211 réponses à ce sujet

[Brunopolis]

Can't people just agree that Bioware just threw out numbers on to the classes with no testing whatsoever? Seriously, Dragon Age reminds me of Diablo II style balance.



Just get it over with and move the health bonus per potion to constitution and don't allow rogues/warriors to even put points into magic. It's just there for warriors/rogues to trip up newbies that don't know any better.

[JaegerBane]

Statue wrote...

Hmm. Would folk quit that assumption about motives behind the discussion if they considered that maybe it's not coming from disgruntled and class-jealous warrior fanciers? I myself am playing a mage so what I'm discussing wouldn't be gaining my class of choice any power - quite the opposite.

Like I said earlier (about 12 posts up), not every discussion of gameplay mechanics involving classes is motivated by people wanting *their* class of choice to be tougher or the game easier, and to dismiss different opinions as such is both assumptious and somewhat a cheap line to take (it's like entering a discussion and waving a 'get-out-of-discussing-the-issue-free' card). It's perfectly possible for people to discuss classes impartially and without trying to one-up their class. My mage would have to begrudgingly agree since I appear to be arguing against his crazyuberness with no regard for his feelings.

/hands out cures for excessive forum cynicism

I'd rather you didn't simply assume that I'm dismissing an entire argument on the basis that it's anti-mage. That's exactly the kind of methodology you mention in your post. Granted, it is getting to the point where the anti-mage stuff is going well outside validity, but as I pointed out, all that stuff is the reason why I'm slightly suspicious
of it.

But as I pointed out, that is irrespective of the fact that I'm agreeing with the poster due to the merits of the argument.

Ultimately the argument of the OP seems to be lodged squarely on the fact that the Warrior gains less benefit from it. Like it or not, it is absolutely clear that the stats in DA:O are *intended* to be of some use to all characters. True, a warrior increasing his magic to use potions is obviously sacrificing a lot to make efficient use of them, but no more so than an Arcane Warrior pushing strength in order to do a decent amount of damage without sacrificing casting.

In both cases we have a class having to delve into a relatively odd stat for them to take in order to improve themselves in a useful area. The reason I agree with the other guy is because he's making sense - the fact that it's getting depressingly familiar to see *any* advantage the mages have - even situational ones, such as this - be waved around as an OP moan even when the issue itself isn't that important is just a sour note on the side.

I mean, seriously, why is it such a terrible thing that mages happen to use potions better, but have less HP to take advantage of it? it's the flipside of the coin to the Warrior's predicament, having plenty of health but finding it harder to replace. 

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[WillieStyle]

True, a warrior increasing his magic to use potions is obviously sacrificing a lot to make efficient use of them, but no more so than an Arcane Warrior pushing strength in order to do a decent amount of damage without sacrificing casting.

Hmm. Perhaps Arcane Warriors should get an ability that allows them to use their magic score to for melee damage instead of strength. That way they wouldn't have to sacrifice a core ability for a peripheral one. Perhaps they could also get a spell - let's call it schiasma - that allows them to convert their spellpower (magic) into attack so they would have even less reason to use such peripheral abilities as Dex and Str. If only the developers had thought of that Arcane Warriors wouldn't be in the sorry, underpowered state they find themselves today.

[JaegerBane]

WillieStyle wrote...

True, a warrior increasing his magic to use potions is obviously sacrificing a lot to make efficient use of them, but no more so than an Arcane Warrior pushing strength in order to do a decent amount of damage without sacrificing casting.

Hmm. Perhaps Arcane Warriors should get an ability that allows them to use their magic score to for melee damage instead of strength. That way they wouldn't have to sacrifice a core ability for a peripheral one. Perhaps they could also get a spell - let's call it schiasma - that allows them to convert their spellpower (magic) into attack so they would have even less reason to use such peripheral abilities as Dex and Str. If only the developers had thought of that Arcane Warriors wouldn't be in the sorry, underpowered state they find themselves today.

