311 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

They are, at best, a failed Synthesis. The Catalyst says himself that Synthesis cannot be forced; the Reapers clearly were. 

And yet it's totally cool for Shepard to do it when he's talking to GlowBoy. Yeah, this thing isn't consistent so meh.

[dreman9999]

alberto4395 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@]alberto4395 
The reapers are an example in themselve. They are example of Shackled AI cause destruction to organics.

The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict". Even if that was the theme the reapers are not part of creating that problem.

Yes they are. They are the ones that are currently making it worse.

[Mr Powers94]

alberto4395 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@]alberto4395 
The reapers are an example in themselve. They are example of Shackled AI cause destruction to organics.

The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict". Even if that was the theme the reapers are not part of creating that problem.

could we come to an agreement that The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict" due to the fact that reapers are their own classification of life.  BUt said conflict does exist through out the trilogy and the importance of the conflict vary's from person to person so it should be dropped from this conversation.

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:21 .

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The plot and story of ME3 are fine...It just the ending people has problems with.

ME3 killed ME2, the fact that the most important choice in the game becomes irrelevant is proof enough.

No, it didn't bacome irrlivent.Your just given more then one path in getting a result.

You destroy the base, Cerberus has the Terminator hanging in the wall...

What's the point of the choice?

And you are proving my point, "given more than one path to get a result"... same result. If any of the choices leads to the same result, the choice itself becomes irrelevant.

Modifié par mauro2222, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:22 .

[Bill Casey]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

They are, at best, a failed Synthesis. The Catalyst says himself that Synthesis cannot be forced; the Reapers clearly were. 

But if you can rewrite everyone to accept the reapers, the reapers won't have to force it any more...
People will happily march into their mortality transcending camps, where they can reach a level of existence we can't even imagine...

[DriftingMustang]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Actually, Mass Effect 1 produced that as a pretty damn important theme. The geth, for one. Sovereign's entire speech frames the conflict as machines vs. organics. And Saren's motivation is basically synthesis, which is also a framework of the organic/synthetic dichotomy.

Mass Effect 2 made the whole thing much more complicated and nuanced, to the point where the lines in the sand were no longer clearly drawn. Much hard work went into painting the geth as more than just "synthetic enemies." EDI helping the crew as well. At the end of ME2, it seemed much more of a "cool organics/synthetics fighting douche organics/synthetics" type of thing.

this

[CronoDragoon]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

They are, at best, a failed Synthesis. The Catalyst says himself that Synthesis cannot be forced; the Reapers clearly were. 

And yet it's totally cool for Shepard to do it when he's talking to GlowBoy. Yeah, this thing isn't consistent so meh.

Yeah somehow one dude making the choice for everyone makes it work. I don't know. The Catalyst couldn't find a Cypher in any cycle?

[dreman9999]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mr Powers94 ...

Allowing themselves to be tools is still letting the reapers dominate them. They are forgoing their free will.

but because their are geth that are not used as the reapers tools the geth have total free will as well the geth are not truly dominated until ME 3 where all geth are being directly contolled by the reapers. remember that whole plot line wher you hade to take out the reaper on rannoch. the heretics where not controlled in such a way or their would have been no heretics.

If you allow someone to use you as a tool...Your still a tool. You've given up your free will as long as you allow some one to use you as a tool.

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...


 I was talking about the main theme like the one used in the ending which is what this thread is about. I am sorry I wasn't clear on what I meant.

Okay, I think the disconnect here is that you believe when we speak of synthetic/organic conflict, you believe we are speaking specifically of the synthetic/organic conflict as the Catalyst defines it, which of course to him excludes the Reapers. Narratively, in looking at the series, we cannot exclude the Reapers, because they are set up as a race of machines doing horrible/nasty things to organics because they are organics. From the start the Reapers were set up to be killer machines out to get organics. That the Catalyst reframes the problem into his specific mode of examining the synthetic/organic problem does not mean that any synthetic/organic conflict earlier in the series is suddenly not contributing to the theme purely because it is outside his prism.

