211 réponses à ce sujet

[Leather_Rebel90]

We are all aware Mages are overpowered in EVERY BioWare game. Next thread plz.

[rumination888]

The logic in this thread reminds me of the logic some people use with the word "organic". To many people, if something is natural then it is organic. But thats false. Organic isn't synonymous with natural. Organic simply means something has carbon properties. Sand, for example, is inorganic despite being natural.

In this thread, people are using "magic" as an antonym for "natural". Thats false. In Dragon Age, Lyrium is a naturally occuring substance, but its still considered magical because its properties are deemed magical. Likewise, the ingredients you use for health paultices can be deemed magical. Theres no such thing as elfroot in the real world, after all.

[Heals.like.Jesus]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

You seem to thrive on nitpicking at other people's posts and expend a good deal of effort to make them look pointless, pick words apart, while you contribute nothing to the topic.

Borderline trolling?

wanderonwrote....

Umm double negative there - weren't not discussing means in fact we were discussing - which is actually true but I'm pretty sure thats not what you meant to say.

Way to prove me right.

You strike me as the type who, on debates, takes up the tactic to attack the opposing debater, rather than actually speaking on the given topic.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:46 .

[addiction21]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

You seem to thrive on nitpicking at other people's posts and expend a good deal of effort to make them look pointless, pick words apart, while you contribute nothing to the topic.

Borderline trolling?

wanderonwrote....

Umm double negative there - weren't not discussing means in fact we were discussing - which is actually true but I'm pretty sure thats not what you meant to say.

Way to prove me right.

You strike me as the type who, on debates, takes up the tactic to attack the opposing debater, rather than actually speaking on the given topic.

So it is okay when you do it but not him? Gotcha.

[PhoenixBlacke]

Honestly, with non-mages, healing should be modified by constitution or willpower. Considering attributes on here are already kinda scarce, using what you need for your main stats, and having to put magic on a warrior..that's well. You know. It's dumb.

[wanderon]

Bibdy wrote...

Well in that case, would you like to answer the question I've already posed twice, which is "Give me a reason why health potions shouldn't scale for Warriors and Rogues" that does NOT include "Because its intended"?

The answer is right in front of you.

THEY DO!

They do so in direct proportion to how high the warrior or rogues magic attributte is just like they do for mages. That is in fact the whole point of why I don't think it's hilarious that the 300 hp warrior heals 50 with a potion and the 150 hp mage heals 112. It makes perfect sense to me based on the mechanics in the game and I see nothing wrong with the mechanic working that way.

The number of hps they have is irrelevant - the reason the mage heals more is becuase he has more points in magic (go figure).

Some people just have a hard time accepting that there is a bonus of some sort easily available to some classes that they can't get as another class without giving something up for it.

This sort of thing usually comes from the min/max number crunchers becuase if there's a .000456 % advantage to be had then their build will be a failure if they can't figure out how to get it. It's not enough for them that the build is totally viable without that advantage - if the advantage is there then they have to have it and if they can't then the game is obviously broken and needs to be fixed ASAP. 

I'm seeing the same thing here but maybe thats just my jaded view of things from seeing it for the past few years on the NWN2 forums.

[wanderon]

PhoenixBlacke wrote...

Honestly, with non-mages, healing should be modified by constitution or willpower. Considering attributes on here are already kinda scarce, using what you need for your main stats, and having to put magic on a warrior..that's well. You know. It's dumb.

You don't HAVE TO - but you can if you want to - your choice...choices are good -

choices are certainly better than lets just give everything to everyone no matter how they decide to build their character

[wanderon]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

You seem to thrive on nitpicking at other people's posts and expend a good deal of effort to make them look pointless, pick words apart, while you contribute nothing to the topic.

Borderline trolling?

wanderonwrote....

Umm double negative there - weren't not discussing means in fact we were discussing - which is actually true but I'm pretty sure thats not what you meant to say.

Way to prove me right.