If you're using Combat Magic/Miasma then you cripple you're spellcasting ability, which is the entire point of bringing in a mage. I really do wish people would stop acting as if switching on every defence they've got is somehow without any drawback at all and allows you to simply pwn everything no problem.

Kindly at least try to understand the post before blasting off nonsense.

 

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:09 .

[WillieStyle]

JaegerBane wrote...
If you're using Combat Magic/Miasma then you cripple you're spellcasting ability.

Blood magic.

[JaegerBane]

WillieStyle wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If you're using Combat Magic/Miasma then you cripple you're spellcasting ability.

Blood magic.

So effectively, a mage, armed and equipped with the best equipment, and having chosen the best specialisations, and having been built in such a way to take perfect advantage of them.... is very powerful?

No s**t, Sherlock. This doesn't mean the class is OP. This means that you've figured out how to powergame.

What happens if I'm not a blood mage? What then?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:20 .

[WillieStyle]

JaegerBane wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
If you're using Combat Magic/Miasma then you cripple you're spellcasting ability.

Blood magic.

So effectively, a mage, armed and equipped with the best equipment, and having chosen the best specialisations, and having been built in such a way to take perfect advantage of them.... is very powerful?

No ****, Sherlock. This doesn't mean the class is OP. This means that you've figured out how to powergame.

Make a warrior that can heal as well as an Arcane Warrior can tank.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.

[JaegerBane]

WillieStyle wrote...
Make a warrior that can heal as well as an Arcane Warrior can tank.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.

That's a bit like saying make a Mage that can stealth as well as a Rogue that can fight. Should we start moaning about how Rogues are overpowered, too?

[WillieStyle]

Make the argument if you wish. Perhaps you'll even get Bioware to agree with you.

I for one think the ability to spam grenades in stealth should be nerfed as should the ability to stack multiple AoE traps in one area.



Still doesn't change the fact that mages are ridiculously overpowered.

[wanderon]

WillieStyle wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

I think I missed the bit where it was established that warriors are too weak to survive combat without their health potions being beefed up.
It's been my experience that, if a warrior or rogue is able to drink any potion before dying, they tend to make it through the fight okay. Maybe it's something to do with my playstyle, but I just don't find myself in fights where I need to drink more than a couple of potions to stay alive. The worst cases seem to be dealing with Revenants.
Maybe if the arguments in favour of a modification were based less on "my tough guy has to drink big potions but that weedy guy only has to drink little ones", and more on "I want my mages to be easier to kill dammit", perhaps it would gain more support?

This issue has nothing to do with how easy the game is.  If you want the game to be harder, (which I do, at least on nightmare) then ask for potions to be nerfed for all classes (at least on nightmare).

But regardless of how hard or easy a game is, having the "tough" class without healing spells benefit less from healing potions than the "fragile" class with healing spells is poor game design.
It clearly wasn't meant as a means to make the game harder.  Rather, it was a poorly thought out attempt to give warriors and rogues a reason to up the magic attribute. 

P.S.
I think it would be a good idea if Bioware hired just 1 play tester who was a min/maxer. Having played the game for a while now, I think they didn't notice a lot of the imbalances because they never had a playtester who thought to dump all stat points into magic as a mage. 
If you make a mage the way the game levels Wynne for instance dumping tons of stat points uselessly into str and dex for instance, then:
-cone of cold doesn't have a longer duration than its cooldown
-mana clash doesn't instakill bosses
-lesser heal poultices don't heal you nearly to full
etc.
A min/max playtester would also have noticed that momentum being a ~43% dps boost is a little "problematic".

Or on the other hand making potions more effective for the class with the least amount of health available to sustain themselves while being damaged might be seen as good game design since warriors already have massive amounts of health to begin with not to mention large clunky armor and shields to protect that health AND a wimpy mage that can stay alive with cheap potions while pumping heal spells into the brutish warrior or sneaky rogue. I just don't see any downside to that scenario myself other than the whole have my cake and eat it too thing.

