I doubt people saying that the inventory system could equally be considered magical by the same logic as considering healing items magical (due to magical-seeming functioning) are genuinely arguing that they actually believe the inventory system was set up to appear magical. They are drawing attention to the weakness in the initial logic, showing that by itself something functioning in a 'real-life unrealistic' way can not by itself be a sound basis for ascribing magical effects to it. I think reframing the point to be that what's being argued is that the inventory system is indeed magical and feigning surprise at that is a little disingenuous, especially after seeing it used as a counter precisely to the argument that "it works instantly and is therefore magical". It is a point made precisely to show that it's tenuous to argue that it must be magical solely based upon it being instantaneous, because *if* that logic were true, *then* it would follow that [insert ridiculous things as magical here]. Of course it *isn't* true, and the illustration of the ridiculous that ensues from the application of that logic consistently is precisely what shows it to be ridiculous and not true. That's the point of the point: not to convince you that the inventory system is magical but to illustrate that the "instant effect must be magic" argument is, on its own merit, flawed, since *if* it were logical truth *then* it would suggest ridiculous things like that the inventory system is magical. That really shouldn't require explaining, and I don't think it does, because as I said, I think it's a little disingenuous to see the argument as really being about trying to make a convincing claim that the inventory system is actually intented to appear to be steeped in magic rather than an illustration of a logical flaw in "it's instant therefore must be magical".
Pointing out the fallacy of "instant effect, must be magic" doesn't, of course, address some of the other points made to reason that healing items are magical, because of course that isn't the only argument for them being regarded as magical.
That's where other counterpoints to that reasoning are required to come in. Particularly in terms of functioning, it's where counterpoints to the idea that them being magical should dictate that they become moderated by the recipient's magic stat come in. Beyond that there are counterpoints to the entire lore-plus-functioning package that come in from a gameplaying perspective (since lore is created and could be alternative to as is in the same way that gameplay functioning is and could). Ultimately, whether lore can be argued to, or even clearly does, support a particular manner of gameplay functioning, it isn't an inhibitor to an alternative game mechanic. Not if a) the existing lore can be interpreted to allow for the alternative gameplay mechanic or
in the event that an alternative mechanic wouldn't mesh with existing lore, a feasible variation of that lore would allow for it. In other words, consideration of a potential improved game mechanic shouldn't be constrained by pinning the mechanic in question to lore and deeming it the only way it could have been devised, as lore is as much amenable to alternative creation or interpretation as the mechanic in question. One could cite numerous games where healing items might or might not be considered magical according to lore but do not have their use scale with a magic stat, without causing a flurry of complaints about lore inconsistency.
There is no substantial lore requirement that using a healing item should have to function by scaling to the magic skill (even if sound in-universe reasons can explain them doing so). Game mechanics aren't slaves to lore for plenty of reasons: because of the flexibility of lore interpretation, because of player acceptance of mechanics that don't necessarily stem in a blatant way from lore (the inventory system et al), and because lore itself is as much amenable to alternate creation as mechanics are. When that is considered, what we are left with is what we actually started with but has been derailed more times than British Rail: in gameplay terms, is the way healing items scale to the magic stat the best of the alternative ways that they could function mechanically?
And that's where its utility is uncertain for me, since I am aware that it grants a perk to a perk-heavy class, and can make for some unusual gameplay (a need to spam more pots for the tank than otherwise - we could imagine a scenario where potions were effective to only 1 point of healing but that was balanced by having their drop frequency increased massively - but that balancing by availability would not itself make that a desirable scenario, since it would create an unusual demand on the player to spend a lot of time drinking potions while it would likely be more fun to be doing other things; that is of course a massive exaggeration of the impact upon play that the current system has, but serves to illustrate how their mechanics can impact upon gameplay).
Which in a long-winded and round-about way leads me back to the central question asked repeatedly over 9 pages: what gameplay reasons are there for healing items scaling to the magic stat?
To answer that, a re-trawl through the thread arrives at the following suggestions:
1) To grant mages an additional perk
2) To make the magic stat more attractive to non-mages
3) To create a flipside balance (warriors have more health and harder to replace it whilst mages have less health but it's easier to replace it)
I've not included 4) because it can be reasoned to make sense according to lore (for all the reasons covered above about lore and mechanics), but imagine I did if it feels better, and then I'll move on to looking at those 3 gameplay reasons
1 makes my head hurt - I don't see a need for a healing item mechanic to exist in order to rescue an otherwise struggling class, because I don't see the mage as at all struggling.
2 raises a follow-up question of why would that be a good thing to try to do? Maybe to encourage diversity in the way players build classes and encourage unorthodox builds (this sounds like a noble intention), maybe because of (potentially misguided) discomfort over redundant stats in classes (I say misguided because the idea that some stats are more or less useful for different classes is kind of integral to the idea of classes being specialized and different in the first place, specialization and difference that lends itself well to rounded gameplay in party-based TRPGs), maybe for paternalistic protection of players who might gimp themselves from thoughtless stat allocation (not something I'm fond of as I come from the school of "screw up on thinking about choices and expect it to negatively affect you" that many RPGers have attended and derived a good degree of satisfaction from graduating), maybe some or all or none of the above.
3 I'm not sure is needed as there's already a natural flipside of the weak mage and health-laden warrior in combat roles - the warrior is at the front getting his health pounded while the mage isn't, partially because of that very difference in attributes - and the flipside would still be (albeit to a lesser degree) present with fixed-effect healing items or ones scaling to anything else, purely by virtue of there being more health points to replenish).
The other side of the question is what benefit to gameplay could be gained from having healing items not scale with magic for all classes (whether they don't scale at all or whether they scale to a different stat or skill). Some possibilities might be:
a) a minor reduction in the feeling that mages (arguably perk-heavy without) have another perk
a reduction to potion spamming
c) a removal of an unusual draw towards the magic stat in classes that otherwise don't benefit from it
d) a way of making some less attractive skills/stats more attractive
a - yes it would be a very minor reduction, since it really is in the scheme of things only a very minor perk; but a little bit of chipping away still does chip away, and a few smaller chips here and there might be preferable to strapping their arms behinds their backs.
b - getting through battles using sound full-party co-ordination and tactics is more satisfying than feeling like one got through by spamming potions (I avoid pot-spamming to force my focus more on minimizing received damage, and think it is more rewarding to have to do so)
c - the lure of the magic stat for non-mage classes might be (partially) there to protect players from self-gimping by poor stat allocation, but since the benefit to non-mages from investing in magic (more effective potions) is so much less than the benefit from investing in the other more conventional stats, it could be reasoned that rather than protecting against poor choices, it might serve to trip up the casual gamer by luring them toward what is still a poor choice of alternatives. True, the outcome might still be less gimped than it might have been, but tempting a player to slightly gimp themselves under the banner of protecting them from gimping themselves means the effort failed.
d - such a skill might be the survival skill. It is far less attractive and less effective than its competitors imo, which is a shame. I might sound guilty of the same thinking here as making the magic stat more useful to non-mages - but maybe not, since survival is a skill selection available to all classes that wouldn't make as little intrinsic sense for a non-mage to pick as points in a magic stat. It might essentially make the potion enhancement perk one that can more be picked by any class, not at the expense of gimping their stats but at the expense of one of the other skills that are currently a little too attractive in relation to it anyhow.
All of which might ultimately be unconvincing as arguments for the healing item mechanics functioning differently, but at least it is a consideration of the game mechanic - which I would have thought would be more prominent in a thread about a game mechanic. Interested to see the ideas others have about the gameplay mechanic and what advantages and disadvantages it brings.
Modifié par Statue, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:19 .
Retour en haut
