caster's Magic = heal strength derived directly from the caster's power, not the subject's susceptibility to magic.

Heal spells only affected by target's Magic = heal strength derived directly from subject's susceptibility to magic, not the caster's strength.

And likewise for health potions. And they don't necessarily have to follow the same rule. One is effectively a Surgeon's ability to mend a wound, the other is the body's reaction to a bottle of liquid.

Its not especially difficult to bend the lore to your whims in this case.

Modifié par Bibdy, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[SheffSteel]

Bibdy wrote...

Lore really doesn't matter. Whichever route you pick, you can always come up with a lore excuse for it.

The interesting cases are those game mechanics that just can't be justified by the lore. Those tend to stick out as examples of "design by diktat"... until/unless the lore gets rewritten. Being able to consume unlimited lyrium without penalty might be an example.

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

wanderon wrote...

Where did I infer you were not allowed to discuss anything? I thought a discussion was when ALL sides of a topic are represented not just one side...

As for potions sucking they are what they are for all classes - the fact that high magic attributtes increase thier usefulness is something that all classes can participate in if they wish to - the fact that mages have more use for the magic stat in no way diminishes the NORMAL use of potions for other classes.

If you don't think it's worth it to add magic to your warrior then don't but that doesn't mean the game is somehow broken becuase you want your warrior to get as much from potion use as the mage does - the warrior has other benefits the mage doesn't have just becuase the mage gets a cookie doesn't mean everyone has to have one or the game is broken.

Once again this is a PARTY based game - it's not warrior vs mage it's PCs party vs the darkspawn - if the mage gets a bonus to healing from his magic attribuute it's a good thing for the PARTY cuz it helps him stay alive and assist the poor defenseless warrior who doesn't get that bonus. There is nothing inherently wrong wih that picture.

Stop overreacting. I never said the game was broken. I have repeated several times that this wasn't a Mage vs Warrior argument in my last post and explained why. I also said that just because the option is there, doesn't make it a good option. Ergo, I think there's a problem and I think it should be addressed. That doesn't imply broken. It implies I care about the game and I want to contribute to making it better. The "Bioware made it, so its perfect" mantra is getting old in these discussions. I wish people could come up with an actual argument derived beyond that.

These discussions would be a lot more interesting if people would stop with the "Its obviously intended game design, therefore you're wrong".

Until you can give me a good reason why potions SHOULDN'T scale better for Warriors or Rogues, I really don't have anything else to discuss.

Who is over reacting here? The person who thinks the game is working fine as designed or the one who insists that becuase this design means his mage gets more use from a potion than his warrior does that it must be fixed becuase he doesn't like it that way.

The fact is that some people happen to agree that the designers have done a fine job with this game and others wish to pick the game apart and change it to suit their own vision of how things should be - how does having one side step aside and stop contributing make any discussion between them more interesting?

A good reason why the potions don't scale differently?
 
Becuase thats not how they were intended to work?
Becuase as it is the bonus helps the class with the lowest health which makes perfectly good sense from a game design standpoint?
Becuase there is nothing wrong with how they work now?
Becuase this makes sense from a game lore standpoint as well?
All of the above?

The argument on the other side of the ball seems rooted in the min/max number crunch playstyle that some prefer where nothing is right until you can exploit the max benefit in any area for any character you wish to play with. (Warriors should not have to waste points in magic to get the benefit they should get it becuase they can use it)

I'm not interested in seeing the game changed simply to accomodate those who may prefer this playstyle becuase I have other things I would rather see the devs spending their zots on like new content instead becuase yes I am mostly satisfied with the manner in which the game works currently.

[Bibdy]

You're still using the "Its intended, therefore you're wrong" argument.



Tell me why healing potions shouldn't scale with a main stat for Warriors and Rogues.

[Marionetten]

Make healing and lyrium potions percentage based. Remove the bonus from magic. Add stamina potions so that warriors and rogues can finally do something other than endlessly whine.



Problem solved.

[addiction21]

Marionetten wrote...

Make healing and lyrium potions percentage based. Remove the bonus from magic. Add stamina potions so that warriors and rogues can finally do something other than endlessly whine.

Problem solved.

You must be new to the internet. The problem is never solved. No matter what you do there will be a vocal group yelling about how it is wrong, broken, and needs to be fixed.

[Statue]

SheffSteel wrote...

I've already used game lore to rationalise why magic affects potions but not heal spells. The same rationale explains why target magic does not increase the damage taken from attack spells, or the effect received from any other spell for that matter. It is a question of who produces the magical effect.

I disagree that your posts *used* game lore to rationalize why. You *created* game lore to rationalize how; specifically, you added the notion that herbalists imbue healing items with latent magical effects that await use and then interact with the user's magical skill. With enough ingenuity, one can create game lore rationales to account for any possible issue. That would be a far better justification of *how* potions work as they do if it was rooted in the lore as provided rather than in extensions to the lore. Regardless, whether we could contrive a suitable game lore rationale for it or not (coming to terms with *how* it works as it does), the gameplay reasoning behind it is still missing (the *why*).

Modifié par Statue, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:18 .