As for hiring a min/maxer to make sure the game won't be overpowered by one - having hung around Bioware forums since back in the days of BG1 I've noticed a distinct effort on their parts to tweak their games intentionally to make min/maxing and especially the use of dump stats less and less effective or at least to come at a cost - it appears that one of thier underlying principles revolves around the concept that stats should be relatively balanced for their games and those who choose to play unbalanced choices may find themselves missing out out things when they drop a stat to it's lowest common denominator. (Like that fighter with a 3 intelligence facing off against a horde of mind flayers)

I have no way of knowing for certain but I suspect that as others have said this is at least part of whats behind this particular bit oif game design - an effort to encourage balanced attributtes - or at least to reward those who choose to use them. (and I have no problem with that)

[Suron]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

um..no they're not..they're alchemical..anyone..even a dwarf..can make them with herbalism.

I'm all for it being tied to a stat for effectiveness sure..but being tied to magic for ALL characters not so much...As the characters that NEED higher effect are gimped from getting it.

and your reasoning is idiotic....potions -are not- magical

[wanderon]

Suron wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

um..no they're not..they're alchemical..anyone..even a dwarf..can make them with herbalism.

I'm all for it being tied to a stat for effectiveness sure..but being tied to magic for ALL characters not so much...As the characters that NEED higher effect are gimped from getting it.

and your reasoning is idiotic....potions -are not- magical

Thier effects are certainly magical - perhaps the magic is in the herbs themselves - the effect certainly does not come from ingesting and processing the potion through the digestive system as the result would not be instantaneous if that were the case.

[Statue]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/455541/7#467229

One page earlier

I'd be interested to hear of a game where any healing item acted according to real-life healing schedules. So I can cross it off my list of what might be fun to play

Modifié par Statue, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[WillieStyle]

wanderon wrote...

Suron wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

um..no they're not..they're alchemical..anyone..even a dwarf..can make them with herbalism.

I'm all for it being tied to a stat for effectiveness sure..but being tied to magic for ALL characters not so much...As the characters that NEED higher effect are gimped from getting it.

and your reasoning is idiotic....potions -are not- magical

Thier effects are certainly magical - perhaps the magic is in the herbs themselves - the effect certainly does not come from ingesting and processing the potion through the digestive system as the result would not be instantaneous if that were the case.

Excellent argument!
Other things in DA:O that are obviously magical:
-Picking Locks
-Equiping armor
-Making Traps

Furthermore, since my warrior with a magic score of 10 in nonmagical splintmail can take a sword to the face and keep on trucking, he must be magical too.  Hmm but then whycome he can't heal good from potions?  My brain hurts.

[WillieStyle]

Statue wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/455541/7#467229

One page earlier

Well played good sir. Sadly, some people are beyond parody.

[Shootypooty]

I don't even care that potions are the way they are. My healer's spell being as effective at lv 20 as they were at lv 6, THAT is stupid.

[wanderon]

WillieStyle wrote...

wanderon wrote...

Suron wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

How is it ridiculous? Potions are magical thusly how powerful the potion is, regardless of the potion, is determined by the Magic stat.

um..no they're not..they're alchemical..anyone..even a dwarf..can make them with herbalism.

I'm all for it being tied to a stat for effectiveness sure..but being tied to magic for ALL characters not so much...As the characters that NEED higher effect are gimped from getting it.

and your reasoning is idiotic....potions -are not- magical

Thier effects are certainly magical - perhaps the magic is in the herbs themselves - the effect certainly does not come from ingesting and processing the potion through the digestive system as the result would not be instantaneous if that were the case.

