59 réponses à ce sujet

[RussianSpy27]

 David Gaider recently said that no one in Theidas is really an atheist, but at the same time, can all faith be true simoltaneously?  Can only one religion end up being true in a sense that the only real deities are say those the Elves belive in?

The Dalish believe in their creators? Do they exist or are they not real?

The Chantry believes in the literal all-powerful Diety called the Maker. Does he actually exist?

The dwarves believe in the power of ansestors...

Are there really the Elven gods? What relationship do they have to the Old Gods? Did the story of the Golden City happen?

Can we expect to get some answers to the above questions in DA3? Thanks.

[Realmzmaster]

I doubt you will find the answers you seek in the Dragon Age universe. I seriously doubt the writers are going down that path.

[DarkDragon777]

The Dwarves don't believe in God. They believe they were born from The Stone, but they don't worship it as a deity. Morrigan doesn't believe in an all-powerful deity. I doubt the Qun do either.

What Gaider said was a bit ridiculous.

[Eudaemonium]

I'm pretty certain the idea is to go for ambiguity. None of them may be true, or one of them might be, or some bizarre combination of them all in a way that has been lost to time. The issue of faith is that, to be interesting, it requires a fundamental uncertainty. You can't have faith, religiously conceived, in a deity known to exist. It becomes knowledge. You can have faith that the deity may act in your interests, but that isn't really the same type of faith, and applies to interactions with other beings.

I don't think we will ever have answers about whether the Creators or the Maker exist. However, this is, however, *not* the same thing as whether the Black City exists. The Black City can exist, and be the source of the darkspawn, etc, without the Maker being real.

EDIT:

DarkDragon777 wrote...

The Dwarves don't believe in God.
They believe they were born from The Stone, but they don't worship it as
a deity. Morrigan doesn't believe in an all-powerful deity. I doubt the
Qun do either.

What Gaider said was a bit ridiculous.

David Gaider was speaking specifically with regards to 1) humans, and 2) non-individuals. Morrigan professing unbelief is not the same as atheism in the manner of the worldview we have today, and is a product of her social upbringing. It is unlikely to impossible that a human raised within a society dominated by the Chantry would not believe in the Maker. They may not adhere to the teachings, be lax in their piety and generally not practice, but this is not the same as unbelief. In a religious society there will always be different levels of religious practice which vary between individuals and communities. Belief in the Maker is an intrinsic part of the social fabric for Thedasian humans (and most City Elves), it is not really something they are able to 'opt out' of, though they may express specific doubts about certain aspects of doctrine.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:33 .

[Wulfram]

They've probably all got some truth in them.

And some rubbish.

[Nyaore]

Wulfram wrote...

They've probably all got some truth in them.

And some rubbish.

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

Modifié par Nyaore, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:34 .

[Wulfram]

Nyaore wrote...

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

How should God work except through "coincidence"?

[Nyaore]

Wulfram wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

How should God work except through "coincidence"?

Good point.

[whykikyouwhy]

RussianSpy27 wrote...

 Can only one religion end up being true in a sense that the only real deities are say those the Elves belive in?

With regard to this question, it is possible that the main faiths in Thedas have a common root element - that deviations in pantheons, names, figureheads, lore, etc are cultural and environmental. Different groups may have interpreted events in a variety of ways, put their own shades and hues to the lore based on how their individual societies functioned. It could all be akin to Joseph Campbell's 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' and the concept of the monomyth.

As to whether or not we'll receive answers, it's doubtful that we'll get anything concrete and definitive. But I suspect (and hope) that we'll see and learn enough to spawn a whole new crop of speculation and questions.

[WotanAnubis]

Wulfram wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

How should God work except through "coincidence"?

Divine intervention?

If we assume the Chantry's version of events is true, didn't the Maker punish the Tevinter mages intruding into the Golden City by turning them into the first darkspawn and unleashing the Blight unto the innocent inhabitantsof Thedas? That's hardly working through "coincidence", I would say.

[ianvillan]

WotanAnubis wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

How should God work except through "coincidence"?

Divine intervention?

If we assume the Chantry's version of events is true, didn't the Maker punish the Tevinter mages intruding into the Golden City by turning them into the first darkspawn and unleashing the Blight unto the innocent inhabitantsof Thedas? That's hardly working through "coincidence", I would say.

Is it divine intervention or just really good propoganda by the chantry.

[Wulfram]

WotanAnubis wrote...

Divine intervention?

If we assume the Chantry's version of events is true, didn't the Maker punish the Tevinter mages intruding into the Golden City by turning them into the first darkspawn and unleashing the Blight unto the innocent inhabitantsof Thedas? That's hardly working through "coincidence", I would say.