[Bibdy]

Marionetten wrote...

Make healing and lyrium potions percentage based. Remove the bonus from magic. Add stamina potions so that warriors and rogues can finally do something other than endlessly whine.

Problem solved.

Wouldn't work, because Lesser Healing Potions that, for example, only healed 20% of total health, would be too weak early in the game.

There's a lot of merit in having a system which has both a base value and a scaling value in almost every calculation.

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

You're still using the "Its intended, therefore you're wrong" argument.

Tell me why healing potions shouldn't scale with a main stat for Warriors and Rogues.

No I'm using the:
 
"it's intended and it works fine so why do you insist it needs to be changed to suit your whims instead of accepting that it's currently working as the designers wish it to?" 

It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter of personal opinions about how the game is working and whether or not it needs to be changed.

[Bibdy]

Err, because I want to contribute to DA:O being a better game, rather than keep quiet about things that I find to be a problem and join the great, big handjob party on the forums?



OH MAH GAHD! SOMEONE SPEEKIN DER MIND! WE MUST CRUSH HEEEM!

[SheffSteel]

Statue wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

I've already used game lore to rationalise why magic affects potions but not heal spells. The same rationale explains why target magic does not increase the damage taken from attack spells, or the effect received from any other spell for that matter. It is a question of who produces the magical effect.

I disagree that your posts *used* game lore to rationalize why. You *created* game lore to rationalize how; specifically, you added the notion that herbalists imbue healing items with latent magical effects that await use and then interact with the user's magical skill.

No I didn't. I specifically and carefully refrained from making any assumptions about what herbalists do. after all, herbalists do not necessarily have any magical ability. All I said was that potions have a magical effect, which is self evident. The same effect can be produced on a smaller scale by eating elfroot. Your bringing herbalism and latent magic into the mix is pure red herring.
What I did was provide a rational in-universe theory that consistently explains the effect of characters' Magic attributes on the magnitude of potions, healing spells, and non-healing spells. So far I haven't seen a competing theory that attempts to explain these observations in a consistent fashion.

[F-C]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

Potions work as intended for ALL classes - the fact that mages have high magic attributtes and that this increases the benefits for potions is a bonus above and beyond normal potion use - the fact that most people playing a warrior or rogue will not benefit as much from this bonus since their magic stat is probably lower does not mean the potion is gimped - it still performs as described.

Way to use ridiculous belittlement to get your point across.

Lets review the stupid in your post:

1)Potions work as intended for ALL classes*   - you consider that the class that gets least damaged and stays the furthest behind and heals for triple the amount the class that tanks and eats all the damage is "working as intended."

2)people playing a warrior or rogue will not benefit as much from this bonus since their magic stat is probably lower -*   you say a warrior/rogue's stats is PROBABLY, JUST, PROBABLY lower than that of a mage, do you? Could it be that you assume that warriors and rogues PROBABLY have less magic at 20-th level than 20 level mages with 80 magic.

3)it still performs as described.*    - so you automatically assume that since something is working the way it is described, then it is, by definition, the right way and by no means can be faulty? That since it works in this way, it is set in stone that this is how it is right?

i think people like this are also way over reacting.

in comparison while a heal potion might heal my warrior for less than my mage, on average my warrior also gets hit less often and takes less damage.

those cloth robes and 0 points in dex arnt really doing much for my mage, so yeah heal potions heal him for a lot, he really needs it if he gets under fire. while my warrior doesnt get healed for as much from the same potion, hes very likely to survive longer with a smaller heal due to having decent dex and armor reducing the damage he takes, he doesnt need huge heals to survive.

considering that, under most circumstances the potions are providing near the same benefit to survivability.

Modifié par F-C, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[Meneldhil]

deathwing200 wrote...



In party play, AW is mediocre and pure nuking/healing mage is always better if you want to quickly blast through the fights.

The reason AW is bad in parties is because it is a meatshield without threat. That's why it will never hold a candle to a true tank.

Agreed, but AW are still the most broken class at the moment. The fact that they made it live that way only proves further that the gameplay wasn't really well thought out or tested. Which I don't really care about, as I still love the game even though a lot of mecanics are retard and wouldn't even appear on the most silly chinese MMORPGs.

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

Err, because I want to contribute to DA:O being a better game, rather than keep quiet about things that I find to be a problem and join the great, big handjob party on the forums?

OH MAH GAHD! SOMEONE SPEEKIN DER MIND! WE MUST CRUSH HEEEM!

And I want to keep the devs working towards making more content for the game rather than endlessly changing the manner in which the game works to satisfy the whims of every gamer in the universe who wants to see it work differently.

It's not about crushing anything or anyone it's about voicing your own opinions about the topics being posted and if there is an overwhleming attitude being displayed on these forums it's certainly not from those of us who are quite happy with the way the game works now it's from WOW style screamers - the fix this fix that this game is broken and if we just yell loud enough we will get a patch to change it  folks.

I am not a builder but I suspect the main reason a toolset was included with this game was so that all the folks who wanted to mold it to thier own vision would have the tools to do so and would not have to insist that the devs changed the game for everyone to suit their needs.