Sorry I think that is what this thread was about a while ago so I probably confused it. I still have to disagree that it would be the main theme though. Arguably in ME1 but not in the other 2.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The plot and story of ME3 are fine...It just the ending people has problems with.

ME3 killed ME2, the fact that the most important choice in the game becomes irrelevant is proof enough.

No, it didn't bacome irrlivent.Your just given more then one path in getting a result.

You destroy the base, Cerberus has the Terminator hanging in the wall...

What's the point of the choice?

And you are proving my point, "given more than one path to get a result"... same result. If any of the choices leads to the same result, the choice itself becomes irrelevant.

The fact wehave a a low ems destroy ans a lo ems control shows we do have more then one path. We can only control wht we do but not others. Inthe end the result of the choice in ME2 can lead to two different choices out of  6.

[KevTheGamer]

I think it always has been but it was in some ways lost/forgotten in Mass Effect 2 because we spent so much time getting to know specific characters that didn't matter as much as they made them out to in ME 2. ME 1 was totally about Synthetic vs Organic as well as an introduction to the ME universe the races in the galaxy and the Reaper story.

[Mr Powers94]

mistake meant to hit edit instead of qoute

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:29 .

[Mr Powers94]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mr Powers94 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mr Powers94 ...

Allowing themselves to be tools is still letting the reapers dominate them. They are forgoing their free will.

but because their are geth that are not used as the reapers tools the geth have total free will as well the geth are not truly dominated until ME 3 where all geth are being directly contolled by the reapers. remember that whole plot line wher you hade to take out the reaper on rannoch. the heretics where not controlled in such a way or their would have been no heretics.

If you allow someone to use you as a tool...Your still a tool. You've given up your free will as long as you allow some one to use you as a tool.

BUt you state that you are allowing or making a choice to be a tool their fore indicating freewill in the subject. a gun  does not kill because it cannot think, it is a tool. The geth can think and make choices wether or not to kill therfore they are not tools. Their ability to think and chose is shown by the divide between the geth and the heretics.

[DriftingMustang]

i thought the theme was synthetics vs organics from the beginning because mass effect was 100% organics good, 100% synthetics bad, ME2 there to blur the line by making you part synthetic and show that not are there only good and bad organics but the same goes with synthetics, ME3 was about your choice on the matter. yoou chose if EDI and joker were meant to be (or not), whether the quarians or geth blah blah blah

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...
Nothing in the end of mass effect say that co-existene with synthetics is not a rational moral goal. The problem is that the weapon you have in hand and the fact the machine you are fight are way too restrictive. The reapers are just doing what they are programed to do and the crucible was made by a bunch of AI hating organics.
That does n't mean co-exsistece is not possible. It jut means the being that cause the problem and the other beings that are giving you the salutio tothe problem are too unflexible to allow any other results.

This is exactly the point though isn't it? Synthetics and organics coexisting is still something we view as possible, it's only the catalyst that sees it differently. He flat out tells us he thinks organics are screw if him and the Reapers aren't around. So even if we believe differently we're still forces to act within these new confines, sprung on us within the last few minutes.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[dreman9999]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@]alberto4395 
The reapers are an example in themselve. They are example of Shackled AI cause destruction to organics.

The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict". Even if that was the theme the reapers are not part of creating that problem.

could we come to an agreement that The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict" due to the fact that reapers are their own classification of life.  BUt said conflict does exist through out the trilogy and the importance of the conflict vary's from person to person so it should be dropped from this conversation.

The reapers are still sysnthetic. It matter not how they are made and what they are made of. If it true that reapers are no sythetic then that would mean any machine with any organic comppund would not be sythetic. That would mean anything with plastic is not a machine.

[mauro2222]

I have never seen the conflict as organics vs synthetics. More like bad organics and bad synthetics vs good organics and good synthetics. I could care less about their origins or if they are made of carbon... if they want to kill you for stupid reasons, they are bad. Simple.

If you create organic life, the probability of rebellion is the same as with a synthetic. You created them, that doesn't mean they are going to follow your command, that's rebellion. So the thing comes down to "the created will always rebel against its creator" wich is not a theme at all.