I would predict that it will emerge that the Darkspawnisation of the Mages was a "natural" result of the magic they were using, or the way they were meddling with the Fade.

Which would not necessarily preclude it from also being the wrath of The Maker.

[Maclimes]

There's a difference between what is true, and what is believed.

Saying, "There's no atheists" is not the same thing as saying, "There is a god".

[BomimoDK]

ianvillan wrote...

WotanAnubis wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

And lots and lots of coincidental use of lyrium, if the temple of Andraste in the Frostback Mountains is anything to go by. 

How should God work except through "coincidence"?

Divine intervention?

If we assume the Chantry's version of events is true, didn't the Maker punish the Tevinter mages intruding into the Golden City by turning them into the first darkspawn and unleashing the Blight unto the innocent inhabitantsof Thedas? That's hardly working through "coincidence", I would say.

Is it divine intervention or just really good propoganda by the chantry.

That's a very nice rebuttal. Until the demons in the fade also start talking about their creator. At the same time, augmented artifacts of elven lore are also weapons in DA:O. Maybe all of it ties into something greater.

IMO, Dalish and Fade has something between them and the Chantry just made their own spin on the same. The dwarves don't **** a give about that, so. The Qun... who knows.
Morrigan is disillusioned with the notion of a maker because her mother, by her existence alone disproves that notion.

[robertthebard]

BomimoDK wrote...
 
Morrigan is disillusioned with the notion of a maker because her mother, by her existence alone disproves that notion.

How is that, exactly?  If we assume that, as the lore lays out, Flemeth is an Abomination, doesn't that support the Chantry's viewpoint?  It would also lend itself to the Elven beliefs, since they belive that spirits were the first of the Maker's children, both good and not so much.

If, as has been surmised, she is actually an Old God, then that also plays straight into the Chantry's veiwpoint, since it would prove there were Old Gods in the first place, not like most of Thedas needs convincing about that, 5 Blights and counting.

If she's really a dragon, it's hard to say, I suppose, and this theory has been presented a time or two(thousand) as well.  We'll also have to note that disillusionment does not equal disbelief.  She very obviously believes in the Old Gods, or there would be no debate about OGB.

[Dave of Canada]

It's called faith.

[Daerog]

The Avvars are correct.

Really, what Maclimes said, just because there are no atheists doesn't mean that one or all are correct in some way. David "The Maker" Gaider is saying that there isn't a faction of society that would be considered atheist. Every society has some sort of faith. I think that's what was mentioned, I don't know for sure, just read what he wrote, inferred that, may not be what he implied.

So many faiths anyway.
Dalish, Old Gods, Chantry, darkspawn cults, dragon cults, avvars, chasind, I think Rivaini have their own kind of faith, etc....

Doesn't bother me any, all my mains have been andrastians so far anyway. Next one may go with the Avvars if given the option...

Edit: Could have been a creator/maker/designer who created everything, then it exploded due to grief over how crazy the Fade was and boring it considered Thedas and all its pieces became the ghast. In DA3 there will be a ghast cult, I'm calling it now.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:44 .

[Todd23]

The Creators made the elves, The Maker made humans, and The Stone made the Dwarves. No divine being would make one creation poisonous to another. And you witness The memory of the stone on multiple occasions in the deep roads.

[PsychoBlonde]

RussianSpy27 wrote...

Can we expect to get some answers to the above questions in DA3? Thanks.

If they ever definitively "answer" these questions, you can expect two things:  a.) it'll be cheesy and stupid and it will also be the last game they make in the franchise.

It will be much, much better, instead, if they give "answers" to affiliated questions (like, "what is lyrium?" or "what created the Darkspawn?") which the various belief systems can still interpret in their own way.

That being said, it is not possible to "disprove" the existence of the Maker, the Elven Gods, or any other deity, because they have no identity or fixed attributes.  If you have deities with identity and fixed attributes (say, they live on some particular mountain somewhere and meddle in the lives of mortals), and then you go climb said mountain and find nothing, this hypothesis is disproven.  The typical tactic of the religious, however, when they assign fixed attributes and those attributes are refuted, is not to give up the belief but to either assign different attributes to their deity OR insist that the attributes were only metaphorical and thus cannot actually be disproven by anything in reality.

So, the only real option for the writers would be something horribly cheesy and dumb like you meeting The Maker.  Or, alternatively, you could encounter some being who CLAIMS to be, say, The Maker, but the claims are never substantiated.  Something like that.  However, once they do this, there's really nowhere else to go story-wise.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Dalish gods -- Worthless.  Too weak to protect their own people.  Not gods if they exist at all.

