So, let's start off with my biases. I hated the original endings, and the EC didn't help much because the actual ending wasn't changed. Nor did I expect it to be :/
Anyway to my point:
In Mass Effect 1, the characters were predominantly organic. The only real instance of synthetics vs. organics was when you fought the geth, who were being used as pawns by the Reapers. Side Note: Mass Effect Wiki says the Reapers are synthetic-organics? Okay, fine, but when I fought Sovereign, I wasn't thinking "Wow we're fighting Sovereign because its partially synthetic!"
In Mass Effect 2, once again, the conflict really wasn't present. It was organics, EDI, and Legion, versus an enslaved organic race. This enslaved race, yes, did happen to be controlled by a partially synthetic Harbinger, but that trait was unimportant. EDI and Legion were also allies, obviously, and I thought "Oh look, the Geth aren't always evil". Not that I wanted to fuse organics and synthetics, but you get my point.
Then, in Mass Effect 3: Synthetics vs. Organics is not a major factor. Okay, so it was an undertone in the Quarians vs. Geth conflict. So what? That was one obstacle you faced in the game. What about everything else?
Anyway, so by now the only conflict present in my mind is Civilization vs. Reapers. Period. Maybe a little bit of a conflict over what to do with the Reapers (Destroy/Control, as encountered with The Illusive Man). But no, I'm not really thinking about Synthetics vs. Organics.
Then, I meet the Catalyst at the end of the game. Now I have several problems with the Catalyst, many of those being with his "fire burns" logic and the fact that you're completely screwed if you don't make his choices (conventional victory anyone? But this is a different topic of course). Anyway, Starboy gives me these choices....and he relates them all to the conflict of Synthetics vs. Organics, saying that the Reapers were created to solve the conflict. Alleging that Starboy cannot solve this conflict.
Wait, what? According to the Catalyst, the Reapers aren't the problem....it's that they were trying to solve an ongoing problem and the Catalyst's solution isn't working anymore.
Well first of all.....I (Shepard) brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth! I fixed the only conflict between synthetics and organics in the game...and now you're telling me that this conflict is the focus? No, the focus is that the Reapers are committing mass genocide and I'm trying to stop them! Hasn't this always been the problem? Sure, go ahead and invent a problem that the Reapers were created to solve and have failed to do so, but if you're going to do that, don't tell me its O vs. S. That's crazy talk.
This is my main problem with the ending. It feels like the Catalyst is from the wrong game. This is between me and the Reapers. If the Reapers have/had some secret agenda, it sure wasn't/isn't synthetics vs. organics.
Discuss.
When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?
Débuté par
KBronx17
, juil. 10 2012 09:33
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#2
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:38
Camronnba
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Yea dude +100000 the catalyst sucks, so does his logic, and synthesis is the stupidest idea I've ever encountered.
#3
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:39
Mazebook
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EDI / Quarians / Geth big part of the Narrative
furthermore
The reasoning of the Antagonist != focus of the narrative
The reasoning of the Protagonist = focus of the narrative
furthermore
The reasoning of the Antagonist != focus of the narrative
The reasoning of the Protagonist = focus of the narrative
#4
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:42
KBronx17
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maaaze wrote...
EDI / Quarians / Geth big part of the Narrative
furthermore
The reasoning of the Antagonist != focus of the narrative
The reasoning of the Protagonist = focus of the narrative
Yeah but EDI is your friend! There's no conflict between you (Organics) and her (Synthetic) after initial suspicions.
And okay, so the Quarians/Geth conflict was a major part of the narrative. But there were so many other, more important things as well.
And I don't understand your reasoning of the Antagonist/Protagonist point. Are you insinuating that the Catalyst is the Antagonist? Because the Catalyst doesn't use reason.
#5
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:44
wantedman dan
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Why would synthetic/organic conflict the main theme?
It's racist--sapient intelligence will always be in conflict.
It's racist--sapient intelligence will always be in conflict.
#6
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:44
digby69
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When Mac Walters became GOD sole lead writer.
#8
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:46
ISAWRIT
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It's not really the focus. Saving the galaxy by stoppping the Reapers is the focus; the reason for their existence just involves conflicts between synthetics and organics (which you experience through geth, quarians, rogue AIs, EDI, tra la la). The organics vs. synthetics thing is a theme that is an extension of the plot.