Modifié par mauro2222, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[Bill Casey]

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers are still sysnthetic. It matter not how they are made and what they are made of. If it true that reapers are no sythetic then that would mean any machine with any organic comppund would not be sythetic. That would mean anything with plastic is not a machine.

Are the Quarians synthetics, then?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

alberto4395 wrote...

Sorry I think that is what this thread was about a while ago so I probably confused it. I still have to disagree that it would be the main theme though. Arguably in ME1 but not in the other 2.

Oh I agree it is not the main theme of the series - at least, not in the "synthetics and organics will always fight" version. I do think it was much more important in ME1 than in ME2. I also believe Rannoch was sufficient to wrap up synthetic/organic as a plot point, and that once we got to the Reapers we could just have an epic battle the same way the loyalty missions wrapped up all the conflicts in ME2 and allowed the Suicide Mission to just....be about the Suicide Mission. Would have been awesome for Retake Earth to just be about....Retaking Earth.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Nothing in the end of mass effect say that co-existene with synthetics is not a rational moral goal. The problem is that the weapon you have in hand and the fact the machine you are fight are way too restrictive. The reapers are just doing what they are programed to do and the crucible was made by a bunch of AI hating organics.
That does n't mean co-exsistece is not possible. It jut means the being that cause the problem and the other beings that are giving you the salutio tothe problem are too unflexible to allow any other results.

This is exactly the point though isn't it? Synthetics and organics coexisting is still something we view as possible, it's only the catalyst that sees it differently. He flat out tells us he thinks organics are screw if him and the Reapers aren't around. So even if we believe differently we're still forces to act within these new confines, sprung on us within the last few minutes.

But is that our fault? It just the way the catalyst is programed. He is not even the one that decided on the choices any way, it was the races that die before our cycle. 

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The plot and story of ME3 are fine...It just the ending people has problems with.

ME3 killed ME2, the fact that the most important choice in the game becomes irrelevant is proof enough.

No, it didn't bacome irrlivent.Your just given more then one path in getting a result.

You destroy the base, Cerberus has the Terminator hanging in the wall...

What's the point of the choice?

And you are proving my point, "given more than one path to get a result"... same result. If any of the choices leads to the same result, the choice itself becomes irrelevant.

The fact wehave a a low ems destroy ans a lo ems control shows we do have more then one path. We can only control wht we do but not others. Inthe end the result of the choice in ME2 can lead to two different choices out of  6.

And that makes the most important choice in the previous game... relevant? is just war assets, it can be replaced with anything, with the help of a guy who lost his wallet in a gas giant...

Saving Tali from exile and destroying the heretic geth, are relevant. The peace depends on it.

[Mr Powers94]

Bill Casey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers are still sysnthetic. It matter not how they are made and what they are made of. If it true that reapers are no sythetic then that would mean any machine with any organic comppund would not be sythetic. That would mean anything with plastic is not a machine.

Are the Quarians synthetics, then?

then are people with prosthetic limbs synthetics

[dreman9999]

Bill Casey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers are still sysnthetic. It matter not how they are made and what they are made of. If it true that reapers are no sythetic then that would mean any machine with any organic comppund would not be sythetic. That would mean anything with plastic is not a machine.

Are the Quarians synthetics, then?

Let's just say that any thing has to be assembled and  uses organic parts that  no long work as organic parts because they are not whole is a synthetic.

[Bill Casey]

I thought the theme was learning about different cultures and uniting a galaxy against an ancient cosmic horror...

I still think that...
I categorically reject the Catalyst's logic, and substitute my own logic...
The logic that it's the Reapers who are the existential threat, who need to be destroyed at any cost. Afterwards, I will work with the galaxy to rebuild the Geth people and usher in a new era where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully, free from the grip of the Reapers...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:36 .

[mauro2222]

And what it makes a synthetic? Humans are also machines, we are also made of organic and inorganic components, more inorganic than organic since our body is 70/75% water.

Modifié par mauro2222, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:37 .