Excellent argument!
Other things in DA:O that are obviously magical:
-Picking Locks
-Equiping armor
-Making Traps

Furthermore, since my warrior with a magic score of 10 in nonmagical splintmail can take a sword to the face and keep on trucking, he must be magical too.  Hmm but then whycome he can't heal good from potions?  My brain hurts.

You forgot to mention that same warrior can campaign for over a year in DA:O without ever eating or going to the bathroom too -

[Heals.like.Jesus]

WillieStyle wrote...

Statue wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/455541/7#467229

One page earlier

Well played good sir. Sadly, some people are beyond parody.

Well played indeed, I was going to quote this if you hadnt already. True, using "it heals instantly, therefore its magic" argument is a poor man's loophole. Might as well say that the fact your character carries 100 sets of massive armor in an invisible backpack, and is able to put them on in less than a second, means its magic.

In reality healing should take weeks to restore a severely damaged body , and it is unviersely agreed that for the sake of gaming, effects should be instantaneous, but desperate people with no valid arguments to support their point will resort to anything.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 18 décembre 2009 - 09:19 .

[skotie]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Statue wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/455541/7#467229

One page earlier

Well played good sir. Sadly, some people are beyond parody.

Well played indeed, I was going to quote this if you hadnt already. True, using "it heals instantly, therefore its magic" argument is a poor man's loophole. Might as well say that the fact your character carries 100 sets of massive armor in an invisible backpack, and is able to put them on in less than a second, means its magic.

In reality healing should take weeks to restore a severely damaged body , and it is unviersely agreed that for the sake of gaming, effects should be instantaneous, but desperate people with no valid arguments to support their point will resort to anything.

Ah yes poor mans loophole indeed, why give any sort of logic to game mechanics, why should any player need a certain strength or dexterity requirement to weild a weapon. I guess Im the desperate one here though, saying elfroot is magical because when ground up and made into a poultice it mimicks a spell in the game, its clearly not a spell in a bottle however its just a potion!

Those runes the dwarfs make as well clearly contain no magic what so ever, the constant flaming sword effect only happens because your warrior/rogue is just that awesome!

[wanderon]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Statue wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/455541/7#467229

One page earlier

Well played good sir. Sadly, some people are beyond parody.

Well played indeed, I was going to quote this if you hadnt already. True, using "it heals instantly, therefore its magic" argument is a poor man's loophole. Might as well say that the fact your character carries 100 sets of massive armor in an invisible backpack, and is able to put them on in less than a second, means its magic.

In reality healing should take weeks to restore a severely damaged body , and it is unviersely agreed that for the sake of gaming, effects should be instantaneous, but desperate people with no valid arguments to support their point will resort to anything.

Speaking of valid arguments maybe you would like to link us to any posts of yours in the last three pages that have one?

[Heals.like.Jesus]

I wont parrot myself for you - My posts range form the first to the current page, and they all have a point, with an argument regarding said point, within them. Skim along the pages yourself to find them.

You seem to consent on the fact that you do, actually, argue with "poor man's loopholes", just so you can muster some form of rebuttal.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[skotie]

Except you have no valid arguments, other than that you think healing potions should work the same way in this game as they do in other games, they don't sorry. Just because you believe they should isn't going to make them work as such ether.

[deathwing200]

Brunopolis wrote...

Can't people just agree that Bioware just threw out numbers on to the classes with no testing whatsoever? Seriously, Dragon Age reminds me of Diablo II style balance.
.

Diablo was more balanced than DA.

[Llames]

deathwing200 wrote...

Brunopolis wrote...

Can't people just agree that Bioware just threw out numbers on to the classes with no testing whatsoever? Seriously, Dragon Age reminds me of Diablo II style balance.
.

Diablo was more balanced than DA.

Haha, you dont have to say that twice! 

Altho, a online/multiplayer games need to more balanced tho, seeing your friend who just happened to roll sorcerer, hes twice as powerfull as yourself cause you happened to have rolled Druid, is a big lackluster (Example ofc).

[cheeseslayersmu]

magic