#9
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:49
CronoDragoon
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Actually, Mass Effect 1 produced that as a pretty damn important theme. The geth, for one. Sovereign's entire speech frames the conflict as machines vs. organics. And Saren's motivation is basically synthesis, which is also a framework of the organic/synthetic dichotomy.
Mass Effect 2 made the whole thing much more complicated and nuanced, to the point where the lines in the sand were no longer clearly drawn. Much hard work went into painting the geth as more than just "synthetic enemies." EDI helping the crew as well. At the end of ME2, it seemed much more of a "cool organics/synthetics fighting douche organics/synthetics" type of thing.
Mass Effect 2 made the whole thing much more complicated and nuanced, to the point where the lines in the sand were no longer clearly drawn. Much hard work went into painting the geth as more than just "synthetic enemies." EDI helping the crew as well. At the end of ME2, it seemed much more of a "cool organics/synthetics fighting douche organics/synthetics" type of thing.
#10
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:50
Tigerman123
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Ever since Jenkins got downed by a synthetic
Modifié par Tigerman123, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:52 .
#11
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:50
Mazebook
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KBronx17 wrote...
maaaze wrote...
EDI / Quarians / Geth big part of the Narrative
furthermore
The reasoning of the Antagonist != focus of the narrative
The reasoning of the Protagonist = focus of the narrative
Yeah but EDI is your friend! There's no conflict between you (Organics) and her (Synthetic) after initial suspicions.
And okay, so the Quarians/Geth conflict was a major part of the narrative. But there were so many other, more important things as well.
And I don't understand your reasoning of the Antagonist/Protagonist point. Are you insinuating that the Catalyst is the Antagonist? Because the Catalyst doesn't use reason.
EDI rebelled against Cerberus...and against the Alliance (luna mission)
The Catalyst is the Antagonist as he represents the reapers
The Catalyst has it´s reasons why he is doing what he is doing...he was programmed to find a solution to a given problem and viaribles.
Why he is doing what he is doing isn´t the focus.
Why Shaperd is reacting the way he does to whats happening ...is the focus of the narrative.
#12
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:51
DGMockingJay
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I agree. Organics vs Synthetics was never the main conflict. It was a side conflict, just like Genophage.
In ME1, u fight Geths only to realize, they are fighting u because they are being controlled by Reapers(somewhat). The fight u are fighting is given BY the Reapers. It wouldn't have dome to this if Reapers did not have intervened.
In ME2, u can play the 99% game without even seeing one Geth. Donate Legion to Cerberus and it would be like Geths did not even exist in ME2....
In ME3, u are told that Gtehs do not wish to fight and their goal is self preservation, just like us organics... U see how they are willing to cooperate, and they literally bend over backwards to accomodate the Quarians in their homeworlds.
But suddenly in ME3's ending, u are told that Geths are Bad, and conflict is inevitable.. WTF?? Geths do not fight Organics, Reapers make them fight each other, dammit.. At least in thsi cycle, it was like that!!
In ME1, u fight Geths only to realize, they are fighting u because they are being controlled by Reapers(somewhat). The fight u are fighting is given BY the Reapers. It wouldn't have dome to this if Reapers did not have intervened.
In ME2, u can play the 99% game without even seeing one Geth. Donate Legion to Cerberus and it would be like Geths did not even exist in ME2....
In ME3, u are told that Gtehs do not wish to fight and their goal is self preservation, just like us organics... U see how they are willing to cooperate, and they literally bend over backwards to accomodate the Quarians in their homeworlds.
But suddenly in ME3's ending, u are told that Geths are Bad, and conflict is inevitable.. WTF?? Geths do not fight Organics, Reapers make them fight each other, dammit.. At least in thsi cycle, it was like that!!
#13
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:53
Seival
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KBronx17 wrote...
When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?
From the very beginning of the Trilogy.
#14
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:53
Aldereth C
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Despite its self proclaimed god like intellect, Catalyst is just an AI created for the purpose of solving the (again self proclaim) inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic. What happened this cycle with the Quarian and Geth bears little importance. Heck, in fact any logical argument of any scenario does not make a difference.
The simiple fact is, you cannot argue that with this literal "child". If there is not any inevitable conflict then it serves no purpose and to the Catalyst, a synthetic, that just does not compute. It is not about right or wrong or logic. The darn thing is an insane AI to begin with.