You strike me as the type who, on debates, takes up the tactic to attack the opposing debater, rather than actually speaking on the given topic.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing here? And isn't it what you have done with every post you made that quoted something from me in th last two pages?

Haven't I repeatedly asked you to provide me with some updated summaries of what you consider "weighty evidence" on the topic only to be told to go read the last 6 pages?

Put up or shut up sounds like a fair request to me.

[Statue]

wanderon wrote...
Some people just have a hard time accepting that there is a bonus of some sort easily available to some classes that they can't get as another class without giving something up for it.

This sort of thing usually comes from the min/max number crunchers becuase if there's a .000456 % advantage to be had then their build will be a failure if they can't figure out how to get it. It's not enough for them that the build is totally viable without that advantage - if the advantage is there then they have to have it and if they can't then the game is obviously broken and needs to be fixed ASAP. 

I'm seeing the same thing here but maybe thats just my jaded view of things from seeing it for the past few years on the NWN2 forums.

It's not, I think, a case of wanting every class to be the same, or wanting the perks of one class in every class.
I don't want my mage to have the melee skills of my tank any more than I want my tank hanging back shooting fireballs. For decent and varied gameplay, it's better that distinct classes have their own strengths and weaknesses and have to be used accordingly (otherwise there's no need for different classes, and we lose the more rounded experience of using diverse skillsets in a complimentary way, which is always a good feature of party-based RPGs done well). 


But those strengths and weaknesses are best implemented in a sound way that doesn't create redundancy in classes or functioning, and in a way that contributes best to gameplay. Questioning an unusually functioning additional perk for a class already dripping perks doesn't equate to a wish for an uberclass or a wish for things being less challenging. There's already an uberclass after all. It's more like a consideration of what might work better for gameplay, which might include there not being an uberclass. Not every discussion of alternative gameplay mechanics is motivated by a desire to have one's cake and eat it, and to treat them as such is dismissive.


I'd be first in line to say I think DAO is a little on the easy side. If healing items worked more efficiently for other classes than mages, yes that would, on it's own and without any other adjustments, make it easier. But if, for example, I used a mod that made healing items function more effectively for warriors and rogues, I'd use a mod to address the increase in easiness that it brought. I'm not after an easy ride, and the often-presented assumption that people discussing functional balance and alternatives to gameplay design are is somewhat grating - but maybe that's because I'm jaded from seeing that assumption on the NWN2 forums? .

If anything, so far as DAO is concerned, I'm up for more challenge. That doesn't restrict me from considering alternatives that might, on their own and with no other adjustments, make things easier - because alternatives might include nerfing something rather than ubering it, and alternatives might include accompanying adjustments that redress the impact on challenge.

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[th3warr1or]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions
are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the
potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

Oh oh oh.... the ignorance...

Poultices are NOT potions, and they're not Magical.

[Statue]

th3warr1or wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions
are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the
potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

Oh oh oh.... the ignorance...

Poultices are NOT potions, and they're not Magical.

Expect a counter-argument along the lines of "but they heal instantly unlike real life healing so therefore they *must* be magical". Get ready to respond to that by explaining that in gameplay, shortcuts like insta-heal items are commonplace and an accepted convention to circumvent having players watch avatars slowly heal across a few real-time weeks, and that even a concession agreeing to their magicalness doesn't demand that their use then be moderated by the user's magic stat.

Additionally, if you dig satire, point out that when you drop a weapon or piece of armour on your ragdoll it equips instantly without any delay or animation showing the character retrieving it from their (enormous and invisible) bulky backpack - therefore by the "it works instantly and is therefore magical" definition, all equippable gear is magical (and non-equippable items too, since they somehow shrink to fit in your pockets). Maybe as well as being magical, it could be the type of magic that is enhanced by the character's magic stat. That way every item in the game would be more powerful in the hands of a mage and the uberclass would be a super-double-uber-ftw class.

Yes, I'm being facetious for effect.