The Chantry -- The Maker.  Real, though likely only an aspect of the real power of the entity.

The Dwarves -- Worthless.  Never actually done anything, have they?  Not gods if they exist at all.

Qun -- Worthless.  A fair for slaves, cowards, and people who like to be told what to do.  No central diety at all.

Is more than one faith in Thedas true?  No.

[Realmzmaster]

The more real life type issues are brought into fantasy games the more discussions like this one you will see. In the early crpgs where you created your own party it did not matter except you had to pick a god for your cleric, or druid that is where those classes got their power. So the characters in the party could be whatever the player headcanoned, but it basically had little effect on the gameworld.

Bioware comes along and the gamer gets to create only the PC and rest of the companions are written by the writers. A line in DAO got past the head writer (David Gaider) and made it into the game for the human noble. According to him that was not the intent. He was not trying to either promote nor deny atheism.
Morrigan denies belief in any god especially the Maker except she then turns around in the dark ritual sequence and states that the baby would be born with the soul of an Old God. So I can only be lead to believe she does believe in the Old Gods. Whether or not the Old Gods are supreme beings is debatable but they are extremely powerful beings whether they be a hairy thunderer or Cosmic Muffin. So there is somewhat of a contradiction.

In Legacy Corypheus believes in the Old Gods because he calls on Dumat and receives power. So the Old Gods exist and were obviously worshiped as powerful beings but not all powerful otherwise they could not be killed. But are the Old Gods dead even if you kill the ArchDemon? Hawke can sacrifice to Dumat at the altar and is heard or can defile the altar. If the sacrifice is completed Hawke is rewarded. If the altar is defiled Hawke and party are attacked.

[Icesong]

What are you talking about Realmzmaster? Real life encroaching into fiction has nothing to do with this. This is what we do as fans of fictional settings: we dive into the minutiae and argue every point. I've already mentioned Fantasy 101; arguing about elf gods versus dwarf gods would be what the students do after class.

Modifié par Icesong, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[Daerog]

Elf gods > dwarf gods.

[FKA_Servo]

Maclimes wrote...

There's a difference between what is true, and what is believed.

Saying, "There's no atheists" is not the same thing as saying, "There is a god".

Pretty much this. I think what DG was saying in the other thread is that, similarly to the medieval period of European history, the denizens of Thedas are monolithically faithful. While there are outliers, as of course there always would be, faith is basically inextricable from society, and atheism is not a "thing." Like the Christian church of the real world example, the influence of the Chantry and the cultural acceptance of belief in the Maker is so ingrained that if you're stepping into the shoes of a given person, particularly one who's not a blank slate (a Hawke, or the TBD protagonist of the next game), it's unlikely that they would question it. In all likelihood, the game will just continue to gloss over it.

I can deal with it, but I think it's dumb. I'd like to have the ability to completely disavow the existence of the Maker, or to once again embrace a different religious tradition, than play another cultural Andrastian. It would be an interesting choice to make. Which is why having a Qunari origin would have been pretty cool.

In any event, as far as whether anything is "true" - I imagine that only Andrastism is the "true" faith, and the whole Andrastian theology will have some sort of gritty historical basis. After Legacy, I can't see any other outcome.

[RussianSpy27]

TommyServo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

There's a difference between what is true, and what is believed.

Saying, "There's no atheists" is not the same thing as saying, "There is a god".

Pretty much this. I think what DG was saying in the other thread is that, similarly to the medieval period of European history, the denizens of Thedas are monolithically faithful. While there are outliers, as of course there always would be, faith is basically inextricable from society, and atheism is not a "thing." Like the Christian church of the real world example, the influence of the Chantry and the cultural acceptance of belief in the Maker is so ingrained that if you're stepping into the shoes of a given person, particularly one who's not a blank slate (a Hawke, or the TBD protagonist of the next game), it's unlikely that they would question it. In all likelihood, the game will just continue to gloss over it.

I can deal with it, but I think it's dumb. I'd like to have the ability to completely disavow the existence of the Maker, or to once again embrace a different religious tradition, than play another cultural Andrastian. It would be an interesting choice to make. Which is why having a Qunari origin would have been pretty cool.

In any event, as far as whether anything is "true" - I imagine that only Andrastism is the "true" faith, and the whole Andrastian theology will have some sort of gritty historical basis. After Legacy, I can't see any other outcome.

Farewell, Elven gods and the Stone....it was nice meeting you.