The simiple fact is, you cannot argue that with this literal "child". If there is not any inevitable conflict then it serves no purpose and to the Catalyst, a synthetic, that just does not compute. It is not about right or wrong or logic. The darn thing is an insane AI to begin with.
#15
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:54
D24O
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A focus, yes. The focus? Until we meet Saren and Soverign.Seival wrote...
KBronx17 wrote...
When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?
From the very beginning of the Trilogy.
#16
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:55
CronoDragoon
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D24O wrote...
A focus, yes. The focus? Until we meet Saren and Soverign.Seival wrote...
KBronx17 wrote...
When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?
From the very beginning of the Trilogy.
How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...
#18
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:58
LogicGunn
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It was never a focus of the first two games. Sure there was a Quarian-Geth thing but it didn't span to ALL synthetics. That is why the ending feels so out of place and bizzare. No foreplay.
#19
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:58
Dutchess
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How do you know you've fixed the entire synthetic - organic conflict by brokering peace between the Geth and the Quarians? How do you know that amazing peace of you will last? What will happen when other synthetics are created?
The Catalyst doesn't care if there is no war between synthetics and organics at the moment. His statement is that the synthetics always will rebel against their creators, and that is what the Geth did, no matter what follows.
Also, you're fighting a near invincible race of machines. How's that not a focus on fighting synthetics? That Reapers are created with the use of organic juice is mostly irrelevant here. They're still considered machines.
And then it still doesn't matter if organic-synthetic was the center of the series or not. It's the center of the Catalyst's reasoning. That's why the Reapers are here. Because of the Catalyst's problem and his idea of a solution. The Catalyst's reasoning doesn't have to be what the entire ME trilogy is about to be of any relevance.
The Catalyst doesn't care if there is no war between synthetics and organics at the moment. His statement is that the synthetics always will rebel against their creators, and that is what the Geth did, no matter what follows.
Also, you're fighting a near invincible race of machines. How's that not a focus on fighting synthetics? That Reapers are created with the use of organic juice is mostly irrelevant here. They're still considered machines.
And then it still doesn't matter if organic-synthetic was the center of the series or not. It's the center of the Catalyst's reasoning. That's why the Reapers are here. Because of the Catalyst's problem and his idea of a solution. The Catalyst's reasoning doesn't have to be what the entire ME trilogy is about to be of any relevance.
#20
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:59
Mazebook
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DGMockingJay wrote...
But suddenly in ME3's ending, u are told that Geths are Bad, and conflict is inevitable.. WTF?? Geths do not fight Organics, Reapers make them fight each other, dammit.. At least in thsi cycle, it was like that!!
*facepalm* so rebellion is always bad ?...the Geth were forced by the quarians to fight them...it does not matter who shot first...who initated the conflict...it only matters what the endresults are...
The Geth rebelled without the influance of the reapers.
#21
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 09:59
CronoDragoon
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Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?
Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .
#22
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:00
MegaSovereign
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It was one of the major themes/conflicts that got resolved in ME3. Like the genophage arc.
Bioware intentionally made it clear that synthetics and organics don't always have to be in conflict with each other in ME3. The development of EDI's character and the Geth was intentionally there to make you question the Catalyst's misguided logic. Key word. Intentional.
Bioware intentionally made it clear that synthetics and organics don't always have to be in conflict with each other in ME3. The development of EDI's character and the Geth was intentionally there to make you question the Catalyst's misguided logic. Key word. Intentional.
#23
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:03
Dutchess
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CronoDragoon wrote...
Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?
Yeah, you know, Geth were only tools of the Reapers, and Reapers are organic slushies, so... ehh... Nope, sorry, can't explain it. I don't get it either.
#24
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:03
KBronx17
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CronoDragoon wrote...
Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?
The notion of combining synthetics and organics was introduced in the last ten minutes of the game.
Yes, we get it, there are synthetics and organics in the game. But are they fighting because synthetics always rebel against their creators? No! It just so happens that some synthetics fight for the Reapers, some fight for civilization.
Your argument would have a lot more weight if you never fought with organics. Legion even called the geth that fight with sovereign the heretics.
#25
Posté 10 juillet 2012 - 10:04
KBronx17
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renjility wrote...
CronoDragoon wrote...
Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?
Yeah, you know, Geth were only tools of the Reapers, and Reapers are organic slushies, so... ehh... Nope, sorry, can't explain it. I don't get it either.
Waiting on a Bill O'Reilly meme.