But in seriousness, whether they're considered magical or not doesn't have to restrict how they work in terms of scaling, so I find much of the lore-ification discussion in the thread to be a bit of a sideliner to consideration of their gameplay mechanics.

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:33 .

[th3warr1or]

Statue wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions
are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the
potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

Oh oh oh.... the ignorance...

Poultices are NOT potions, and they're not Magical.

Expect a counter-argument along the lines of "but they heal instantly unlike real life healing so therefore they *must* be magical". Get ready to respond to that by explaining that in gameplay, shortcuts like insta-heal items are commonplace and an accepted convention to circumvent having players watch avatars slowly heal across a few real-time weeks, and that even a concession agreeing to their magicalness doesn't demand that their use then be moderated by the user's magic stat.

Additionally, if you dig satire, point out that when you drop a weapon or piece of armour on your ragdoll it equips instantly without any delay or animation showing the character retrieving it from their (enormous and invisible) bulky backpack - therefore by the "it works instantly and is therefore magical" definition, all equippable gear is magical (and non-equippable items too, since they somehow shrink to fit in your pockets). Maybe as well as being magical, it could be the type of magic that is enhanced by the character's magic stat. That way every item in the game would be more powerful in the hands of a mage and the uberclass would be a super-double-uber-ftw class.

Yes, I'm being facetious for effect.

But in seriousness, whether they're considered magical or not doesn't have to restrict how they work in terms of scaling, so I find much of the lore-ification discussion in the thread to be a bit of a sideliner to consideration of their gameplay mechanics.

That aside, it's stupid that Poultices potency(everyone loves alliterations) is dependant on MAGIC... It should be on the survival skill or something.

[th3warr1or]

Statue wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions
are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the
potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

Oh oh oh.... the ignorance...

Poultices are NOT potions, and they're not Magical.

Expect a counter-argument along the lines of "but they heal instantly unlike real life healing so therefore they *must* be magical". Get ready to respond to that by explaining that in gameplay, shortcuts like insta-heal items are commonplace and an accepted convention to circumvent having players watch avatars slowly heal across a few real-time weeks, and that even a concession agreeing to their magicalness doesn't demand that their use then be moderated by the user's magic stat.

Additionally, if you dig satire, point out that when you drop a weapon or piece of armour on your ragdoll it equips instantly without any delay or animation showing the character retrieving it from their (enormous and invisible) bulky backpack - therefore by the "it works instantly and is therefore magical" definition, all equippable gear is magical (and non-equippable items too, since they somehow shrink to fit in your pockets). Maybe as well as being magical, it could be the type of magic that is enhanced by the character's magic stat. That way every item in the game would be more powerful in the hands of a mage and the uberclass would be a super-double-uber-ftw class.

Yes, I'm being facetious for effect.

But in seriousness, whether they're considered magical or not doesn't have to restrict how they work in terms of scaling, so I find much of the lore-ification discussion in the thread to be a bit of a sideliner to consideration of their gameplay mechanics.

That aside, it's stupid that Poultices potency(everyone loves alliterations) is dependant on MAGIC... It should be on the survival skill or something.

[Mordaedil]

I'd actually like it better if potions healed on percentage. A health kit applied to a wound should always heal the patched wound, it doesn't really matter how fierce it is.

[Statue]

Survival skill could use more utility that's for sure. It's not particularly attractive as a skill choice currently.

[SheffSteel]

I think I missed the bit where it was established that warriors are too weak to survive combat without their health potions being beefed up.

It's been my experience that, if a warrior or rogue is able to drink any potion before dying, they tend to make it through the fight okay. Maybe it's something to do with my playstyle, but I just don't find myself in fights where I need to drink more than a couple of potions to stay alive. The worst cases seem to be dealing with Revenants.

Maybe if the arguments in favour of a modification were based less on "my tough guy has to drink big potions but that weedy guy only has to drink little ones", and more on "I want my mages to be easier to kill dammit", perhaps it would gain more support?

[ushae]

Hmm I think it may make more sense if the potions strength is determined by the magic skill of the individual that created the potion in the first place. It makes less sense that an individual with better magic ability/stat would benefit more from a potion, which is a constructed item. On the other hand it makes sense, like a sword that does more damage based on strength, not just a fixed amount.



Meh, beats me

[WillieStyle]

SheffSteel wrote...

I think I missed the bit where it was established that warriors are too weak to survive combat without their health potions being beefed up.
It's been my experience that, if a warrior or rogue is able to drink any potion before dying, they tend to make it through the fight okay. Maybe it's something to do with my playstyle, but I just don't find myself in fights where I need to drink more than a couple of potions to stay alive. The worst cases seem to be dealing with Revenants.
Maybe if the arguments in favour of a modification were based less on "my tough guy has to drink big potions but that weedy guy only has to drink little ones", and more on "I want my mages to be easier to kill dammit", perhaps it would gain more support?

This issue has nothing to do with how easy the game is.  If you want the game to be harder, (which I do, at least on nightmare) then ask for potions to be nerfed for all classes (at least on nightmare).

But regardless of how hard or easy a game is, having the "tough" class without healing spells benefit less from healing potions than the "fragile" class with healing spells is poor game design.
It clearly wasn't meant as a means to make the game harder.  Rather, it was a poorly thought out attempt to give warriors and rogues a reason to up the magic attribute. 

P.S.
I think it would be a good idea if Bioware hired just 1 play tester who was a min/maxer. Having played the game for a while now, I think they didn't notice a lot of the imbalances because they never had a playtester who thought to dump all stat points into magic as a mage. 
If you make a mage the way the game levels Wynne for instance dumping tons of stat points uselessly into str and dex for instance, then:
-cone of cold doesn't have a longer duration than its cooldown
-mana clash doesn't instakill bosses
-lesser heal poultices don't heal you nearly to full
etc.
A min/max playtester would also have noticed that momentum being a ~43% dps boost is a little "problematic".

[Statue]

ushae wrote...

Hmm I think it may make more sense if the potions strength is determined by the magic skill of the individual that created the potion in the first place. It makes less sense that an individual with better magic ability/stat would benefit more from a potion, which is a constructed item. On the other hand it makes sense, like a sword that does more damage based on strength, not just a fixed amount.

Meh, beats me

Aye it could be reasoned to function in various ways - which is why I find it odd that the way it has been decided to function happens to inevitably favour an already favoured class. It could have been alternatively designed to favour the less favoured classes, or to not grant any additional favour to any of them. That's part of what I'm questioning, the gameplay need served by having healing items function in a way that grants another perk to magic users. It surely couldn't have been a case of the designers thinking their mage class was underpowered and in dire need of upscaling.

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:07 .

[SheffSteel]

I don't think the designers can win on this one.

They tried to give players a reason to buy MAG for warriors and rogues, to stop it being an utterly useless attribute, and what's the response? "Mages only have to buy Magic. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."

What would the response be if CON boosted healing potions? "OMG that is yet another stat I have to buy for my warrior. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."

[WillieStyle]

SheffSteel wrote...

I don't think the designers can win on this one.
They tried to give players a reason to buy MAG for warriors and rogues, to stop it being an utterly useless attribute, and what's the response? "Mages only have to buy Magic. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."
What would the response be if CON boosted healing potions? "OMG that is yet another stat I have to buy for my warrior. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."

They tried but failed.
The oppurtunity cost of stacking mag as  a warrior/rogue FAR outweighs the benefits.
Better to just keep mag as a dump stat.
You don't see mage players complaining that they don't benefit from strength do you?

[JaegerBane]

SheffSteel wrote...

I don't think the designers can win on this one.
They tried to give players a reason to buy MAG for warriors and rogues, to stop it being an utterly useless attribute, and what's the response? "Mages only have to buy Magic. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."
What would the response be if CON boosted healing potions? "OMG that is yet another stat I have to buy for my warrior. Mages are OP compared with warriors and rouges."

To be honest, I've heard so many absurd arguments as to why warriors are underpowered that I'm automatically suspicious of anything along these lines.

Ultimately, you're right. Some people on here have decided that their class of choice is underpowered and *anything* that isn't crazyuber about them becomes a placard that they can wave. I'm half-expecting an argument that warriors are underpowered because they don't start with Herbalism next.

[Statue]

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I've heard so many absurd arguments as to why warriors are underpowered that I'm automatically suspicious of anything along these lines.

Ultimately, you're right. Some people on here have decided that their class of choice is underpowered and *anything* that isn't crazyuber about them becomes a placard that they can wave. I'm half-expecting an argument that warriors are underpowered because they don't start with Herbalism next.

Hmm. Would folk quit that assumption about motives behind the discussion if they considered that maybe it's not coming from disgruntled and class-jealous warrior fanciers? I myself am playing a mage so what I'm discussing wouldn't be gaining my class of choice any power - quite the opposite.

Like I said earlier (about 12 posts up), not every discussion of gameplay mechanics involving classes is motivated by people wanting *their* class of choice to be tougher or the game easier, and to dismiss different opinions as such is both assumptious and somewhat a cheap line to take (it's like entering a discussion and waving a 'get-out-of-discussing-the-issue-free' card). It's perfectly possible for people to discuss classes impartially and without trying to one-up their class. My mage would have to begrudgingly agree since I appear to be arguing against his crazyuberness with no regard for his feelings.

/hands out cures for excessive forum cynicism

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:47 .

[Bibdy]

Hang on, people actually play favourites with classes? I like them all. Every game of mine so far has included all 3 and then an extra one thrown in the mix (depending on which NPCs I want to tag along this time).

I just don't like the fact that the largest, most ridiculously expensive health potion heals my Warrior for less than half his health, while a cheapo-health potion heals a Mage for almost all of his. It really encourages going out of your way to minimise the amount of damage your warrior takes, which, in turn, encourages the use of mass amounts of CC on your Mage.

Why rush into combat and start blowing Potent Health Poultices at 2g a pop, when you can just CC the living crap out of everything and take no damage? Just a little bit of scaling with a main stat isn't going to kill the game...if money weren't the issue, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it, but god damn. The amount of damage your Warrior takes if you use NO CC at all can be insane. Using Taunt is like pressing the suicide button sometimes.

I still find the 'Magic must be useful to Warriors' argument not compelling in the slightest. They didn't make any attempt to make stats beyond Will and Magic useful to a Mage (unless missile defense on Dexterity counts...), so why can't health poultices scale with something else?

Modifié par Bibdy, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:33 .

[Statue]

Regarding an attempt to make magic a stat worth increasing for non-mage classes, I wonder what the benefit is of making non-class stats beneficial to take? Magic for warriors, str for mages (hypothetically speaking of course), what might justify effort to encourage players to invest points in that way?

In generous mode, I can imagine one of the better justifications for trying to do so might be in order to broaden the playstyle that accompanies classes traditionally and encourage unorthodox builds.

In a more cynical stance I can imagine another being that it could serve to protect players from nerfing themselves with poorer choices.

In a wreckless moment of utter darkness, I might imagine that that wasn't the intention behind the magic stat's involvement in healing items at all, and that either the healing item scaling decision wasn't fully considered in its implications to different classes (oops), was made to deliberately make mages more sexy (which would be an eye-popper for me since they're a little too sexy for their robes already), or was made in a context where it wasn't considered important to have class balance (uhoh).

Either way, there is reward for and satisfaction from learning the nuances of the different classes in most multi-class RPGs, and basic differentiation between classes and their range of strengths and weaknesses is a sound way to justify having multiple classes in the first place and to enable good class co-ordinated tactics, so I'm not sure an effort to make sure any mix of stats work equally well regardless of class would be a positive thing.

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:13 .